Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Disney Approved Equipment

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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-12-2008, 11:32 AM:

This may fit better in another forum, but just so those of you not in the front office know, we just got a 3 page letter from Disney informing exhibitors that Disney digital product will only be shown on Disney approved equipment. And that soon as DCI compliant equipment becomes commercially available, Disney will only allow their digital to be show on DCI equipment. During the transition it must meet or exceed Disneys JPEG Inter-Op requirements.

A list of approved servers and projectors are included in the letter.

We're not digital, I don't care. How is this going to effect all of those out there who already invested in digital. And will it stop others from investing?

And, of course, Disney is still the most arrogant distributor in the biz.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-12-2008, 11:36 AM:

Is there any current 2K server/projector being marketed that is not on Disney's list of approved equipment?

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-12-2008, 12:04 PM:

quote: David Stambaugh
Is there any current 2K server/projector being marketed that is not on Disney's list of approved equipment?

I wouldn't know, but the "Bottom Line" from the letter says:

quote:
As DCI-compliant equipment becomes commercially available, Disney intends to refrain from any further support for interim-approved equipment

Their bold.

Sounds like a recipie for unpleasantness in the future

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-12-2008, 12:13 PM:

DCI compliant is something that entails more than a mere list of a feature set...there are security issues and even the requirement for an exhibitor to have a standard dial-up land line for use by the projector, believe it or not.

DCinema has also been a moving target for people that purchase the equipment...most lived through the whole MPEG era...not DCI compliant but the technology of the day. Everyone had to convert to JPEG and Disney was pretty brisk at only providing content in the JPEG format. As such, you had to upgrade right then and there if you wanted to play their content.

The "inter-op" thing most likely refers to the 3-D aspects...3-D is not defined in DCI...believe it or not. But Disney has sided with using the Inter-Op format that is likely to be (or very close to be)the SMPTE standard (not the same as DCI). For Hannah Montana, Disney required that all of the theatres to be Inter-Op compliant. Doremi servers were, by and large not inter-op compliant and HAD to be updated to play this movie.

Get used to it...the studios plan on controlling your theatres, technically and likely in other ways in the Digital era. With digital keys they already control when you can play the picture and on what screen (if they want, you need a key for each player and they are currently updated weekly).

From what I can tell, most equipment has various degrees of DCI compliance but very few if any are completely compliant for one reason or another...you'd have to ask the manufacturers to find out where they are weak on and how serious it is.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-12-2008, 01:30 PM:

If I thought Disney really cared about the exhibiton of their product I might enjoy this.But as they don't go around telling theatres they have to be SMPTE compliant, I have to agree it is all about control.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-12-2008, 01:48 PM:

Fox and Sony just tried to blow smoke about this to one of our customers and for now thats all it is is smoke. Indeed not a single server exists that has a built in "land line modem" that any studio can simply call up for placement of the KDM's. In fact that sort of "modem" gear is more or less obsolete and has been replaced by the high speed net. If any studio barks about it you can offer to install a computer that does have a dedicated dial in land line for them to FTP the KDM's to but thats about all you can offer... one chain here in town did just that and in two years its never been used even once. Remember that some of the DCI compliance stuff was written back in the late 90's in the days of "modems" but today its obsolete so you have studio people writing letters and making calls that don't even know what they are talking about, heck... making even that call will cost them a bundle every day... the internet is cheap! What will happen though is the older projectors that Christie, BARCO, and NEC produced will eventually have to be made DCI compliant so they wil work with the KDM's at all. The cost to upgrade a DP-100 to the present DCI compliance (what ever that really is) runs about 5 grand to do. There are several non-dci compliant projectors here in SLC that will have to be brought into spec sooner or later when the KDM's become inter-operative.

I have to laugh because down under in Austrailia with the E-Cinema system there is no DCI type crap nor any encryption/decryption going on at all.

quote: Steve Guttag
Everyone had to convert to JPEG and Disney was pretty brisk at only providing content in the JPEG format. As such, you had to upgrade right then and there if you wanted to play their content.

