Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: The Big Green Screen

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-01-2012, 11:22 PM:

Hey, everybody!

Just wanted to check in here and let you all know that I just worked my first day at the Big Green Screen in the Tom Ridge Environmental Center.

http://www.trecpi.org/learn/greenscreen.html

They've got a Kinoton FP-75E running 5/70 film. It's pretty neat. It will take some time just getting used to handling film that wide but, even on the first day, I can tell it's coming to me already. It just takes practice.

They run movies on the hour. Approx. 8 shows per day. The movies are only 50 min. apiece.

The operator does everything. Runs the booth, sells tickets, ushers, pops popcorn and helps out at the information desk. But it's a laid back atmosphere. Non-profit, non-commercial. Most of the other non-projection staff are retired volunteers. Very informal. Not like the Cinemark theaters at all.

I'll only be working part time for three days per week but it's a start. Hopefully, it'll let me get one foot out the door of the hell hole I've been working at. (Sigh of relief!)

If things work out... crossed fingers... there might be full time work that will allow me to leave the other place behind.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 04-01-2012, 11:49 PM:

[thumbsup]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-02-2012, 01:59 AM:

All the best, Randy. There is something very satisfying about running everything. Makes really vested in the venue. And yes, non-profit, non-commercial is a different animal altogether; I left commercial studio production when I as in my early 20s and haven't missed it a minute. Been in non-profit for my whole career. This gig sounds great -- hope you get there full time.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-02-2012, 07:26 AM:

Once you get used to 70mm you'll curse flaccid tiny 35mm when you try to thread it again.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-02-2012, 09:11 AM:

70mm : Movies :: 120 : Still Photography [Smile]

I use a Rolleiflex camera that takes 120 film so the scale is not totally alien to me. (120 roll film is approx 65mm wide.)

One cool thing about the Kinoton is that, when the projector starts up, the intermittent runs continuously until the machine comes up to speed. Then it starts moving in steps.

For some reason, the size of the loops seem to change a little bit once it starts up.

A question: Because the projector is driven by stepping motors instead of belts and gears, does this make it impossible to "bottom out" the intermittent?

On some projectors, if you thread way out of frame, with the framer racked one way or another, it is possible to get yourself into a position where it's very difficult to reframe.

Pressing the frame button on the Kinoton simply advances or retards the step of the intermittent drive motor. So, theoretically, one could roll the framing continuously without ever bottoming out.

Is that true or is there a limit to watch out for?

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 04-02-2012, 10:38 AM:

Randy,
Didn't you ask me about Presque Isle before? I was there during construction and every one seemed nice. I only went there to train the booth guys on the sound. Clyde McKinney and Steve Kitten did the physical install. They (Clyde and Steve) knew I was out of work and that I knew the sound system. I think there is a Tascam DA78HR and a Fostex D2424, along with an x-Frame. It's been close to 10 years now but I think that was what we were installing about that time.
Good luck,
Rick

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-02-2012, 06:17 PM:

Yes, there is a Fostex playback unit and a time code generator.

There is a Dolby CP-650 for 35mm and video playback.
(I now work at the only two places within 100 miles that have genuine Dolby equipment.)

QSC DCA amps and a Media Matrix.

There's other video and sound equipment I haven't been introduced to yet... Only worked there for two days, so far. [Wink]

P.S. The sound system contractor for this place is the same guy as Mercyhurst. [Shrug]

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 04-03-2012, 07:18 AM:

Why would they have a Sound System Contractor? Clyde did the Media Matrix programming and install. In my opinion he is one of the best. The good news is, he most likely has a back-up copy of the view files for the Media Matrix if this guy screws it up.

Good luck, Rick

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-04-2012, 11:34 AM:

Politics.

The entire building is outfitted with video, sound and multimedia. There are lecture rooms and exhibits with multimedia all through the place.

He doesn't really do much with the projection system. There are other contractors that take care of other systems. I know the projector is covered by another contractor.

BTW: After working there for only three days, I came back to Mercyhurst to work on the 35mm and things are already starting to look mighty puny compared to the 70mm stuff. [Wink]

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 04-04-2012, 01:29 PM:

My dad was a music editor at Fox back in the day working on 35mm stuff all day. Then he'd come home and occasionally play with 8mm stuff. He used to say it was like trying to thread spaghetti.

I was lucky to run more 70mm than 35mm when I started my projection career. It did feel weird to work with 35mm. Those were the days!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-04-2012, 04:35 PM:

It's a lot more difficult to get the wide film to bend around the rollers and sprockets. Not hard, per se, but you can't just twist it around the corner like you can with 35. You have to, sort of, coax it.

The Kinoton platter is a 4-deck model. There is less than a foot of headroom from the top of the film roll to the top of the arm that holds the deck above. You have to take out the platter ring before you place the brain or else there isn't enough room to get the ring out. If you are threading the bottom deck, you have to get down on your hands and knees and stick your whole head into the gap to reach the center. It's like trying to cast a fishing rod while standing inside a phone booth.

