Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Just saw SW3 in digital with Kodaks system. Wow!

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Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-20-2005, 10:18 PM:

This was the very first digital presentation ( as far as I know)
in our area. In our local paper it showed a Kodak tech with a Kodak server but I think the projector was Barco.
Im assuming it was a DLP.
Very bright with very very saturated and vibrant colors.
The whole presentation was stunning. No visible pixel structure.
Very very clean and steady. You could tell you were watching a different media from film.

Maybe John from Kodak can jump in and provide some feedback on the system we were watching.
Id be curious to know:
What was the type ( DLP or LCos) and resolution of the projector.
What was the resolution of the source, Did it match the projectors resolution or was it higher.
Can you tell us a little about Kodaks roll and is Kodak involved with all the Digital presentations of this movie across the country or just our local theater being in Kodaks back yard.

Thank you, job well done.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-20-2005, 10:30 PM:

Any idea what size the screen is? Where were you sitting? What did they do with the preshow stuff?

Thanks for the report.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-20-2005, 10:49 PM:

Im guessing the screen to be 40 to 50 feet wide.
I sat about 1/2 way back and their was a Kodak system intro type thing at the beginning. Trailers , Vantastic 4, war of the worlds, Batman begins.

One thing we need to remember.
This entire movie was shot using an HD cam. Anyone watching HDTV in your home will know the huge difference between watching a HD movie on HBO transferred from film (looks good, better then dvd but not stunning) verses something shot from Live Camera like a sporting event or one of the nature shows (stunning in your face, like your looking out a window) HDNet is a great HD channel with tons of programming all shot with HD cam. Stunning.
Thats why this movie looked so good.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-20-2005, 11:02 PM:

quote: Alan Gouger
Very bright with very very saturated and vibrant colors.

BUT..... which one is correct... the digital or the film presentations being shown? Are the colors supposed to be so vibrant? I wonder whhat the opinion of the cinematographer is.....?

Re: the hd stuff we receive at home.... hd camera oriented stuff has a sterile-glossy look to it....video oriented stuff always has while film looks like film. Exactly how good a film looks depends on how good a transfer was done, film transferes to hd generally have a wider contrast ratio than camera feeds do. I.B. Technicolor transfered to hd looks terriffic and can be very close to how a given I.B. Tech film really looks.

Mark

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 05-20-2005, 11:12 PM:

That is a good question Mark. Just how does all this translate. Are there adjustments on the equipment being used that determines the color balance and contrast or what not like on home equipment or is all the adjusting done to the source prior to digitizing it. Are they overexaggerating the product to make it appear to look good.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-20-2005, 11:45 PM:

Color and brightness values are adjusted in the DLP projector, but only during setup. There is a variety of color configuration files available for different applications, and all these and many more settings can be adjusted - but normally not by the user, by loading what is called a PCF (Projector Configuration file). There are some standard PCF files which are commonly used for digital cinema. Star Wars actually came with a modified PCF which loaded a different color space file than what is normally used for digital cinema.
Barco currently make a 1.3k (DP30) and a 2k (DP100) projector which you can see here.
If the one you saw does not look like either one of these, it may be the older 1.3k model which used to be mounted on a Kinoton SK50 console. It looks like the FP50, except that it has the TI head mounted on front of the console instead of the 35mm film head shown in that picture.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-21-2005, 08:01 AM:

quote: Alan Gouger
The whole presentation was stunning. No visible pixel structure

Were there any scenes bright enough to see it anyway? Even when I saw 1K DLP, the only time you could see the "Screen Door" effect was in brightly lit scenes.

Were there any "jaggies" on the text?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-21-2005, 09:16 AM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
Color and brightness values are adjusted in the DLP projector, but only during setup.

Then its certainly a safe bet that none of the DLP presentations of a given production will look alike... nor will any two DLP projectors look alike for that matter. My experience with LCD projectors has shown that slight variations do exist fromom projector to projector. Having any internal adjustments that can be user effected is a strong dis- advantage. The calibration and adjustment is something that should be handled in digital protocal within the productions data. Otherwise there is no guarantee of seeing a presentation exactly how the cinematographer and director establishhed it.