The MPEG to JPEG conversion was not really any headache for the end user or "customer" to speak of. MOst projectors required no more than a software upgrade which you'd want to do in many cases as its issued anyway. Servers were another story and had to be rebuilt and different boards installed. It was a pretty big headach for the manufacturers though many of whom went back and did the upgrades on their equipment for free... after the upgrades most if not all gear could play either MPEG or JPEG.

quote:
Personally, I would just love to see Disney (or, better yet, all of the distributors) actually inspect theatres and refuse to license their films to venues which do not meet SMPTE specs. Not that this will happen

Exactly! If they decide to do this they will instantly loose hundreds of important locations that gross high amounts. Although all locations that have digital still have kept one or two film projectors as well... HAving a line for each piece of booth gear is not only ludricrous but it would be technically a nightmare and also pretty sllllooooooowwww. Internet is pretty easy to secure and with IP addresses already assigned to all the gear dropping in KDM's is a breeze. Something tells me that all exhibitors will tell them to go take a hike.

Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-12-2008, 01:56 PM:

Does DCI actually require a dedicated POTS line for each machine, or just one DID number per projector and a handful of actual analog trunks to each theatre (or fiber or T1 or something else with an actual line capacity that is less than the number of projectors)? I'd hate to think of the cost of installing copper lines to each projector in a 30-plex.

So is Disney actually refusing to license their films (err...TV shows) to non-DCI-equipped venues? Or are they just saying that their file format may not play on older equipment and that they will not accept complaints from users of hardware that cannot play the files?

Personally, I would just love to see Disney (or, better yet, all of the distributors) actually inspect theatres and refuse to license their films to venues which do not meet SMPTE specs. Not that this will happen.

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 02-12-2008, 03:08 PM:

DCI spells out 1 phone line per building (or at least that's the way I read it as well as how it has been discussed in ISDCF).

I understand that currently only Fox is withholding digital "prints" due to no POTS line. (both Fox and Sony are the only 2 studios I know who are actually pushing for POTS lines since they see them as the most secure and least susceptable to DoS attacks) Basically they don't trust the exhibitor to secure their own Internet connection and keep it running reliably.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-12-2008, 03:09 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
So is Disney actually refusing to license their films (err...TV shows) to non-DCI-equipped venues? Or are they just saying that their file format may not play on older equipment and that they will not accept complaints from users of hardware that cannot play the files?

According to the letter:
"When digital cinema equipment that passes the DCI Compliance Test Plan becomes commercially available, Disney within a reasonable time will refrain from any further license of digital content for exhibition on non-compliant systems, including systems that meet only Disney's interim JPEG Inter-Op and Stereoscopic requirements."

and in a foot note:

"In order to receive Disney 3D content exhibitors must also use a Disney approved 3D Display system."

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-12-2008, 03:50 PM:

quote: David Zylstra
Basically they don't trust the exhibitor to secure their own Internet connection and keep it running reliably.

Like you can actually trust the phone company... Theaters will be down because of phone line problems...

Martin... would appreciate it if you could post the supposed "list of equipment".

Mark

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 02-12-2008, 05:10 PM:

C'mon Mark, how often do you lose dial tone these days?

I suspect there may be some anti-trust issues with Disney's requirements. Not that the movie business has EVER been guilty of that!

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 02-12-2008, 05:21 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Like you can actually trust the phone company... Theaters will be down because of phone line problems...

Yep, that's part of the exhibitor side of the arguement (as well as the cost - think of how many Regals are out there X approx $30 per line). . . . . TDC actually touted a 99.999% success rate sending KDMs over their satellite, at the same time they reported somthing like an 80% (? I think) success rate with the AccessIT modem sites (issues are usually fixed with a modem reset after calling the site).

Most exhibitors that have Internet also run their credit card processing via SSL - I think the constant traffic of CC processing would ensure that the Internet is working 99% of the time - where a bad POTS line for KDM delivery would only be discovered when the distributor tries to send a KDM.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-12-2008, 06:23 PM:

I think that part of the issue here may be that POTS lines are tariffed differently from DSL and other types of circuits. In general, when a POTS line fails (rare, but it happens), the LEC is legally obligated to fix it within a fairly short amount of time.

By contrast, with most DSL circuits, service is explicitly not guaranteed and the LEC could conceivably take a week or more to repair a failed circuit and not be in violation of its service agreement. This, incidentally, is why T1 circuits (which have similar uptime requirements to POTS circuits) are significantly more expensive than DSL circuits.

