Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: What can I expect from the Christie DLP projectors?

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Posted by Paul Van Dusen (Member # 3640) on 12-13-2007, 10:44 PM:

I'm not sure how many of you have read the theatre closing thread, but my little discount that was all 35mm is closed, and i'm being transfered to the Carmike 8 in Lynchburg,VA which is all digital and has i think 4 dual purpose auditoriums. I already know from talking to other managers in my district that Christie's service technicians leave something to be desires, especially considering the fact that the 3 35's i'm going to have are Strong Simplex 1060's. But on the whole, um, well, how the hell do you run these digital things? I've never used one and frankly i'm a little gun shy. I can see myself actually looking forward to getting a few acutual film prints so i don't have to deal with the digital. Which is funny, that's the exact opposite position from every other manager i've met. lol

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-13-2007, 11:34 PM:

Training is one of the problems D-Cinema presents.... Its really up to the chain and individual theater you work for to see to it that you're properly trained. To be honest its actually much easier than dealing with film systems. I will admit that the automation system Carmike chose is a little funky in an of itself but its not too hard to grasp. If they don't provide you proper training you can always post questions digital related at Digital Cinematics . The site is but a few days old however there is a thread just for Christie stuff. It is kept watch by several experienced install techs in the Digital Cinema end of things.

Mark

Posted by Paul Van Dusen (Member # 3640) on 12-14-2007, 02:06 AM:

Thanks Mark, i've added it to my favorites.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-14-2007, 03:45 AM:

Thanks Mark; there's very little there yet, but I'll be keeping an eye on it.

Posted by Chad M Calpito (Member # 3736) on 12-14-2007, 01:10 PM:

Thanks for the Link, Mark. I, too, added to My Favorites since I don't know if Reading Cinemas will be doing some upgrades to DLP Digital. Oh well, at least will be an educational experience for me. [Big Grin]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 12-14-2007, 01:19 PM:

Mark, we are already working on moving all D-cinema related topics into one dedicated forum here.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 12-14-2007, 04:26 PM:

quote: Paul Van Dusen
But on the whole, um, well, how the hell do you run these digital things? I've never used one and frankly i'm a little gun shy.

The Christie/AIX software on the Doremi server is pretty simple to use. If you have ever messed around in any time line based programs (audio editors, video editors, Flash, etc.) this will seem similar, but more simple looking. I think anyone with a modest amount of computer literacy could handle it.

My only criticism is the LCD monitor built into the Doremi server is pretty small. If your eye sight isn't great then don't forget your reading glasses!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-14-2007, 07:23 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Mark, we are already working on moving all D-cinema related topics into one dedicated forum here.

That would be a good idea Brad.... I look forword to seeing it up and running.

Mark

Posted by Paul Van Dusen (Member # 3640) on 12-15-2007, 12:36 AM:

Well, the most i've done is some video editing with the production group me and my friends started, but that was adobe premiere, hopefully it shouldn't be too hard to build a show list with that kind of background. Which reminds me, if you guys wanna check out our stuff head over to Ravenous Beaver Productions and lemme know what you guys think. Well, I got to get some sleep, i have to head over to our Wilson,NC theatre and take notes on how to run digital before i make the move on sunday. Thanks again guys.

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 12-15-2007, 03:29 AM:

Alas, AccessIT TCC is not as simple as it could be.

Of all of the user interfaces in D-cinema, AccessIT's TCC (theater command center) software seems to be the most redundant and complicated software out there.

Doremi's Cinelister program is also more-user friendly and allows you to utilize more of the features and cues than TCC.

Ask anyone who has used Dolby's show manager software and the TCC they will tell you that Dolby wins. Dolby's show editor, scheduler, and setup are all much more refined and simpler than TCC or Cinelister. Functionality in the Dolby system is hard to beat when coupled with an NA-10, but Cinelester offers more integrated projector control.

All 3 take place in a Lunux environment, with a custom designed GUI.

My opinion: There's pluses and minuses to all that I've used, but overall Dolby offers the best user interface and functionality.