Mark

Posted by Jean-Pierre Van Hoof (Member # 2063) on 05-21-2005, 09:40 AM:

We run EP3 on a christie 2k dlp and I'm stunned with what I saw.
It's correct that the tech from the server (EVS cinestore solo) programmed a macro to call a different collorprofile and a different resolution. (1920x817)

Since we do not get 35mm prints when running Dcinema I can't tell nothing about the difference.
We run commercials and trailers from our Philips cp30 and take over to the DLP.
When the DLP starts projecting the audience in the theatre all said OOOOHHH ;-)After the show they even aplauded and that's something I never heard before ;-)(except the landing of a charter plane LOL)
A film like EP3 shot and mastered completely digital and projected by a DLP is off cause no match, quality wise, to a 35mm print scanned I think.

I was a 35mm quality junkie but now I've seen a outstanding presentation with a DLP and I'm convinced DLP looks great.

CU,
Jean-Pierre

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-21-2005, 10:10 AM:

With a little research I found out it was a Barco 100 2k DLP.

Mark

You bring up some good points regarding brightness, color saturation ect and what are the proper intended levels.

On a related note: I find myself more immersed in a movie from my film system because there is nothing to adjust. You sit and watch.
On my video system I am distracted by thoughts of "should I turn up the brightness a little or lower the color". I end up tweaking the movie a few times through out the viewing instead of just watching the movie.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 05-21-2005, 10:51 AM:

quote: Alan Gouger
On my video system I am distracted by thoughts of "should I turn up the brightness a little or lower the color". I end up tweaking the movie a few times through out the viewing instead of just watching the movie.

I have a DVD called video essentials that I use to set up my 32 inch CRT flat screen TV. It basically sets up the television to as close to what it should be. Once there I don't change anything. The quality is then judged by the production of the various DVD's. Saying that, shouldn't one of the required standards of DCinema be that all DLP based projection systems should be set up with the same industry based program to match the capabilities of the systems. Then all color, brightness, contrast and resolution related properties are all made in post production. So essentially nothing is ever touched on the DLP projectors except during a normal calibration check once a year or so.

Posted by Mattias Ohlson (Member # 1662) on 05-21-2005, 01:37 PM:

If it(ti) looks good we should be happy.
Who knows what it is supposed to look like but one person really?

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-21-2005, 02:30 PM:

I disagree. It isn't sufficient that the picture and sound be "good."

The ultimate goal of the exhibitor should be to reproduce the picture and sound in a way that replicates what the filmmakers saw in the studio or laboratory screening room. This is partly the responsiblity of the lab that makes the print elements or DLP master and partly the responsibility of the theatre (light levels, sound system alignment, color setup for DLP, etc.).

This is why we have SMPTE and other standards for film production and exhibition and why they are needed for [dlp]

presentation as well. Even if the source is NTSC video, someone needs to set up the video projector (brightness, contrast, focus, tint, etc.) using the bars and tone that should be on the tape/disk.

What are the user-adjustable functions on current DLP projectors? How does one even align the bulb in one? It's not like you can just remove the lens and run it without "film" to do the preliminary alignment as is standard procedure on film projectors.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-21-2005, 04:07 PM:

You all completely misunderstood my comments about adjusting the projectors. It is not like they have big round knobs at the side where the operator can play with the settings. All the settings are only accessible with a notebook or touchpad on the unit. Both can of course be password protected. So, you are not at all supposed to "tweak" the settings in the cinema

During installation, the color coordinates of the projected primary colors are measured and entered in the setup so that the projector can correct any offset from the intended color values.
This procedure ensures that the projected colors are correct.
Color space and target color files can be loaded to create different basic "looks", but these settings of course do not overrule the initial color calibration, but are relative to the calibrated values. These files are also not chosen by the operator, they are specified in the projector configuration file which can come with the movie or be part of a preconfigured setting which is called up when the movie is played.