I don't know what type of Internet access is commonly provided to [dlp]

-equipped cinemas, but if it's DSL or cable service, the requirement for POTS lines or at least some sort of redundant Internet connection does make sense unless keys are distributed on physical media.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-12-2008, 06:41 PM:

quote:
C'mon Mark, how often do you lose dial tone these days?

I suspect there may be some anti-trust issues with Disney's requirements. Not that the movie business has EVER been guilty of that!

I didn't mean directly loose THE phone lines... but that does on occasion happen, mainly from accidents of all sorts. I also can't stop thinking of the entire phone switch building in Hinsdale, IL that burn't down back in the 88... the fire burned and literally destroyed one of the major central switch facilities... that in turn upset a good portion of phone and data traffic in the entire Midwest! I was also referring to what David mentions that the receiving end of things is more than likely going to be the culprit in the end. Important openings will be missed because some studio exec is not smart enough to keep up with technology... dial into modems are a thing of the past today!! FOr KDM's e-Mail is still the best method.. it's also the most sure method. One of our customers has his KDM's sent to three people including myself thus insuring they can not only get them but if there is a KDM problem I can look at it and see where the error is at thus arming them with the right info when they call the studio to say the KDM is bad. I have not had to do it yet but I know another tech that has.

You might find this article on Phone System Vuerability quite interesting.... its an old article so I won't copy it over here but it makes one wonder if the phone company has donme anything to better themselves or not. Phone System Feared Vulnerable To Wider Disruptions of Service

I agree on the anti-trust issue... this is really getting carried away and exhibitors will get fed up. I keep thinking about E-Cinema in Austrailia where they are neither encrypted nor KDM'd.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-12-2008, 07:59 PM:

The point of the Disney letter is that WHEN fully-DCI compliant equipment becomes available, THEN they 1. won't pay VPF and 2. won't supply content after a reasonable time unless you own it.

In other words, they support FULL DCI Compliance and will not support non-compliance.

Nothing made today is fully compliant, so, for now, fees and bookings will continue as before.

The obsolescence wars have begun! Louis

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-12-2008, 07:59 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Martin... would appreciate it if you could post the supposed "list of equipment".

Here is the link provided in the letter for current approved machines and all future improved machines(It also contains the letter):
http://www.bvpdsales.disney.com/DisneyApprovedDigitalEquipmentlist/

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 02-12-2008, 09:04 PM:

Now that I read it it's not too scary, just their way of saying that exhibitors who buy their own equipment need to have a plan to upgrade their equipment when final "DCI Compliant" versions are available. It also says that those who buy their own projectors are definitely SOL when it comes to VPFs - I think the gist here is that the studios are trying to play the ownership card when it comes to equipment they are paying VPFs for and this is Disney's way of trying to steer exhibitors to "deployment entities".

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 02-13-2008, 01:02 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I also can't stop thinking of the entire phone switch building in Hinsdale, IL that burn't down back in the 88...

A lot more redundancy has been built into the core telephone network in the 20 years since Hinsdale. An example would be where signaling transfer points are replicated using equipment from different vendors. This to add the assurance that a problem with one vendors equipment would be unlikely to affect the entire network. I do remember the Hinsdale incident and I do believe there was an element of human error associated with that failure.

quote:
dial into modems are a thing of the past today!!

FWIW, to the point of using dial-up to deliver keys: That seems just plain shortsighted given the state and reliability of data networks today. Dial-up should only be used as a fall back method of delivery should the primary method fail.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-13-2008, 01:31 PM:

quote: Rick Raskin
I do remember the Hinsdale incident and I do believe there was an element of human error associated with that failure.

Rick,
This was a case where duplicate equipment would have made no difference, it too would have all melted together with the other manufacturers gear... The human error in this case was that there was no way adaquate in the building to immediately extinguish the fire and who ever reported it waited an hour too long.

It not so much the equipment redundancy factor in a building that the phonee company should worry about... its not having all your eggs in the same building!!

Mark

Posted by Andy Frodsham (Member # 4061) on 02-13-2008, 02:15 PM:

and we are dumping trusty 35mm (with superior picture quality) for all this!!!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-13-2008, 02:38 PM:

quote: Andy Frodsham
with superior picture quality

I wish I could agree... the last 6 months have seen drastic decliine in print quality with many prints having no better than mediocre 16mm image quality. Decent 35mm prints seem to be getting scarcer, perhaps this is happening on purpose.