Paul, More than likely you will have little to do with starting shows. The Scheduler will be used to automatically start digital shows, with you only changing programs on the Automation, or threading the occasional 35mm presentation. Cleaning will still need to be done from time to time to ensure proper operation, but your Booth duties will be limited from what you are used to.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-15-2007, 04:22 AM:

quote:
My only criticism is the LCD monitor built into the Doremi server is pretty small. If your eye sight isn't great then don't forget your reading glasses!

When I worked at the Clocktower it was particularly bad. In the AA DSN standard package for the NEC projector the Doremi is mounted quite low down, and looking down at a steep angle to it doesn't really work, so you have to either bend down, or squat down to use it. Because of the rather awkward existing space that the projection box had to be squeezed into there is only a narrow gap between the digital machine and the rewind bench which is behind it; It's even worse when you're somewhat large in width, as I am. They ended up putting a VGA monitor and USB keyboard and mouse on the projectionist's desk, and using those, which is much better, but I'm told you have to be careful, as pressing the spacebar will stop playback. I haven't actually tried this.

There are some other things that I don't like; I would rather see something faster than USB 2.0, probably E-SATA, for loading content onto he system. You cannot see the picture on anything except the cinema screen; I would like to be able to put it on a monitor, so you can see what you are about to screen. For example, there were two versions on the same film on the system, and I couldn't tell which was which.

There is a considerable delay in opening and closing the douser; when starting playback there is often some light flashes, disturbance, towards the top if the picture. It's not very bright, but you can see it on the curtains. Obvious answer would be to keep the douser closed until this has passed, but the delay in opening it, plus the lack of a picture on a monitor makes it difficult to get the timing right. It's much easier to work with normal film projectors.

Changing over from film to digital at the Clocktower can be a bit tricky, and it's something we so on almost all digital shows, as the adverts and trailers are on film. As the last trailer ends you need to: mute the sound, close he curtains and close the changeover shutter on the projector, then possibly move the masking; there are controls for all of this next to each film projector, so no problem so far. Then go to desk to start digital show, taking care when passing through the narrow gap behind the digital machine. Activate the local fader button, check the fader level and switch to Digital 1 on the DMA at the sound rack on the way. This 'un-mutes' the sound, but since there's no noise, scratches, splices etc. as there would be with film this doesn't matter. Once the show is running, walk back to the digital machine and open the douser. Walk to panel by film projector to open curtains. At some point you also need to take the houselights right down, and this can only be done from the panels by each film projector. I tend to do it before leaving the trailers projector, which is a bit early, but the alternative, when you get back to the panel to open the curtains, is a bit late. Because of the way the projection room is arranged it's bit awkward. Not a fault with digital as such, but with the space into which the projection room had to be fitted when the cinema was built, in 1995, and the fact that no provision was made for a digital projector at that time, so it had to be installed in a less than ideal position.

Changing over from digital to film is rather easier, as you're changing to a machine which has a full control panel next to it, but I've only had to do this a couple of times.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2007, 07:19 AM:

quote: Stephen Furley
There are some other things that I don't like; I would rather see something faster than USB 2.0, probably E-SATA, for loading content onto he system.

I agree and this is another aspet where Dolby wins... although they are in the midst of changing over to a different and less expensive hot pluggable drive bay instead of the almighty super expensive Promise Drive Bay. Yes, Dolby has integrated both USB and a hot plugable drive bays right into it's servers front panel. The majority of prints still arrive on USB Drives for the moment but Technicolor is completely getting away from USB and hopefully other distributers will follow... USB is a true bottleneck right now with ingest times occasionally exceeding 4 hours for a 2 hour print! Any theaters having more than three D-Cinema systems really should have installed a Show Library anyway as this allows content to be ingested while all the systems are running... then file transfers can take effect in half real time over the theter network... at least with the Dolby its half real time.... Now all those Doremi Servers that have been installed will need yet another add on piece for a hot swappable drive if the move away from USB takes place... which it undoubtdly will. Doremi doesn't seem to have the forsight that Dolby has in things like this and is the main reason we didn't go with the the Doremi on any of our D.C. installs....

BTW: I would suggest that anyone here not familiar with the Dolby Server Gear get familiar with it and then start screaming at their present server vendor/provider to get with it and head for the same playing field. If a standard for how servers should operate came forth Dolby would win the game by at least 20 points.