If you look at it from this perspective, there are actually no real "user-adjustable" settings in the sense of "operator-adjustable". Maybe I did not word this properly since I have worked extensively with our DLP on alternative content settings and see me as the "user". So the "user" in this context would be the technician who configures these settings, not the projectionist on site.
Initial lamp and reflector alignment is performed with a target tool that goes in the projector head and by measuring the light output across the projected field. You can not see the "naked" lamp and reflector like with a film projector.
But you can of course also focus and adjust the light field after changing a lamp on a projected test pattern of white.

Posted by Mattias Ohlson (Member # 1662) on 05-21-2005, 04:46 PM:

What I meant by good was
1 correct
2 good

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-21-2005, 06:36 PM:

I love it! Someone compliments a filmless presentation and defensive panic ensues!

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Then its certainly a safe bet that none of the DLP presentations of a given production will look alike... nor will any two DLP projectors look alike for that matter. My experience with LCD projectors has shown that slight variations do exist fromom projector to projector. Having any internal adjustments that can be user effected is a strong dis- advantage. The calibration and adjustment is something that should be handled in digital protocal within the productions data. Otherwise there is no guarantee of seeing a presentation exactly how the cinematographer and director establishhed it.

Of course, film projection systems are user-adjustable, too. As a moviegoer, two of my pet peeves are misframing and overcropping/masking, for instance. There's also a widespread problem of screen underillumination which, as you know, will impact image fidelity.

So, please, let's not pretend that film presentations are uniform from one setup to the next. The truth is that in the real world, they vary wildly...even when identical systems are installed by the same person in the same multiplex.

I believe that any movie whose images were originated primarily or entirely with video should be seen in a video format if one wishes to experience that particular movie "done right."

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-21-2005, 07:45 PM:

Manny, you make an excellent point. It's not like "film" ever looks exactly the same in different theaters. There are disagreements here over such basics as color temperature (Christie lamphouses have been mentioned as being too cool). Those problems will carry over to d-cinema. The real issue is whether the moviegoer gets a a good sight and sound experience and not one that's OBVIOUSLY flawed, whether the flaws we're talking about are specks of dirt or something peculiar to digital.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-21-2005, 07:56 PM:

Manny,

Taking SMPTE specs into acount for both film and D-Cinema I bet that film version would be the more consistant today. Also, if one can't do film right its also very doubtful that one could do D-Cinema right either.

I can just see down the road that exhibitors will install the cheapest digital projector they can get away with... this will also play a major part in how good the projected image is and how close to the original it can even come.

Mark

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 05-21-2005, 07:57 PM:

They won't do video right, either. Granted.

But what about film???

Frankly, I don't care who the theatre tech is. I don't care what they've got installed. And I don't care who is projecting. IT'S NEVER GOING TO BE PERFECT! And there's zero chance of it staying as "close to perfect" as when it is set up according to standards. Shit happens.

My moviegoing experience with digital projection systems is that the film-related flaws that irk me most -- framing, image instability, dirt/dust/scratches -- become nonexistent!

Hence, I am in favor of it because I believe that it delivers a better show than any conventional 35mm film system I have encountered.

So far, image resolution has not been an issue for me with DLP (but I'm keeping my eyes open).

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-21-2005, 08:45 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Taking SMPTE specs into acount for both film and D-Cinema I bet that film version would be the more consistant today. Also, if one can't do film right its also very doubtful that one could do D-Cinema right either.

I don't quite follow you here, Mark. Could you please elaborate on this? Why would the film version be more consistent? With d-cinema, there isn't actually that much that can be done wrong by the operator. Apart from keeping the projector clean (applies to film as well) and watching out for the lamp quality (applies to film as well), they only have to make sure they select the right macro and lens, in another words, the right format (applies to film as well). Some systems don't even use different anamorphic lenses anymore and resize the image completely internally. Then all that remains will be to chose the right macro with the correct settings which can actually be automatized as well.

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 05-22-2005, 12:47 AM:

If this was the Cinemark up there, I imagine that it was a Christie CP2000 (2K) projector.

