Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Change Over To Digital Cinema

This is topic Change Over To Digital Cinema in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000049

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 06-30-1999, 12:02 AM:

A few years ago , here in oz a company under the name of satilite cinemas (think thats what they called themselves) set up small 60 to 90 seat cinemas in outback towns to show movies in towns where a cinema has closed some time ago or didnt exsist.It operated as a franchise,it didnt last long because film distributors did not want to commit new releases to the format.The method of projection used was S V.H.S. and a video projector with a surround sound system.Of coarse they have all closed and some remained open by converting to film.As you all realise this wont happen with digital cinema as the quality will be far supperior than S V.H.S and film.I predict that in 5 yrs things will start to move along by then they shoud have worked out format etc and also the cost will start to come down to a point where it will be affordable for the majors to change over.After 5 years I feel that any new multiplex cinemas built will be digital or part digital. Excisting multis will change over as they upgrade the projection equipment they currently use.Country locations will change over when the cost comes down further which it will, I think that in ten years film will start to fade out and by twenty years gone altogether. I dont like the idea of me not showing film but I have be realistic about it and take what comes, I have 25 years of working left before am able to retire I may just make it but who knows perhaps I am wrong about what I said above but I dont think I am to far wrong.

------------------

[This message has been edited by Stephen Jones (edited 06-30-99).]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-30-1999, 12:41 AM:

Which part of Australia do you live in?

------------------
John

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 06-30-1999, 10:01 AM:

Could you please define "far supperior to film"

Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 06-30-1999, 08:20 PM:

In reply to your question Greg over the next few years improvements in technolgy with digital cinema will no doubt make it comparable to 35mm as has happened with other things such as D.V.D etc.As with most of you I prefere 35mm film any day and always will but I have to be realistic and not bury my head in the sand hoping it will go away because it wont mainly because cinema chains and distributors will fight tooth and nail for it,even though the cinema chains in my opinion have hurried along digital cinema because of sloppy presentation damage to film and equipment caused by inexperienced bio staff which is their fault after all they say you dont need much experience to be a projectionist(This is the case here in oz I dont know what the story is in the U.S)I may have rambled on a bit but this is how I feel about major chains and their atitude to people with regards to bringing in new ideas they only worry about dollars and cents not the human factor eg high unemployment etc. At least they cant take away the memories of how things used to be.

------------------

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 07-01-1999, 09:37 AM:

Stephen,

It sounds like the only difference between a large Australian Cinema and a large American Cinema is your use of the word BIO. Other than that it sounds like business as usual. Low pay, no training, sloppy film handling and all the free popcorn you can eat!

I have often wondered why a person who strings cable to people’s houses makes more than projectionists do. A car mechanic makes more than a projectionist. In Denver some of our fast food servers are making as much as projectionist.

The time when Projection was considered a profession is long gone. The good news, for those who want to learn, is the pay for technicians is still good. Keep learning! Fix everything you can, then make them pay you what your worth.

The cinemas may or may not convert to electronic cinema. However all of that equipment in the booth will still need service. And a manager will be no more able to service his video projector than his projector head.

Ian

Posted by Ian Price (Member # 14) on 07-01-1999, 09:39 AM:

Oops!

[This message has been edited by Ian Price (edited 07-01-99).]

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 03-07-2005, 02:03 PM:

It has been 2076 days since the last post.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 03-07-2005, 02:03 PM:

I predict that in 5 yrs things will start to move

Well, now that it is 6 years later, and all of Austrlia has converted to Digital, how do things look... [Big Grin]

Posted by Rick Hunter (Member # 1606) on 03-08-2005, 02:50 AM:

Do a Google or look at http://www.domain.com.au/Public/PropertyDetails.aspx?adid=2004607143&n=

The ad for the 'cinema' in St Helens, Tasmania.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 03-08-2005, 03:15 AM:

COME ON D-CINEMA!!!!
With the garbage product that we get for 80% of the year the only way anyone can make any money is to be able to run their business with minimal staff(SAD BUT TRUE!!)
A Good Example: The only movie that's really made any money down here since Christmas is Aviator- and guess what, it was only brought out as a LIMITED RELEASE.This problem hopefully would be solved with D-CINEMA.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-08-2005, 01:59 PM:

Digital cinema won't make the product any better. You'll still have film companies dictating that you must play X product for X number of weeks at X percent. You'll still have them saying "NO, you can't interrupt the fourth week of your run of 'Star Wars XVIII' to play the 'Michael Jackson In Concert At Folsom Prison' special."