Mark

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 02-13-2008, 03:10 PM:

There is not much you can do if an end office goes kaput.

Back on topic: Wasn't there a standards body that was setting requirements? DAVIC or something like that?

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 02-13-2008, 03:13 PM:

If 35mm print quality is declining, it might be more to do with diversion of attention and resources to digital, and less attention to 35mm quality control etc. I doubt it's a conspiracy. But who knows.

Posted by Ben Wales (Member # 92) on 02-13-2008, 03:26 PM:

quote: David Stambaugh
If 35mm print quality is declining, it might be more to do with diversion of attention and resources to digital, and less attention to 35mm quality control etc. I doubt it's a conspiracy.

I expect the real signs of this is when Print Numbers are reduced, I can see more loosers than winners on D-Cinema (Digital Video) as at the end the day the Cinema Exhibutor will have to bear the high costs for this equipment and what about the small Cinema Independents that strugle now?.

Will they decline or go bust......

Posted by Brant Veilleux (Member # 2877) on 02-13-2008, 04:06 PM:

quote:
and we are dumping trusty 35mm (with superior picture quality) for all this!!!

Unfortunately, I feel the Digital Intermediate is doing more of a disservice to film than D-cinema. In addition, I agree with Mark in regards to poor registration because of the high speeds the prints are made these days. Throw in the fact a lot of scope films are shot on super 35, and not using an anamorphic.

I'll take D-Cinema just keep the whole process all the way through presentation Digital. Film done right will always beat out digital. It just doesn't seem to be done right too often any more.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-13-2008, 05:36 PM:

It will be interesting to see if print quality improves or declines as print quantities decline. In general, the smaller labs seem to make better prints. In general, prints from Du Art, Alpha Cine, Foto-Kem, and smaller labs will completely blow away anything from Technicolor and Deluxe.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-13-2008, 07:27 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Technicolor and Deluxe.

Thats for sure... Technicolor Dailies from New York were always by far the worst that could ever be produced!! An old friend at BHP Products told me that they not only didn't own the alignment jig for the BHP panel printer but that the New York lab got all the throw away stuff from L.A. [Eek!]

. It sure showed... literally...

Mark

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 02-13-2008, 09:57 PM:

Since somebody mentioned that there's apparently only a requirement for one analog phone line per building it sounds like either you only have to connect one server to the line and it'll transfer keys across your network, or you're allowed to use ATAs for each of the servers (which could get a little expensive given that most theatres only have 16 or 24 extension phone systems).

In either case, I'd prefer external modems than the built in ones that Mark suggested he'd be expecting to see.

Personally, I'm fine with a POTS line requirement over an internet based method if the failure of either means it's going to cause problems. Most theatres have cheap internet connections with lousy MTTR terms. For the theatres that don't have cheap internet connections (say four wire SDSL with a better MTTR or the very common ISDN situation) I wouldn't really care either way provided that their internet connected network isn't a Mickey Mouse mess like is often the case.

POTS lines are fine and are still in very widespread use in (even new) industrial equipment. If data rates weren't at issue I'd prefer them for credit card transactions (but data rates are an issue for CC transactions since they're time critical). POTS lines are reliable, cheap internet connections are not. I think most people would be surprised how often cheap internet connections are down if they were to monitor them.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-14-2008, 08:57 AM:

The other method of setting up one puter on that single line as the chain here has done for the distributers to call in the KDM's too seems the best route to me... although in two years it has not been used. That puter could easily have its own simple network going to each server running a program to feed KDM's to appropriate servers when they arrive. Funny thing is that I could see the manufactrurers comming out with a whole new product... A KDM Library! [Roll Eyes]

If I'm not mistaken this is something along the lines of what the DTS FilmStore can already do.