Posted by Chris Brown (Member # 2800) on 05-22-2005, 01:38 AM:

Alan this was over at Tinseltown correct? We all heard about the digital showing of Episode 3 there and were definitely curious to hear all about it. Even my GM considered seeing the movie there over our theatre (still not sure why she didnt actually). Sounds like a great way to watch the film, especially since the visual effects in it are stunning to begin with. Thanks for sharing!

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-22-2005, 03:15 PM:

Hi Chris

Yes it was Tinseltown. Hope you get to see this and share your feedback.

Great to see a local on the forum [Smile]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-22-2005, 06:51 PM:

Mark,

I think you are dead wrong on the color thing with DLP. Using LCD experiences is not at all the same thing. LCD projectors are notorious for not having true colors and suffer from color fading with time.

A DCinema projector, when installed is color calibrated on a color by color basis and as a function of white lite. This is done using a chromaticity meter so even the lens and screen surface are taken into account along with the lamp and reflector. At the moment, each DCinema feature comes with its color space file (and I hope they settle on one color space). As such, what you see on one of these systems IS what the film maker saw.

By contrast for film...no two reels are color matched the same. Don't believe me, talk to someone like Mr. Robert Harris. You can't get a lab to print the same way twice and we are talking about low production prints not just the high-volume release prints that are complete junk. Ever compare an EK print to a release print? I have...the difference is quite startling. You won't get that with DCinema

Do I think the resolution of DCinema is good enough yet? Nope, the pixels are still way too large but it certainly shows promise.

As far as getting two DCinema theatres to put out the same show, color wise, DCinema will win that battle every time over film.

Next time you are in Florida...head over to Universal Studios and check out the Shrek attraction. You have FOUR DLP projectors running a 3-D presentation (two projectors for each eye). You have edge blending that requires absolute color matching and alignment to avoid any seams. Then turundle over to Disney's Magic Kingdom and check out the "Philharmagic" performance running film...it is also quite exceptional but the seams are visible, unlike in Shrek (Philharmagic IS the better attraction though).

I recently did a demo for an Art gallery with a DCinema projector (Barco DP50). With the DLP projector, I could change color temperture at will. In fact, I measured an Extagraphic slide projector with a "bright light" module ...then dialed in the chromaticity numbers into the DLP and matched the color of the tungsten slide projector for an A/B comparison.

I still consider DCinema in the prototype stage but it is definately evolving. I'm curious about its advancement beyond 2K. 2K is good for and A/V and home medium since that is where broadcast is currently stepping off. It is not good enough for DCinema however. I wont be satisfied with DCinema technology until it rivals 70mm, the true state-of-the-art in film projection.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-22-2005, 08:13 PM:

Steve, Manny... no need to blow a gasket and have to check into a hosputal [Wink]

! All I was trying to say is that todays film problems will be replaced by as many or more other problems in D-Cinema and there will always be problems no matter what the exhibition form. I see just as many problems likely to happen down the road that will affect the overall quality of D-Cinema including color shifting over time to do reflector and screen aging. And Steve, Any video projector can be user adjusted so no matter how well calibrated a DLP is that is that still no guarantee of it being representative of what the DP and director wanted(what we ultimately see may be what the theatre manager or projectionist likes) while film can be consistantly representative of the directors and DP's wishes if the cinema is built and kept to SMPTE specs. They may personally visit several important D-Cinema sites and tweek it personally to guarantee its shown correctly just as do sound mixers do, but then the rest of us in mainstream U.S. are all back to the same variances we get with film. Film of course is greatly variable, although lots of dailies I've seen that were carefully done were very difficult to detect any slight color differences with the naked eye. All in all over time D-Cinema can offer no more consistancy or reliability guarantees than film and that is what I was getting at.

Mark

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-22-2005, 08:28 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
And Steve, Any video projector can be user adjusted so no matter how well calibrated a DLP is that is that still no guarantee of it being representative of what the DP and director wanted(what we ultimately see may be what the theatre manager or projectionist likes)

The ones that I worked with so far couldn't be user adjusted, at least not by the projectionist or manager (see my post on p.1).