It will help with the problem of not enough prints...meaning that Die Hard 13 will be able to play every single theatre in the country that's willing to pay 70%, and be on DVD (or whatever format they've foisted on us by then) two weeks later, after the "theatrical run" ends.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-08-2005, 11:50 PM:

(can you imagine Mike converting his Roxy over to DLP projection? He'd go bankrupt in a heartbeat, even though it would look great in his "little palace")

..gotta have the Big BUCKS for the conversion, let alone the percentages and "house nut" arrangements, or just find a rich relative, a good powerball winning ticket, or a lucky investment to pay for digital. Plus the tekkie's visit(s) to service that stuff, which runs into the thousands per hour, or even the day.

..a rich man's dream.... - Monte

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 03-09-2005, 03:28 AM:

At least you should be able to get the print you want when you want it!Not months after all the hype and advertising.
Monte-it costs me thousands already just to get a tech in the door as I am 700 klms from the nearest capital city.That's why I live on this site so i can learn as quick as I can to do my own repairs.It cost me nearly $3000AUD just to have two XD-10's and two CSP1200's installed some three months ago and they are still not working properly!

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 03-09-2005, 05:19 AM:

So how much it it likely to cost you to get somebody to your door who can install, service, maintain, repair a digital projector? At least with a film projector you're more likely to be able to fix a problem yourself.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-09-2005, 06:31 AM:

You don't have CSP1200s and XD10s working properly? Just what can go wrong there. Both are brain-dead easy to get up and running.

Whats the deal?

BTW...I've installed DCinema projectors (and many video projectors) in theatres...I'm supposed to charge $1000s per hour or per day? cool!

Steve

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 03-09-2005, 07:09 AM:

Stephen
I understand what your saying but i feel this industry HAS to "move on" or it will die eventually!I don't know whether D-Cinema has all the answers but if it does provide better distribution and more consistent picture quality levels then we have "moved on".Change is usually difficult.

Hi Steve
The two systems worked fine for a couple of weeks after installation but then both XD-10's(at what seemed like the same time)stopped switching the CSP1200 to Digital at the start of a DTS show.Not long after this happened the XD-10's stopped switching the CSP to Non-sync music at the end of the DTS show.So we have been operating the CSP's manually since then.
I have been doing the fault finding after getting instructions from the installer by phone.
What I found was the Control Logic Card in the CSP was faulty.This was proven by making up a 25 pin connector and touching the earth on pin 12 to each of the control lines(pins 1-8) and the DIG 2 control line was not switching on both CSP's.
Sounds wierd? it gets even wierder!
So after much delay we recieved a good Control logic card which I proved straight away to be switching all the control lines correctly.Plugged it in-the XD-10 will still not switch the CSP at the start of a DTS show.
What it looks like to me is the XD-10 is taking out the control logic card.
Much correspondance has gone on between the installer,DTS and Panalogic and I still have faulty equipment.
The manuals that come with the equipment appear to give conflicting information regarding the 25 pin cable that connects to the CSP's automation socket.
I still don't understand why they were both working then both developed the same problems.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-09-2005, 08:50 AM:

quote: Ian Bailey
this industry HAS to "move on" or it will die eventually

What better way to die a quick death than to offer the same technology in the theaters that's already available in the home? Why will anyone go out anymore? The answer is IMAX, 70mm, 35mm, 3D, etc... things that are NOT available in the home.

It's funny. In the 50s when TV made people stay home, they invented CinemaScope, 3D, etc... and it worked. Now, when TV (read "home theater set ups") is keeping people from going to the theaters, what's the industry's answer? Install TV in the theaters! YEAH! [thumbsup]

That's the ticket! [Big Grin]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-09-2005, 11:59 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
(can you imagine Mike converting his Roxy over to DLP projection? He'd go bankrupt in a heartbeat, even though it would look great in his "little palace")

Oh I imagine it'll happen some day....I plan to be around the biz for quite a while! [Smile]

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Why will anyone go out anymore?

Same reasons they have always gone out....
- To get out of the house;
- To see the picture on the HUGE theatre screen and hear the HUGE theatre sound;
- To get away from their screaming kids for a couple of hours;
- To take someone out for dinner and an evening's entertainment;
- And because the theatre will be the only place they can see the current blockbuster movie that they WANT to see right now this very second!

None of which you can get at home. And the only way the film companies can screw any of it up is by altering the last item on my list.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 03-09-2005, 12:35 PM:

"- To get away from their screaming kids for a couple of hours;"

Guess what, They take the kids with them so they scream at the theater. At least around here

"- And because the theatre will be the only place they can see the current blockbuster movie that they WANT to see right now this very second!"

As an anti-piracy move, studios are moving closer and closer to simultaneous release to DVD

"None of which you can get at home. And the only way the film companies can screw any of it up is by altering the last item on my list."