Mark

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 12-15-2007, 09:51 AM:

The problem with using a hot swap sled is there will never be a universal one - i.e. the old promise caddies most likely won't work with whatever new sled/caddy Dolby chooses. Distribution needs a single format to send drives out in - getting all server manufacturers to agree to use one sled/caddy manufacturer would be extremely hard and then what happens when the manufacturer redesigns a new model sled/caddy that won't work with the old one? USB was chosen only as a "least common denominator"

Ingest time depends more on file size than movie length - some encodes with variable bit rates result in smaller files (i.e. Harry Potter was 50-60GB) . . . . with the most recent AccessIT software the network transfers run 45min - 1.5hrs depending on file size (IF the target DoReMi has SATAII drives).

I've already screamed plenty at AccessIT about needing a better option, but the DoReMi is built around an off the shelf product that doesn't have room for removeable drives - and with the TMS you only have to wait for ingestion once and the network does the rest - I doubt they can change anything now that DoReMi has FIPS certification (besides adding on something external).

If we are on the subject of shortcomings - I'd like to see Dolby add an analog output - why should I be required to buy a DMA8+ (or USL equivalent) to adapt the digital output if I already have a processor with 6 channel input? The DoReMi has both analog and digital outputs so without any additional purchases it will work with any processor that can take in an external 6 channel source.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2007, 04:02 PM:

quote: David Zylstra
The problem with using a hot swap sled is there will never be a universal one - i.e. the old promise caddies most likely won't work with whatever new sled/caddy Dolby chooses.

Actually that appears to be something that both Technicolor and Doby are trying to stadardize. Dolby has slightly under 1K units out there and Dolby is releasing an upgrade kit to the new style drive bay for existing units after the 1st of the year. The new drive bay is a CRU-Dataport brand I believe its a model 10. I just installed a Showstore that has one of the new bays. The problem with the Promise stuff is that you have to purchase the hot bay AND the carrier together.... its great stuff built like a tank but very expensive... not practical for large quantities involved in film distribution. So the switch to CRU who sells just the bay or just the carrier makes alot of sense The whole Model 10 hot bay and carrier go for as low as $40.00 for the pair in single quantity so I think its safe to say the carrier is around the 20 dollar price range.

The reason for the inclusion of a seperate D to A is partly because of the CP-650 and a new A chain less version of the 650 processor to be installed in booths without film. Like the Dolby Server system its pretty hard to beat the CP-650 in terms of overall quality and the way the CP-650 integrates via ethernet into the server system is indeed an advantage over the Doremi.

As for the D to A issue... I think you will see D to A's that are even more simplified than both the USL and the DMA-8 in the near future... for booths with no other requirements as other manufacturers jump on the equipment bandwagon. But if a location gets into satellite feeds and or other sources like the on going Opera stuff that is gaining alot of popularity then having that outboard decoder is a huge advantage because you will be using it's extra Digital Audio Inputs!!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-15-2007, 04:37 PM:

Well, a CP650 with an AES switcher would effectively expand its capabilities too (more sources) to use the 4xAES input (Option I/O). To me, the DMA8Plus mostly brings affordable Dolby-E to cinemas but how many cinemas handle Dolby-E tapes? That is a broadcast type.

The truth in the matter is, once you get things as straight AES audio, you've opened up the cinema audio world to all of pro-sound too.

For instance, I could use say three Rane RPM26Z processors that have an AES input as well as two analog inputs each (so 6 digital channels and 6 analogs at the same time) and have 18 analog outputs to feed the amps/monitor. Inside the RPM I could have parametric EQ (or graphic, take your pick or have both), crossovers....yadda yadda yadda... and then link them all with a common fader knob (or knobs) without ever using a cinema brand product and spend less money doing it in some cases. There are countless other ways it can be done...after all, the server has good old AES digital audio.

I'll be surprised if Dolby can shed enough $$$ from the CP650 by just omitting the film functions. About all that is different is the Cat 773 would be omitted (Dolby Digital for film). The Cat 791 would be needed for AES inputs. Then you will be getting into a JSD80 that HAS the film analog stuff but STILL would cost less.