Posted by Maddison Lake (Member # 2876) on 05-22-2005, 08:40 PM:

I'm not trying to sound like an a**hole but is anyone considering that this entire film was shot digital??? I mean 24P Native digital will look the best projected 24P native digital. I mean Film = Grain (Hence film look) and Digital Native = No grain and the Sony line of HDW's are beautiful cameras which produce close to film quality NOT THE SAME QUALITY because its digital. And i TOO agree that digital will never replace film just because its not the same thing. I used to run a production studio which we put filters on digitally shot stuff, and it was very close to film when shot in 24P.

I think the show you saw which was projected digital especially if a Kodak tech was there probably was what the mastered dailies looked like.

Also, I am pretty sure that on the Sony HDW the CCD's are Kodak?

-ML

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-22-2005, 08:50 PM:

The DCinema systems I've worked with (primarily Barco)...the color calbration was not very user adjustable at all. In fact, I give Barco a lot of credit in how they have done their software. There are three levels...Theatre, Engineer and Post Production. Only with Post Production do you really get access to setting colors. The Theatre level doesn't give you too much access at all and you need a laptop to use any of the programs. Think the operator can get a Post Production copy...think again...they are registered to each laptop. Barco doesn't just give Post Production away either so playing with the colors isn't that easy. It stays with the people that are best able to use it...that is those with a color meter to set the colors.

As to aging...with film, when a reflector ages or the screen...what can you do? Change the reflector and the screen? I guess...with DCinema...you simply remeasure and reset it...however, you will find that a DLP projector is more color stable than you might imagine and certainaly more consistant than film.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-22-2005, 09:11 PM:

Again Steve, the real issues are going to lay down the road a bit. Theatre owners that don't maintain equipment today are not going to maintain DLP systems either unless they literally go off the screen. The Carmikes will remain the Carmikes with piss poor presentation no matter how its shown. And while the projectors may be stable in the short term, they will be problematic in the long term as is all electronic gear. The real down the road problems will lie with the servers, they are sometimes a pain today, are not, and have not been stable. I think most of the repair work in the future will be server related but there will also be board changouts, and DLP chip arrays getting cooked because of failed cooling and exhasut systems. Normal maintainance if done will merely consist of cleaning filters, checking color balance, and changing lamps. If the theatres personel have any access to making even slight color balance changes as you mentioned then add that to the variables list.

At first your experiences with these systems may lead you to believe they will be stable overall but there is the adjustment issue and maintainance issue and if not followed those will allow changes to occur down the road a bit. Servers, well, thats another entire problem in itself and one that has probably stagnatesd D-Cinema to a larger degree than the projectors themselves.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-22-2005, 09:31 PM:

Personally, I can forsee there being a whole bunch of levels that the DCinema might become...some will have the high-end equipment while others will have the LCD level of equipment. Heck, you can get a 16:9 LCD projector for much less than for a DLP projector...why won't the exhibitor want to exploit the cheaper technology...as you have pointed out in another thread...they are there to sell the popcorn, not the feature. So for say $10K you can have a 4000 Lumen LCD projector that does 1366 x 768 (and that price will go down and resolution will go up) instead of a $100K DLP...are the pictures the same...absolutely not but we are takling about a 10X cost savings. LCD 2K projectors are right now about half of then DLP counterparts.

As to service...that will get less with time...board changeouts will become BOARD changeout...servers will also get smaller and more reliable with time (and cheaper). Look at the 8" floppy, to the 5-1/4" floppy to the 3.5" floppy to the CD or Harddrive...it just gets more reliable and higher density while getting cheaper.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-22-2005, 09:49 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
As to service...that will get less with time...board changeouts will become BOARD changeout...servers will also get smaller and more reliable with time (and cheaper). Look at the 8" floppy, to the 5-1/4" floppy to the 3.5" floppy to the CD or Harddrive...it just gets more reliable and higher density while getting cheaper.