Yep, and they are in the process of doing it

So you think seeing video on a "great big screen" with pixels the size of basketballs is going to draw a crowd? Try sitting about 3 feet from your TV and see if you think it looks cool

Posted by Eric Hooper (Member # 1730) on 03-09-2005, 01:01 PM:

Finally, you guys are beginning to realize what I've been saying all along....

Movie theatres are going to become extint at this rate. Or at least, there will only be exclusive houses that the film companies will show their movies in to an 'elite' crowd, before releasing the DVD, streaming video on demand, whatever new format there is, etc...

You'd be a fool to open a new movie theatre now a days..

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-09-2005, 01:06 PM:

quote:
- To see the picture on the HUGE theatre screen and hear the HUGE theatre sound;

With home versions of DLP and theater versions of DLP, you're crazy if you think the technologies well NEVER converge. People can then make their home screens as big as they want. They can already almost do that now. And they can make their sound as big as they want right now. Until lossless DTS becomes common place anyway.

quote:
- To get away from their screaming kids for a couple of hours;

... and listen to everyone else's screaming kids and cell phones and every thing else. Surely.

I don't think the theater industry can survive on people who just want to "get out of the house."

quote: Eric Hooper
You'd be a fool to open a new movie theatre now a days..

You'd be a fool to open a cookie cutter first run multi/mega plex, I agree.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 03-09-2005, 07:07 PM:

I forgot, most of the multiplexes are in Movie Theatre Hell, AKA big cities. Maybe it's only in small towns that the kids are kept under control, cell phones are not allowed, etc.

Sorry, I just refuse to believe theatres are on the way out. They will survive, for the same reasons restaurants have survived. There is no shortage of screaming kids in restaurants, but more people are eating out than ever. And the food is nowhere near as good as home-cookin'. People like to get away from home, simple as that. They will continue to do it as long as the theatres are a pleasant place to go to.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-09-2005, 07:28 PM:

How much does it cost for a "nice" home theater setup? $1,000? $2,000? Not inculding the price of the "Plasma Screen" that will self-destruct in a few years.

At $8.00 per ticket, you could buy 250 movie theater tickets for the price of a home theater setup! I don't know ANYBODY who buys watches movies that much... Even at HOME!

For that money you could go to the movies every Friday night for a YEAR! You'd still have enough left over to pay for a ticket for your friend and spend about $10.00 PER PERSON on popcorn!

On top of that, you don't have to do ANYTHING but sit down, enjoy your popcorn and watch the movie! There's somebody to take care of the film and make the food. There's even somebody to clean up after you!

Of course, there's nothing like snuggling up on the sofa in front of the TV on a cold winter's night but that doesn't justify spending $2,000 just so that you COULD stay home and watch a video... on the off-chance you FELT like it!

It's the same idea with movie theaters going digital... Why in the hell would they want to tear out perfectly good movie projectors and replace them with new ones at a cost of $250,000 apiece?! Even at $25,000 apiece it would be a losing proposition!

This whole thing about movie theaters going out of business is a bunch of bull to me.

Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 03-09-2005, 08:58 PM:

THERE IS NO WAY IN HELL THE THEATER BUSINESS WILL EVER DIE!!

People like to be waited on. Like Mike said restaurants have survived, even though people can make a better meal at home for most likely less money...they don't. I'm guilty of this, I hardly ever eat at home. I'm always at a restaurant or fast food place...I just don't have the time...or when I do, I don't feel like cooking the damn food...I want some one to do it for me.

Same goes for the theater, people want some one else starting there movie, making there popcorn. They just want to veg for two hours in a dark room watching the newest film they can.

quote: Greg Mueller
As an anti-piracy move, studios are moving closer and closer to simultaneous release to DVD

There will never be a simultaneous release of DVD/Film ever...I think we've reached the closest release that will ever happen this past year with Surviving Christmas...Look at all the big movies that were released in the the theater...you didn't see the release of the DVD for 4-8 months after it was released. Heck even some of them almost a year later. Movies that underachieve at the theater are of course going to be brought out on DVD as fast as possible to capitalize on the people who liked it, buying it. And the people that didn't see it in the theater renting it.

The average DVD release is about 4 months...not quite simultaneous in my book.