Mark

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 02-14-2008, 08:54 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
WHEN fully-DCI compliant equipment becomes available, THEN they 1. won't pay VPF

Pardon if I'm having a dense moment here, but... what does the VPF have to do with DCI compliance? I thought VPF was supposed to be a "transition motivator" for otherwise-reluctant exhibitors.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-15-2008, 05:08 AM:

Funny thing is, the letter says that once fully compliant equipement is "readily available," Disney will not service digital to theatres with non-compliant equipment installed, BUT, no where do they menition that they will not supply 35mm prints. And they are quick to add that after you've spent all that money to get your booth filled with fully DCI compliant equipment, Disney will STILL look at you as the same sorry schmuck as they've always looked at you and your huge investment will not give you any advantage over the guy who is still running film. Disney makes it very clear that even with all your money invested in fully compliant DCI equipemnt, they may STILL not book their pictures with you. Wow....how's THAT as an inscentive to make everyone run out and take a second mortage on their theatres! Seems to me this kind of thing would stop digital installs dead in their tracks.

So all those Regal and Landmark and the rest who jumped on the not-so-terribly-compliant equipment "roll-out" may not be able to play Disney pictures (and I assume other studios will follow) unless they now eat a substantial additional expenditure to upgrade all those spanking new (but, alas, still not compliant) video projectors, computer servers and the rest yet AGAIN?

Hmmmm....too bad the studios didn't make that crystal clear when they were all waxing orgasmic about how scratchless and fadeless and jitterless all that non-compliant equipment was....strange they didn't explain that in two years or less, they wouldn't be booking any product in a theatre who listened to their laudate's and invested in that equipment.

And of course the kicker is, at least if you can read between the lines where Disney doesn't make any reservations at all in the letter about them not booking 35mm once DCI compliant equipment is in the market place. So, although Disney will NOT book their titles to the guy who still only has non-compliant equipment in his booth, evidently they WILL let the guy who hasn't spent a penny on digital play their product in 35mm.

I hear some theatre owners laughing; I hear some theatre owners crying.

[ 02-15-2008, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Frank Angel ]

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 02-15-2008, 09:26 AM:

Frank:
That was pretty much my impression, too. Unless, of course, Disney is going to go all digital. Then the film guys are screwed. Disney is the company I can most see doing this. The first test will probably be the next regular classic re-release (let's say Bambi). Disney will re-release Bambi exclusively in digital and promote it as such. Probably even promote DCI they same way THX used to be hyped. Those not on board miss the boat. It then comes down to whether Disney can make money despite a few pissed off theatres (Disney has never worried about pissing off anyone). If it works, they rapidly go full digital.

As an art house, it doesn't effect me unless Miramax goes full digital. If they do, I see them losing about half of their small venues. Which would cause them to lose, I dunno, about a minute's sleep some afternoon.

I agree with Steve it is really about control. My paranoid fantasy is Disney, or some congregation of studios, will develop a proprietary system and the HD/Blu-Ray wars can play out on the movie screens of America!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-15-2008, 05:55 PM:

I agree on the control thing, if they would just control the fact that the majority of bootleg "screeners" actually eminates from the studios, labs, and editing rooms themselves things might be a little more leinient for exhibitors.

As for upgrades to exisisting gear.. thats a ways off but not really that big a deal siince its thousands of units not hundreds of thousands like an auto recall... or stuff with lead paint being rounded back up by the millions of units to ssend back to the reds... this is small stuff comparatively.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 02-16-2008, 07:11 AM:

Mark; all that matters is "Who gets the invoice." It will be bad if you (theatre owner) have to pay---twice or more. The same concept as if you wreck a car you are still in debt for and have to go in debt again for the second car. Now you have TWO car payments

Sure makes the case for FILM (and keeping your money in your pocket until this settles out.) Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-16-2008, 10:17 AM:

I think that may be the case with some manunfacturers gear...BARCO doesn't seem to stand behind their stuff as well as others do... but take Dolby for instance... when things went to JPEG they went around and switched out all the Show Players, now they are sending out kits to replace the Promise drive bays with the more accepted CRU units. I think you'll see other manufacturers do the same... I don't think its a wait till its fixed sort of thing at all... I think its more like do buisness with manufacturers that stand behind their product. In this thing Access-IT may be the worst hit since they own all the Carmike gear and many others...

Its actually a very wise move for medium to large chains to be installing "some" diigital systems now so they can learn to deal with its very differing aspects and problems before they are completely digital... things will go much smoother down the road for the ones that do this today.