I have not seen server type items, or electronic equipment manufactured in small numbers become all that much more reliable over the years. the main difference today is that they consume less power and run at higher speeds, neither of those has increased reliability at all, its stayed about the same. Look at DTS which is nothing more than a server of sorts.......lots of trouble over the years! Items manufactured in small numbers always seem to go through a settling in period of sorts and then experience the normal breakdowns and such. Aside from server breakdowns there will also be server malfunctions or which there have already been plenty of. Also the format used, 8" floppy, 3" foppy, CD Rom, Hard drive, ets has nothing to do with increasing operating reliability as its all mechanically based so I'm betting this end of the game will stay about the same as it is today, perhaps getting just a little bit better than it is.

Mark

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-22-2005, 10:18 PM:

Server-grade microcomputer systems usually have a lot of fault-tolerance in their design: ECC memory, redundant power supplies, monitored fan speeds, etc. Also hot-swappable components where possible. Often something can fail and the system will continue to run while a replacement part is ordered. Are d-cinema servers being designed and built to provide that kind of reliability? Or are they being built to a price point? Any junk PC can be turned into a "server" but not necessarily one that'll be reliable over the long haul.

Posted by Steven C Y Chan (Member # 2967) on 05-22-2005, 10:24 PM:

People here just say the reliable of the security of the computer. We download the film by a fire-wire Hd, another hd on another cable for the subtitle and a computer for setting and also the marco from the film company.... we also heard a lot of them down by high temperature in china. [Confused]

By the way, we had a barco dp-100 and GDC server, a simplex projector with a 7000W lamphouse in a same screen, both playing SW3 now, most ppl here say the sound in digital is better(?, AES direct to a CP650)but the picture of film is better... [Confused]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-23-2005, 06:24 AM:

David...the servers I've worked with and have seen that are coming out (like Dolby's) have redundant systems and are indeed hot swappable. Thus...if a drive goes down...it tells you, continues to run the show and upon installing the replacement, will automatically load the new drive so it once again is on line. And with ethernet ports...the failure could be handled by a central dispatch area, replacement sent and theatre notified without the theatre itself actually knowing about the failure.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-23-2005, 07:17 AM:

Oh come on Steve... get real. Most locations cen't even get replacement reels of film let alone parts for a server. Are we to depend on the likes of Technicolor distribution for this sort of parts replacement service in the future...... or a company that closes for weeks at christmas time.... Yea, right......... that'll work out real good.

Right now the biggest problem has been server drop outs(redundant or not) or data not playing back at all and this is a much worse problem in and of itself.

Mark

Posted by Steven C Y Chan (Member # 2967) on 05-23-2005, 08:20 AM:

My projector supplier get some reporter visit our company which get first DLP projector in our location, and he 'accident' delete the marco and subtitle. I don't think these can happen in film, but can easy happen on digital. - accident delete or wrong marco [Frown]

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 05-23-2005, 12:29 PM:

I saw the film in both DLP and 35mm in a Manhattan theatre. In terms of color, both presentations were comparable - they both lacked blacks. Night scenes looked esp bad (IMHO), but I suspect this is because it was shot in HD and not on film, so this isn't a great film to compare 35mm and digital presentations because (IMHO), the 35mm is inferior in the first place.

I have a feeling that the house relamped for this presentation, because the screen brightness from corner to corner for the 35mm presentation was better than I had ever seen it before. The 35mm print was also in excellent condition.

I saw absolutely no digital artifacts on the DLP presentation. Even the craw at the beginning looked good. I believe the screen was about 50' wide.

One note on SHOWMANSHIP: During the digital preshow, the screen was masked. Before the DLP previews started, they pulled out the masking. The audience went "whoa!" and applauded. We frequently debate on here whether the audience notices anything, especially when they don't complain when things go wrong technically. This incident tells me that they notice a lot and that showmanship still makes a difference.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-23-2005, 12:43 PM:

quote: Martin Brooks
One note on SHOWMANSHIP: During the digital preshow, the screen was masked. Before the DLP previews started, they pulled out the masking. The audience went "whoa!" and applauded. We frequently debate on here whether the audience notices anything, especially when they don't complain when things go wrong technically. This incident tells me that they notice a lot and that showmanship still makes a difference.