Kurt

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 03-09-2005, 09:15 PM:

I am beginning to adopt the opinion of "pro digital cinema". Let's face it. Theaters suck ass nowadays with only a few exceptions (less than 1% of the total I am guessing). Everybody here on this forum talks like they do a whiz-bang job in the booth, but in reality I bet that is far from the case. It's all talk, no shock. Once digital cinema gets enough resolution (double that of HDTV should do it) then we can get all of the crappy people out of the booth and finally have some decent presentations. But the sound will still suck ass and I'm sure the equipment won't be maintained. So once Blu-Ray or HD-DVD become big enough to have a large library of decently priced movies, then the home theater experience will exceed the movie theater experience on all levels with the exception of actually getting your fat ass outside of your house for a few hours. The inexpensive room I put together for myself sounds loads better than ANY movie theater in the Denver metro area, and that is something I guarantee. And I don't just watch movies on my setup, I also play games and watch a wee bit of TV as well as other sources of video. So the argument that it would be cheaper just to buy a movie ticket every week just doesn't hold water.

Movie theaters need to start offering something I cannot get at home, and no theater does that anymore. We need bigger screens and better sound. Not gonna happen. Going to a movie theater these days is about as special as going to McDonalds... they're all basically the same and the experience never stands out in a good way. And yes, I'm sure that YOUR theater probably sucks, too, though you will talk about what a great job you do there. I don't even have to go there to find out. If you think otherwise of your theater, then tell me something about your theater that will get me off of my ass and into its doors. I betcha can't.

Why do I sound so pissy? I am sick of listening to people on this forum talk like they know everything. Only *I* know everything, so give it up already!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-09-2005, 09:26 PM:

Randy's back and forth analysis between home cinemas and the attending the theatre in the matter of cost is an excellent presentataion of good logical conclusions of what one can do to use their money wisely.

It's called "a trade-off": Just how one wants to be entertained-plain and simple.

Yet, I know people who have both at home: film and digital for their entertainment and have their "home cinemas" decked out to the max. Course, why being of this comfort is that the presentation and the atmosphere is at the ultimante level. No bawling kids, talking, smelling dirty auditoriums, people walking in front of you, et.al.

And some who JUST want to get out of the house to be "spoiled and pampered" to feel like celebrities attending a premiere showing.

It's just the tradeoff of the masses. And both work well. Thus, both are considered winners.

-Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-09-2005, 09:48 PM:

Ian,

I have several DTS-XD10 CSP-1200 installations and notta one control card crap out from any. Now I have had some control card issues about a year ago but not with DTS connected causing them.

Here is one example:

I connect the DTS XD10 to Digital 2 as always (even if there is no Dolby Digital around for Digital 1) and also still use the DTS control connector instead of the automation connector. I set the XD10 to DTS 6D emulation and make my own control cable to connect them up. DTS changed their pinout on the XD10 in comparison to their older players so I make a custom cable and have never had an issue.

One thing to remember on a Panastereo with DTS (and other digitals) they have a set of option switches of which one will prevent the player from selecting anything after Non-Sync has been selected for a period of time. This was to counteract the orginal DTS-6 player's habit of dropping digital, the automation going to non-sync at the end of the show...then reaquiring digital for some reason, then dropping to A or SR for the tail run out.

Make sure option A dip switch 2 is ON to defeat this feature.

On the automation connector there are numerous tally lines...if you are connected to that from the DTS XD10 I would make sure that all of the lines are verified not to cause potential harm.

Steve

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 03-09-2005, 10:21 PM:

"There will never be a simultaneous release of DVD/Film ever..."

That's a pretty positive statement. The studios will follow the way that makes them the most money, fastest. If it can be done in home release, it will be done in home release. Sorces I know say that the push is on to move towards faster and faster DVD release to thwart piracy. Makes sense to me. Wishful thinking be damned

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-09-2005, 11:02 PM:

They should sell the DVDs in the theater lobby.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-10-2005, 12:20 AM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
They should sell the DVDs in the theater lobby.

This recommendation would remove the "supply and demand" of consumers since they have to goto the theatre to purchase for their DVD habit, thus choking out what the main idea is behind home entertainment sales: To sell in mass amounts at a bargain price to attract the masses and make money that their original features didn't make, or just made in the boxoffice, since we know that producing a CD/DVD is just pennies a disc.

Plus, called a "conflict of interest" if a proprietor sells the same product that he's leasing, or have leased.

-Monte

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 03-10-2005, 08:42 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Going to a movie theater these days is about as special as going to McDonalds

Its not often I agree with Joe but in this case he and I see eye to eye. When studios conclude that home release of their product is their primary market, then you can kiss movie theatres goodbye. Its all about the money! Just like in the 1950s we'd have lots of properties to convert to churches, Targets and the like.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 03-10-2005, 09:18 AM:

Of course all this negative thinking about the future of movie theaters can be vanquished, by just giving customers what they can not get at home. A special, big, impressive, movie going experience. Putting on a show and showmanship in general will save theaters if it is employed. (to bring this discussion back to the thread title) This does not include video, as it can be duplicated in the home, given enough desire.