If I were Dolby, I'd have a version of the server that has the B-chain of the CP650 in it. The incremental increase would be less than having a whole new unit and they could use their good name to play on wanting the Dolby tried and tested B-chain with less installation time than separates. Likewise, an optional input could be utilized for alternative content.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-15-2007, 09:29 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I'll be surprised if Dolby can shed enough $$$ from the CP650 by just omitting the film functions.

I think you'll find the new version of the 650 is a price wash. Omitting the A-Chain stuff is replaced by the AES input stuff and pricing is almost a wash there. I don't think you'll find Dolby building B Chains into servers... its just not the way most of the pros or broadcast folk work... seperates always.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-16-2007, 12:52 AM:

The problem is the board they would be loosing sells in the $3K range for a board that sells in the $1K range or about a potential 2K savings...now compare that to alternatives and the CP650 comes out pricey.

Steve

Posted by Paul Van Dusen (Member # 3640) on 12-26-2007, 04:24 PM:

quote: Tristan Lane
Paul, More than likely you will have little to do with starting shows. The Scheduler will be used to automatically start digital shows, with you only changing programs on the Automation, or threading the occasional 35mm presentation. Cleaning will still need to be done from time to time to ensure proper operation, but your Booth duties will be limited from what you are used to.

Well, I just spent a week there while I was looking for somewhere to live. Wow. That's all I can really say. The makeup tables for the 35's don't work, the christie tech has no idea how to fix it. Hell, he didn't even know how a film was built up. They really need to train these guys in 35 if they're going to be servicing them. The projector in booth 1 doesn't work on any of the timer systems, booth for keeps blowing the driver in the center channel speaker, booth 3 won't open the douser or switch to 6 channel digital on it's own, the surrounds in booth 8 work roughly half the time (a problem that never happened until the digital was installed). The sad part about all of this, the tech either tries to claim it's not his job to work on the speakers, or he tells me to cycle the power on everything to fix the problems. After i've reset the projector and the doremi 4 times, a fifth time isn't going to fix it. Sorry for the rant, but i hate digital and that booth is completely stressing me out. I miss my old tech from Shaver Sound with a passion. [Frown]

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-26-2007, 05:33 PM:

Sad.....I have done several service calls, in 2007, for post digital installs; where outside of the digital projector and server, the "tech/installer" was seriously deficient.Simple things as ground loops, lack of ground, poor cabling, improper sound crossover points blowing up drivers, no experience in interfacing with existing equipment.....let alone a 35mm Fillum projector [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 12-27-2007, 04:39 AM:

quote: Paul Van Dusen
Sorry for the rant, but i hate digital and that booth is completely stressing me out.

Don't blame digital, since it is not the reason this theater is in such poor shape. Can you imagine what the on-screen presentation looked like when they were running 35 exclusively?

Admittedly, There is a lack of 35mm service ability among many of the technicians from that organization. Many of the technicians come from an IT background an don't even know what an intermittent movement is.

Keep in mind: Your attention to details like the ones you listed in your previous post, and your desire to fix them will do nothing but improve the presentation at that theater. Do what you can to fix the issues there, take ownership, and you will feel much better about making a difference. If the center driver keeps blowing, offer to help fix it. If the MUT is broken, break open the manual and try to isolate the problem.

Should you prove your worth around there, and learn as much as you can about the digital system, your skills will be desirable among many service organizations and can move beyond.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-27-2007, 10:58 AM:

Or you could just quit and go work at some place that cares. It sounds as if that venue will put on a crappy show regardless of the format in use.

Posted by Paul Van Dusen (Member # 3640) on 12-27-2007, 02:19 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Or you could just quit and go work at some place that cares. It sounds as if that venue will put on a crappy show regardless of the format in use.

Actually, after the staffing changes I'm going to make, i should be able to crank up the presentation quality fairly well. I've been there a week and the assistant already quit after he'd been there for 11 years under lax management.