Regal did the same thing here (regular rolling stock though, not digital) and the audience DID notice. Little things like that help make the moviegoing experience more special. Any theater with side masking should make it POLICY to add to their showmanship by doing that whenever they can.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-23-2005, 01:36 PM:

quote: Steven C Y Chan
My projector supplier get some reporter visit our company which get first DLP projector in our location, and he 'accident' delete the marco and subtitle. I don't think these can happen in film, but can easy happen on digital. - accident delete or wrong marco

One can not easily delete a macro "by accident" unless somebody plays around really stupidly in an area that he should only have access to and play in when he knows what he is doing.

Still, deleting a macro is no problem, editing a new one is no biggie at all. It takes about a minute or so when you have the other macros still on the machine, or better still, backup files on your notebook and under different names on the machine itself (like "macro001backup"). Then all it takes is to rename that file.
Selecting a wrong macro is the same mistake as selecting the wrong format when playing film. But in the case of the DLP system, that step can actually be automatized too.

But we are really going in circles here. There is no doubt that stupid and incompetent tinkering with DLP projectors can cause small and big problems. But in that there is no difference between the worlds of film and DLP. Except that all those settings are much easier protected and can be backed up in a digital system. They can also be removed from the reach of incompetent people. Now, if somebody has access to the setup but does not know what he is doing and deletes part of the setup, then the problem is not with the system.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-23-2005, 02:48 PM:

Agreed, but wouldn't it be better to get rid of the stupid and incompetent operators than to restrict them from making (sometimes necessary) adjustments?

I would support the idea of a "tampor proof seal" (either physical or electronic) which would give an indication of when the machine was adjusted, but I absolutely detest the idea of "locked down" equipment which cannot be adjusted under any circumstances except by someone with the necessary "keys" (physical or electronic).

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 05-23-2005, 03:33 PM:

The Kodak Digital Cinema System at Cinemark Tinseltown USA in Rochester (Gates) NY is on Screen #9, which I recall is 25x60 feet in size.

"Color Management" is an important part of any Digital Cinema System, and is being standardized by the SMPTE DC28 Committee. The Kodak Digital Cinema System is designed with the flexibility to meet current and future SMPTE Standards, and will use the latest in Kodak Image Science to do so:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/digital/featurePresentations.jhtml

quote:
The KODAK Solution is built around an easy-to-use KODAK CineServer, driven by unique KODAK Software and supported by a full range of KODAK Services — including content preparation and delivery.

It begins with a Kodak wide-area network connecting to a Kodak in-cinema network. Content, software updates,and security "keys" are delivered, components are remotely monitored and diagnosed, and content receipt and play are automatically verified — all through the network.

Lobby display monitors and screens can also be linked to the network. So additional streams of content can be managed and played, flexibly, throughout the site.

Secure content arrives from KODAK Digital Cinema Services (our network operations center) — or other content preparation sources — on DVD-ROM, hard disk drive or, in the future, via satellite. Feature movie files arrive "encrypted" to prevent piracy, and "compressed" to reduce data-file size and make distribution more efficient.

The feature presentation, on hard disk drive or DVD-ROM, is inserted directly into the KODAK CineServer. In the server, it's automatically decrypted, decompressed, and sent to a feature-quality (up to 2K) projector for each auditorium.In this mode, the KODAK Digital Cinema Content Manager handles scheduling via its connection to the ticketing system.

When the presentation arrives via satellite, the central Content Manager receives and transmits it to the designated KODAK CineServer. In the server, it is decrypted, decompressed, and staged until it plays as scheduled. In this mode, content can be stored in the Content Manager or in the CineServer.

The KODAK System is connected to the ticketing system for show schedules,so content plays on the screen where it's booked. The KODAK System also interfaces with the theatre's automation system for curtains, lighting, and projector start — so it fits seamlessly in your operations and your customers can experience a smooth and enjoyable presentation.

And, as part of our full service, we'll make sure your people are fully trained and confident with all their new capabilities. When you choose to work with Kodak,you're choosing a company that will help you to enjoy the benefits of digital cinema with confidence. And you're choosing a partner who's committed to your business success now — and in the future.