Posted by Rick Raskin (Member # 1561) on 03-10-2005, 02:35 PM:

Agreed, nothing, not even ultra hi def video, can beat a 70mm print shown with true skill and showmanship. What I gather, is that the public's acceptance of less perfect projection, will make video more acceptable. To get back on thread, I believe that some sort of video is going to eventually replace film simply to make the distribution process less complex. It is an evolving technology much the same as datacom was in the 90s. I remember when folks were wowed at 1200 bps. Look where we are in the home environment today -- 1.5 mbps and up.

Posted by Jeffrey Korns (Member # 2791) on 03-10-2005, 05:35 PM:

Maybe the theatres need to have live acts before the movie, show cartoons and other short subjects to make it special? Nah, been there done that.
Joe is right, unless going to the theatre is a special event people won't go.
Radio City in it's heyday thru the late 1970s was a special event. Gorgeous theatre, Rockettes, orchestra, organ, and some crappy product from Hollywood-every thing but the film made a special event. Back in the "old days" people used to dress up to go to a movie, and they knew how to behave in public.

My next big screen tv will be a video projector, once resolution and price are where I think they should be.

Posted by Greg Mueller (Member # 17) on 03-10-2005, 05:55 PM:

Yah know the Cinerama in Seattle never has a problem filling up the place when hey have a big deal presentation. The idea of seeing something spectacular always brings them it.
Maybe the days of "grand" theaters will make a comeback and all the shoe boxes will slowly fade away.
Sitting in a theater with a large crowd of "ladies and gentlemen" is a pleasent experience. I hope it comes back

Edit...
I remember as a kid (in the 50s) that people clapped when the movie started and when it was over. People dressed up to go out. It was (then) a social event. Cartoons, newsreels and double features. Oh for a time machine.....

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 03-10-2005, 08:02 PM:

Radio City still is a special event. They just learned to do more. Their shows are still amazing (with orchestra and organs). [Smile]

Posted by Jeffrey Korns (Member # 2791) on 03-10-2005, 08:31 PM:

quote: Richard May
Radio City still is a special event. They just learned to do more. Their shows are still amazing (with orchestra and organs)

I will agree that it is a special event, BUT their daily operation is no longer as a movie theatre. To be fair, they were hemmoraging money in the last years as a movie venue, in large part due to their insistance on exclusivity of movies and playing nothing but G-rated films. (which limited the films that could play there).

Unfortunately, digital projection will win out over film simply due to economics (not quality) and economics is what the business is about.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-10-2005, 08:58 PM:

quote: Ian Bailey
At least you should be able to get the print you want when you want it!Not months after all the hype and advertising.

I think that's one of the marketed myths about "D-Cinema", or what I prefer to call "video projection." There's a number of challenges to overcome in beaming a movie from satellite to theaters.

The first problem is bandwidth. The studios are probably not going to be transmitting something any better than highly compressed HD video, if it can even qualify for Hi Def at all. The second problem is who is going to pay for that satellite bandwidth? The studios sure don't want to pay over a hundred thousand dollars per screen on video projection hardware. What makes anyone think they'll want to pay for that rented satellite time either?

Then you have the issue of piracy. Just like all those guys who sell cracked smart cards for Dish and DirecTV receivers, you can bet there'll be hackers who intercept and decode that satellite stream. Hell, even if the distributor overnights hard discs or DVD-ROMs to theaters, there's little to stop someone somewhere from dubbing a "perfect copy."

From my point of view, film seems a little more piracy proof than some HD video bitstream. I mean, I laugh at people who are silly enough to waste 2 hours of their life watching a pirated movie where the source was a camcorder videotape of the screen. Losers! Even if you put a 35mm release print through a telecine you would still have noticeable generational loss. Real sucky image quality. However, we know the real, #1 source of pirated DVDs: the screener DVDs given to critics and press people. Crap code chickenpox on film prints is completely unneccesary.

quote: Kurt Zupin
There will never be a simultaneous release of DVD/Film ever...I think we've reached the closest release that will ever happen this past year with Surviving Christmas...

Actually, Warner Bros. is moving to do simultaneous releases of movies to theaters and DVD. However, the movie prints will play here in America and the DVD's will go on sale in China. Pirated DVDs in China fetch perhaps $1. WB plans to charge $2 or $3 for theirs. My guess is these will be same thing as those screener discs for critics, but just dressed in more legit packaging. I'm not sure if this plan is going to work for Warner. If anything, it may create more of a black-market demand for bootleg discs from the United States.

quote: Rick Raskin
Agreed, nothing, not even ultra hi def video, can beat a 70mm print shown with true skill and showmanship. What I gather, is that the public's acceptance of less perfect projection, will make video more acceptable.