When I worked for Cinemark, we would occasionally have contests to see who could thread a projector the fastest. I once threaded an entire projector in less than 90 seconds. It takes me four or five minutes to thread up the 70mm.

Okay, I'm not trying to thread fast. I'm trying to do it right. Speed isn't the point even though I'm sure I'll get better with practice. However, when I came in today to thread up the movie at Mercyhurst, zip, zip and I was done.

It's sort of like the way a baseball player warms up with a donut weight on his bat. When he takes it off it's a lot easier to swing the bat.

8mm film would seem like dental floss to me, now! [Wink]

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-04-2012, 10:57 PM:

Don't worry about how long it takes to set up a show. It doesn't matter, as long as you're accurate and you don't cause a delayed start by taking too long. [Smile]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-04-2012, 11:45 PM:

There are three movies, played in rotation, on the hour. They average 45 to 50 minutes long.

If there are no tickets sold, the theater will be dark for that show. We don't even thread the show unless there is somebody to watch. If somebody comes, we thread up and run. If there is nobody by ten after, we call it.

Yesterday, we had a mom and two kids come to see "Volcanoes of the Deep" but the next scheduled show was "Beavers." It was the last show of the day so I made her a deal. IF nobody showed by ten minutes after, I would play "Volcanoes." Nobody else showed so I did play the movie she wanted.

Long story short... I don't try to thread too fast and I make sure I have double checked and triple checked but, due to the way business is, right now, I might have to run at the last minute.

Business is slow, right now. When the weather warms up and more people come out to Presque Isle, there will be more traffic and shows will run closer to schedule.

Until then, nobody really cares of a show starts a couple of minutes after the hour.

I don't want to thread fast. Let's say I want to thread "efficiently."

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 04-05-2012, 01:06 PM:

This reminds me of the scene in GUNG HO, where Michael Keaton is challenging his Japanese counterpart to a game of "pissing for distance," and the reply comes "how about pissing for accuracy?" or words to similar effect.

Posted by Jack Theakston (Member # 4484) on 04-05-2012, 02:11 PM:

Congrats, Randy... but when I saw the title of this thread, I thought you were talking about a trip to Skywalker Ranch!

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 04-05-2012, 03:14 PM:

Wow. I didn’t even know they made 5/70mm prints of all those IMAX / giant screen titles. Do you still get them for any new releases?

I know that ”Mysteries of the Great Lakes” was released in 2008, which sounds surprisingly recent. Or maybe the 5/70mm installation base is still larger than I thought.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-05-2012, 06:06 PM:

No, I just can't type. I should have said 8/70.

Manny, the contest I prefer is pissing for volume. [Wink]

Posted by Antti Nayha (Member # 4980) on 04-06-2012, 04:14 AM:

Ahh, you had me there. I also thought that the FP-75E is strictly a 35mm + 5/70mm combo machine, which helped to sell the story. But looking at the brochure now, it does mention that there is a 8/70mm model available.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-07-2012, 10:42 PM:

Until I started working there, I had only visited the booth one time. Previous to that, I had only read about these machines.

I knew what they were and knew, generally, how they work but I have never had hands-on time until now.

I have worked on various and sundry incarnations of Simplex, Century and Christie projectors, doing various tear-downs on them. I know them well but, being the first Kinoton I have ever worked with, it's going to take some time to get the particulars locked in my brain.

I did take the manuals home with me to read them before the first day I worked but, still, I'm bound to get details like 5/70 and 8/70 muddled in my brain until that stuff gets pounded through my thick skull.

I'm already breaking the five minute mark on threading. That's not to say that I'm trying to go fast. I'm only saying this as an indicator of how well I'm getting used to working on a new machine.

Some time next week (Monday or Tuesday) I should be working the whole place by myself. As such, I'll have to do everything myself from selling tickets, running the concession stand, policing the theater and operating the movies so I'll NEED to be able to work efficiently, with a moderate amount of speed, in order to keep up with everything.

Right now, the center doesn't get huge amounts of traffic. One of the docents stationed at the information desk can help out selling tickets or concessions. When it gets closer to the summer, when school lets out, we'll get more business and there will be a second person working with me.

Last Friday, there were 300 visitors to the center and about 100 movie tickets were sold. There's no problem for one person to handle that kind of work load until business picks up but, even so, I want to be able to do what's expected and not end up fumbling with film when the show is supposed to start.

I'm just saying this so you don't think I'm trying to get speed for it's own sake.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-10-2012, 03:48 PM:

Sounds like a fun job.

I have never seen an 8/70 installation. How does the sound work? Mag stripe? DTS? Mag dubber? Hard disk? Something else?