Posted by Kyle Anderson (Member # 3504) on 12-29-2007, 03:53 AM:

As a fellow Carmike employee both blessed and cursed by Christie's techs - we were among the first Carmikes to install CP2k's, and their guinea pigs for a year or so - I wish to you the best of luck in shaping up your theatre. You're absolutely right about Christie as well - they contracted with Carmike to service systems they don't train their techs to handle - especially note the "call the tech department for a real specialist to walk you through the procedure" directive. /sigh

As it is, Christie techs ARE responsible for fixing everything relating to presentation with the exception of electrical and masking system/screen repairs (call people who actually know what they're doing for that). This includes everything about your 35mm systems - if the tech they send knows less about it than you do, call Christie NOC and ask for the supervisor, then complain. It works - I've done it, and guess what... the bullshit ended and our stuff got fixed! Christie has some serious employee training and retention problems (working people 70+ hrs a week salaried will do that), but they are contractually obligated to see to it that the work is done and will step up if you make yourself a squeaky wheel.

As far as Carmike goes, you didn't mention if you're a projection manager or a complex manager (though a 4-screen would imply you're a CM), but either way make sure to make your District Manager aware of these presentation issues - he/she has MUCH more ammunition to deal with the problems at the corporate level than you do- especially since much of the time the guys "upstairs" don't even know the problems exist without you telling them (if only Christie did... ha!). For example, we've had a few masking motor death issues that were ping-ponged with christie for about 3 months until our DM heard about it; they were fixed/replaced in 5 days.

As far as automation goes; my opinion is that you start every show yourself standing at the projector- roughly 5% of the time the bulb won't strike on the first two tries, and requires an operator to fix. Also, the next time a tech is in, get them to tell you the service password to the 4x4 projector consoles so you can do things like *turn on the screen saver*.

On the presentation side, once you get the technical issues straightened out (all of which should be blamed solely on the Christie installers - annoy the hell out of them until they fix it), the digitals deliver very, very, very consistent performance - they just require a lot more initial tweaking than 35mm does. Once this is done, you should find that you can spend more time worrying about clean bathrooms than whether the moneymakers are doing their job. [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-29-2007, 10:17 AM:

quote: Paul Van Dusen
Actually, after the staffing changes I'm going to make, i should be able to crank up the presentation quality fairly well. I've been there a week and the assistant already quit after he'd been there for 11 years under lax management.

Lax management literally ruins a location! This same thing happened at one of the Cineplex's that AMC took over not far from my home... just a short while after they took over all of a sudden the employees were expected to work and most of them quit! Micro management drives some people to leave... but it will literally filter out the daudlers! Personally I think that style of management is a good thing. The booth in that theater is now much cleaner as is the equipment... the projectionists have been through AMC's training school and the on screen presentations have gone up in quality considerably. The real workers have stayed and are actually working.

As for the Christie techs... Most of the good techs are either in buisness for themselves or working for a dealer making good $$. All Christie could attracct at the salary they were offering were IT guys already being overworked at a low salary. Christie has a long obligation ahead of them and they'd best not burn bridges by overworking the techs they do have at 70 plus hours a week or they will be facing even tougher times hiring competant people down the line.

Mark

Posted by Paul Van Dusen (Member # 3640) on 12-29-2007, 02:52 PM:

I just hope that when the contractual obligation to the Christie Tech Service is up, companies like Shaver Sound are still around and willing to work with Carmike. I think in the two years i was at my four screen I was off screen maybe twice, and that was a power supply failure and Carmike wouldn't let us keep a backup. This 8-plex, i've been off screen twice in one week. I always knew my old tech was a god amongst men, but i think i may owe him yet another steak, because i had no idea how much he actually helped my presentation these past few years.

BTW, i'm the complex manager. I applied to Booth Manager at a local Consolidated so i wouldn't have to move, but they felt i was over qualified and wanted too much pay......bastards! Damn you Herman Stone! lol

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-29-2007, 06:39 PM:

Carmike is into the Christie contract for I believe either 8 or 9 more years....

Mark

Posted by Paul Van Dusen (Member # 3640) on 12-29-2007, 08:26 PM:

[uhoh]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-30-2007, 09:35 AM:

Paul,

Christie is actually a very good company to have behind yourself! Indeed you could be in alot worse position with a different US manufactuirer behind you for support. Just keep after them to get the stuff fixed... Now if you go through two or three different techs that still can't deal with your problems which are more than likely very simple then I think you can blame it on them... Don't expect every IT guy to know MUTS or AW-3s but there are undoubtdly a few that do!

Mark