This, essentially, is the core of the problem. Too many Americans adopt the "it's good enough" attitude when it comes to lots of things, especially film presentation. It kinda pisses me off a little if I have to go to some considerable length to explain the advantages of 70mm film or well presented digital surround sound to someone. Can't these folks see or listen? Duh!

Video projection does pose a real and lethal threat to the movie exhibition industry. There are no commercially available video projection systems for theaters that show any more image detail than standard HDTV. It is vital for commercial movie theaters to have a competitive edge against home systems when it comes to image quality. Not enough is being done in video projection R&D to allow theaters to do that.

While the movie theater companies may be directly threatened by the growing sophistication of home systems, it is the movie industry itself that will pay dearly in the long run.

Commercial movie theaters give a film release legitimacy. If the movie doesn't play in any theaters, it's just a straight-to-video release with very limited appeal, if any at all. If there are no movie theaters, then the movie production companies of Paramount, Disney, etc. will effectively be reduced to nothing more than television production companies. Everything will just have to be shot in 1.77:1 ratio. No need for formats like 'scope if there are no movie theaters. Anamorphic lenses will only be used to make music videos for gangsta rap assholes then.

The movie industry is already suffering as it is. The average quality of movies has really dropped in the last two decades. The big corporations have effectively sucked much of the creative life out of movies. It's no surprise the video game industry is now raking in twice as much money as Hollywood. Look for that earnings gap to widen even further.

What the movie studios and theater chains need is some Mike Ditka styled management. What I mean by that is looking after the fundamentals. Ditka did that with coaching. The movie industry needs that too. What are the fundamentals? The movie has gotta be worth dropping $10 per ticket at the box office. We need exceptional picture and sound. That's a very basic thing. And since it's costing a family of four $50 for their outing, the atmosphere could stand to be a bit better. Joe's McDonalds description hits the bullseye when it comes to a great deal of movie theaters.

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 03-10-2005, 09:01 PM:

I do agree but I've been hearing for years and years about how Digital is coming. To me, it's all been talk. Does anyone really think it will be widespread in the near future? (Or distant future for that matter). I am not convinced.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 03-10-2005, 09:01 PM:

Maybe the theatres need to have live acts before the movie, show cartoons and other short subjects to make it special?

A local theatre actually tried running cartoons and shorts before first run features in the early 1990's, and people actually came out and complained. Of course, 15 years later, people will sit though 20 minutes of commercials without a peep.

Posted by Jeffrey Korns (Member # 2791) on 03-10-2005, 10:12 PM:

People probably complained because they have been "dumbed down" to accept lousy, no frills movie going experience munching on popcorn topped with "golden topping".
I was in a theatre that still had a curtain and overheard some teenage girl wondering where the screen was, and then complain that they started showing the picture before the curtain was raised. (So much for showmanship)

As a side note, commercials before movies go back to the nickelodeons. Walt Disney got his start in Kansas City making cartoons for a local theater under the banner "Newmans Laugh-o-grams", which were financed by a bank as a means of advertising.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 03-11-2005, 04:12 AM:

quote: Greg Mueller
I remember as a kid (in the 50s) that people clapped when the movie started and when it was over....

Ain't that the truth! 1965's "the Sound of Music" saw that at our local theatre that year (the same place that I worked at 11 yrs later with the picts of the booth that I've posted) which was the MagOptical version. House was filled, upstairs in the balcony and downstairs. Excellent presentation and at the end the applause from the crowd on how excellent this movie was.

My last experience of this audience participation was when I help revive an old movie palace in UTAH that was closed down for over 12 years. We went though a thorough cleaning and remodeling with me redoing the booth from a carbon arc booth to a platter configuration. On re-opening night we sold that old palace out- upstairs in the balcony and the downstairs of a total of 800 people, playing Disney's "Pocahontas" and the people cheered and clapped with thuderous applause of the presentation.

Brought a lump in my throat and my eyes swelled with tears that people STILL loved to go out to the movies and will clap for a good performance.

...can Digital do that, you wonder? Is it worth it converting to Digital whereas the good ol' celluloid has proven itself after all of these years?

Can "Hollyrock" bring back the "gits and glitter" that they are known for with movie from the classic studios of MGM, Paramount, 20th Century-Fox, and others?

By the time Digital is well established on the world, some of us wouldn't have to worry about it: We'd be either too old to give a rat's ass, or be too busy "pushing up dandelions."

Besides, the following generations will prob screw it up anywho with some stupid fandangled operational procedures just to make things more complicated as it is and get paid pennies wearing the company's "slave bracelets" showing whom they work for.