Kodak LaserPacific prepared the content, including the feature and all trailers, for all the Kodak Digital Cinema sites. The encrypted feature data was sent to each theatre via hard drive, and loaded directly into the Kodak CineServer:

http://www.kodak.com/US/en/motion/products/digital/cinemaSolutions.jhtml

quote:
NETWORK-BASED SOLUTION BUILT ON LINUX PLATFORM WITH ALL SYSTEMS AND SERVICES:
Fully compliant with today's — and will be compliant with tomorrow's — evolving interoperability standards of DCI and SMPTE
Supporting a choice of projectors — up to 2K resolution today, with upgrade to 4K tomorrow
Driven by unique KODAK Software and supported by KODAK Service worldwide

AFAIK, all three US Kodak Digital Cinema Sites are using the Barco 2K DP100 projector.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-23-2005, 05:35 PM:

Oh come one Mark...the server will be treated like booth equipment today...it will be the theatre's responsibility to maintain spares...just like xenon lamps. The difference now is a company, like Regal that already monitors the ethernet port of all devices that have them, can see when a server has an issue and dispatch one of their technicians and necessary parts from a centralized office rather than by hit and miss detection at the theatre level. It is more efficent...the distribution company wouldn't have a part in that sort of failure.

Now if the source files that the studio provides has corrupt damaged or even wrong information, then yes the theatre would be in the same predicament they are in today...they could still place the wrong language on part 6 of the movie though it is less likely since the film will be treated as one feature rather than 5-10 parts (depending on storage device).

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-23-2005, 05:57 PM:

John

Thanks for chiming in. Lots of good stuff and very interesting.
These are interesting times for Kodak being a dominant player for both formats, Film and now Digital.

Keep up the good work.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-23-2005, 07:42 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
I would support the idea of a "tampor proof seal" (either physical or electronic) which would give an indication of when the machine was adjusted, but I absolutely detest the idea of "locked down" equipment which cannot be adjusted under any circumstances except by someone with the necessary "keys" (physical or electronic).

Just that is what keys and passwords are for. You can give them to the people you trust.
In this context, I like Christie's concept better than Barco's. On the Barcos, there is next to no adjustment possible without the notebook and setup software. Christies have a setup software and a touch panel with a user and a password protected setup level. So you can actually call the theater and talk somebody you trust will make the right changes through on the phone, provided you give him the password. That way you also know what changes have to be made. The problem with the Barcos is that they have only 6 user-accessible macros (at least the 50, I haven't worked with the 100 yet), so even if you set up a number of macros for all sorts of situations in advance, you still have to actually drive to the theater and hook up the notebook just to tie a new configuration to one of the buttons. Of course you can also have them on a network and can dial into the unit remotely.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-23-2005, 11:17 PM:

Michael,

Look into the GPIO port on the DP50...you can set up 8 more macros there.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 05-24-2005, 12:46 AM:

quote: Martin Brooks
I saw the film in both DLP and 35mm in a Manhattan theatre. In terms of color, both presentations were comparable - they both lacked blacks.

I noticed that, too. Everything just runs out to Midnight Blue. Maybe that's why Lucasfilm was doing that whole screen brightness awareness campaign for EP3, so everyone could see the pretty blue.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 05-24-2005, 02:06 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Michael,

Look into the GPIO port on the DP50...you can set up 8 more macros there.

Thanks for the tip! I will definitely look into that as soon as I can spare some time!
Have you used the General Purpose I/O in a similar setting where the additional macros were user-accessible? Spontaneously, the only idea that comes into my mind to make that possible would be to build a little panel with extra pushbuttons to make the macros selectable via the GPIO.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-24-2005, 06:36 AM:

Michael...no but I'm about to. I have an installation with a Crestron system. I want several of the predefined Macros that will never change (for general purpose, not DCinema) to always be there.

I've checked with Barco and they say it will/does work. I plan to have the 4 macro buttons on the front be there for temporary or feature specific Macros with the day-to-day ones be on the GPIO.