The electronic Kinotons are very different from mechanical projectors. I have worked with the 16/35 models, but not the 70mm models. If you are not used to them, weird things can happen that can cause an out-of-frame start even if you are sure that you threaded the machine correctly. Also, the noises can be disconcerting (the intermittent runs as a constant-speed sprocket until just a couple of seconds before the operator opens the douser). On the other hand, the picture is amazingly steady, and the takeup maintains constant tension from the beginning of the reel to the end, and the 2-bladed shutter becomes (by spinning 50% faster) a 3-bladed shutter under a certain frame rate (20fps, I think).

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-11-2012, 11:40 PM:

For the sound, the projector sends a pulse stream to a time code generator which sends the code to a Fostex digital playback unit. The start cue on the film also cues the generator to start counting.

Yes, the electronic intermittent is funky! It does start out constant speed then it switches to intermittent operation. It also seems to take a few seconds to get into a steady state after it changes modes. The projector starts, the gate closes and the film runs until the sprocket goes into intermittent operation then the film seems to flutter for a few seconds like the projector is trying to shift into gear. Then it steadies and runs normally.

The thing that's hardest for me to get the hang of is to time the intermittent correctly upon threading. It really has no dwell point like a mechanical intermittent. The pull-down is nearly instantaneous. You have to turn it to a pull-down and stop right at that point. Thread the upper loop at its minimum size and the lower loop at its maximum size. If you don't, the upper loop will grow too large and the film will flap and make noise. The lower loop can also grow too small and tug on the keeper, making more noise and causing all sorts of trouble.

I've made both of those mistakes already. Luckily, there is about one minute's worth of leader before the start of the feature. It was put on just for that purpose. It gives you a chance to stop the machine if you need to fix a mistake.

Yes, I have noticed that the projector can start out of frame even if you thought it was in time. I seem to be getting better at it but I don't know the cause. I think you have to do what I mentioned above; time the intermittent just to the point where it pulls down but don't turn the knob any farther.

Out of five shows last Tuesday, I think I only missed one.

I was joking with the guy in charge. I don't think I'll ever get used to the sound of 70mm film running through the projector. He said, if you work with 70mm long enough, it will be 35mm that starts sounding funny. [Wink]

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 04-13-2012, 07:16 AM:

Randy, I'm sure they told you, but just be sure if by some chance you have a film break and lose any frames you have to replace them with black leader. The time code generator (Aquilla?) is getting the pulses from the encoder and only counting frames, so missing frames will cause the sound to be out of sync. If you ever have to make up a print, don't leave any reference frames. The prints get shipped around on a single reel and aren't broke down.

I'm surprised they have you doing everything. Every 8/70 install I did, I stressed that there was always someone in the booth. We recommended a bathroom and phone in the booth and drew them in our plans and wiring schematics.

Have fun [beer]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 04-13-2012, 10:58 AM:

All shows start on the hour and last approx. 45 to 50 minutes.

I start the show and hang out to watch the show for the first five minutes or so from the booth. Then I go downstairs and man the front desk until for about 10 minutes when I go inside the theater to see the movie in person. At about 20 after, I go upstairs to check the projector and hang out for another five. About 10 minutes before the show is over I go back to the theater. By the time I'm done checking the screen, the movie is almost over so I open the outer door so people can leave.

Right now, business is slow so we don't run every show if there are no customers. I hang out to sell tickets until about 10 minutes before the show then go up to thread. (One of the people at the front desk is trained to sell tickets if I'm not there.)

Even though I'm starting to get faster at threading, I still go over the whole system before I leave the booth to go downstairs. I check with the front desk to see if any more tickets were sold. I sell some popcorn and usher people in.

At show time I go over the whole system one more time, roller for roller, through the entire film path before starting the projector.

We have a long leader on every movie. There's probably a minute's worth of film, at least. While the film is running up, I check the whole system CONTINUALLY until the start cue goes through. The automation beeps when the cue goes through.

Then I go to the window to see the show hit the screen. I look at the time code generator and playback unit to see that the time code is rolling an that both units are in sync.

I hang out for five minutes then do one last check of the system, roller for roller.

Repeat the same schedule for every movie.

Yes, he told me that we have to slug any parts of the film that are lost due to damage or film breaks.

However, in my experience, that projector just runs like a clock. It seems very stable and very reliable. I expect to have very little trouble from it and, as long as I go back to check the movie and the projector every 10 or 15 minutes, I don't expect to have any problems.

One movie we have, "Beavers", has been there for several months and there's hardly a speck on the print. There are a few dust spots and that's it. If you're not looking for them, you probably won't see them. We keep the PTR rollers clean and change them every show. (At least I do. [Wink]

) Customers with untrained eyes probably will not see any dust at all.

The guy in charge has been running the theater that way for quite a while, now and there seems to have been few, if any, problems.

I tell the guy that I am going to check the movie every 10 to 15 minutes but he just smiles at me. I still do it anyway.

Yes, there is a bathroom in the booth but I don't know about a phone. Everything is so close together, people just usually holler up the stairs if they need something.