(lol)

-Monte

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 03-11-2005, 04:57 AM:

D-Cinema may even open up new opportunities that we don't see at the moment.The possibility of showing sport on the big screen must have a lot of appeal.Imagine watching the Super Bowl in a nice warm theatre in Alaska [thumbsup]

ps Thanks for the info about the XD-10 & CSP Steve

Posted by Jeremy Fuentes (Member # 2135) on 03-11-2005, 06:01 AM:

quote: Joe Redifer
tell me something about your theater that will get me off of my ass and into its doors. I betcha can't.

We offer free popcorn to F-T members!

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-11-2005, 07:08 AM:

quote:
BTW...I've installed DCinema projectors (and many video projectors) in theatres...I'm supposed to charge $1000s per hour or per day? cool!

Steve,

While none of us are in that Thousand per day realm, I speculate that few of us are even half way there yet but some of us deserve to be charging that much!! Most manufacturers are at about $1500.00 per day plus all travel and board expenses. The addition of those expenses can jack that to about 2K per day! While we can install D-Cinema equiupment its doubtful that any of us could make very many repairs to them internally. And that would require the $1500.00 per day man from T.I., Barco. or Christie..... or where ever to come and do it.

Mark

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 03-11-2005, 10:39 AM:

Bobby, the final stream to come from the decoder to the projector head is SMPTE 292M, Also know as HD-SDI.

Each content delivery that I received has a set of keys for each projector. The data is encrypt using triple DES, although they may be using AES now instead. Under the old Technicolor / Qualcomm system, the feature content along with the 6 channels of sound each had a different key associated with it.

I imagine that is was the private side of the key and the data was encrypted with the public side of it, but it would have to be brute force cracked in order to decode. And then we are talking decoding gigabytes of data. Heck, even the new SW EP III trailer was over 1 GB in disk space.

Sure, a title will probably be cracked, but it will be hard for them because the keys change each time.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-11-2005, 11:41 AM:

They can't possibly be encrypting gigabytes upon gigabytes of data over and over again for every single projector using different keys each time.

What they're likely doing is encrypting once and then that "content" key itself is encrypted with the projectors' public key. The projector then would decrypt the "content" key with its private key and then finally decrypt the content with the content key.

Now maybe on top of that, they create half a dozen different sets of content encrypted with different keys, and each projector gets one of the six. That could further frustrate hackers.

But a system like the one I just described would allow the projector to recreate its keys if they became corrupted or compromised at any point, and as long as you send the projector's public key to technicolor, they can re-encrypt the content key with it, send it to you in an email, and you could load it up and run the same content without having to reload it. In fact, maybe the projector recreates keys for each show. That's also possible. That would REALLY lock things up assuming that the projector's private keys are well protected in the software.

But anyway, my point is, the data would be encrypted ONCE with a common content key. Or perhaps half a dozen times with half a dozen different keys. But there is no way that the content is different for every projector. Encrypting ONCE with a common key would also allow a single transmission through a satelite to all the theaters. But then they would need to receive the encrypted content key through an email or some other way to actually unlock the content and play it.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 03-11-2005, 12:12 PM:

What, exactly, _is_ HD-SDI? HDCAM decks will accept it on the input and output sides. What prevents one from taking an HDCAM deck, hooking it up to the playback unit, and recording the movie in high-definition digital "brilliance"?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 03-11-2005, 12:40 PM:

quote: Ian Bailey
Imagine watching the Super Bowl in a nice warm theatre in Alaska

Knowing a bit about the pay per view marketplace, that's not likely to happen.

Regarding the Super Bowl specifically, that's a freely available network broadcast (at least it is here in the United States). Most people will watch that at home, or over at a friend's home. If they go to any commercial venue to watch it, they'll visit a restaurant or bar. Not very many movie theaters in this country will serve you beer and snacks during a big game.

The top customer of big pay per view broadcasts is bars. Nearly all the rest of the customer traffic is people ordering pay per view movies to watch at home.

Essentially, my point is people expect to watch movies in a movie theater. I don't think they're going to pay $7 to $12 to watch a sports program when they can watch the same thing at home for nothing or watch it for free in a bar.

Now it might be kinda cool to watch some championship game video-projected onto a large movie screen, particularly if the image is bright and the audio is well presented 5.1 surround. But that's still going to be more of a novelty. I think the viewer paradigms of throwing Super Bowl parties at home or watching the big game in a bar while getting piss drunk with your friends will be too hard to change.

quote: Paul Konen
Sure, a title will probably be cracked, but it will be hard for them because the keys change each time.

It doesn't surprise me anymore when hackers are able to crack some new "uncrackable" piracy keys. For instance, Adobe came up with their two-tiered software authentication system for Photoshop. The software has to be activated through Adobe's servers and a software version of a dongle is written to the boot sector of the computer's hard drive. The method sounded pretty bulletproof, but it probably didn't take a month before completely cracked copies of PhotoshopCS were showing up on various P2P sites. Needless to say, the next Adobe Studio CS package will have some updated anti-piracy scheme -likely to be cracked as fast, if not faster, the next time around.

Here's one idea for an anti-piracy measure for D-Cinema: get something done for that 4K standard and make it such that the movie requires an absolute ton of data to store. Not too many people are going to want to bother uploading or downloading a movie at all if it takes them a few 400GB hard discs to store it.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 03-11-2005, 12:54 PM:

Not too many people are going to want to bother uploading or downloading a movie at all if it takes them a few 400GB

But it will make for a great source for the pirates to compress before distributing...

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 03-11-2005, 02:01 PM:

Paul says, "I imagine that is was the private side of the key and the data was encrypted with the public side of it, but it would have to be brute force cracked in order to decode. And then we are talking decoding gigabytes of data. Heck, even the new SW EP III trailer was over 1 GB in disk space."

DES, 3DES, and AES are all symmetric (aka conventional) encryption algorithms, not public-key. Generally in a public key system (like PGP email), the message is actually encrypted with a symmetric algorithm, and then the symmetric key (just the key!) is encrypted with a public-key algorithm.

In any case, the more data there is, the easier it is to attack the encryption.

Mark Marshall wrote, "They can't possibly be encrypting gigabytes upon gigabytes of data over and over again for every single projector using different keys each time."

Sure they can! They're probably burning individual DVDs already, rather than mass-producing them, and at that point, it's straightforward to re-encrypt the data as part of the burning process.

Scott: I assume that HD-SDI has some copy management features (like SCMS) so if a source sets the "Do Not Copy Me" bit, then an HDCAM deck will refuse to make a copy.

--jhawk

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 03-11-2005, 04:17 PM:

quote: John Hawkinson
Sure they can! They're probably burning individual DVDs already, rather than mass-producing them, and at that point, it's straightforward to re-encrypt the data as part of the burning process.

Ugh. That just seems like a nightmare to manage if that's the case. And if digital projection ever becomes mainstream... I don't even want to think about the complexity of managing thousands of copies all keyed differently, and then doing that for EVERY release. Holy cow. [Frown]

I also can't imagine them handing you the content encrypted with a symmetric key, and then also handing you the key. That's just stupid and doesn't make any sense at all security wise.

quote: John Hawkinson
In any case, the more data there is, the easier it is to attack the encryption.

Multiple copies of the SAME data all encrypted with different keys makes it easier too.

quote: John Hawkinson
I assume that HD-SDI has some copy management features (like SCMS) so if a source sets the "Do Not Copy Me" bit, then an HDCAM deck will refuse to make a copy.

I wonder how long it will be before someone produces one that will ignore that bit and copy it anyway. My guess is... not long.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 03-11-2005, 04:22 PM:

Hey! I gotta' GREAT idea to prevent piracy!

Put the movie in a format that takes a special piece of equipment to play back. Specifically, I'm thinking about encoding the image onto a thin plastic strip of a certain width. If the playback device isn't specifically designed for the exact width of the encoded media, and, if the media isn't played back within a certain speed paramater the resulting output will be unviewable!

Only people who have the correct playback equipment will find the media to be of any use at all!

Once the "data" is transferred to video of ANY type, it can be easily encoded and re-encoded into almost any other type of video format. It's all a matter of how you manipulate the "data". Since it's all a matter of data manipulation, there MUST be a way to "UN-manipulate" it or else it won't be viewable. Therefore, if the data is veiwable there MUST be a way to un-manipulate it. Just the fact that humans are naturally curious (NOT including piracy) means that SOMEBODY will figure out how to "un-manipulate" the data. It's a foregone conclusion.

My "idea" means that the "data" is virtually unmanipulatable unless you have special equipment. No manipulation = No piracy!

[Wink]

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 03-12-2005, 05:25 PM:

O.K. Here we go.
In the past major changes were heralded from above as the saviours of the film industry. ie Cinemascope, Technicolour, DTS, Dolby etc.
Nowdays changes are more subtle and attract little attention.

What would be the resolution comparison between a 70mm print of "2001" and my LOTR Return of the King copy.
I hear kodak keep improving picture quality, but have no details.

I guess my point is that while Digital is trying to match 35mm picture quality, kodak etc keep upping the ante by supplying ever improving prints.
Comments

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 03-13-2005, 12:57 AM:

Scott, the data going across the cable is actually encrypted, so all they would get is an encrypted data stream.

Posted by Ian Bailey (Member # 1752) on 03-13-2005, 07:21 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
While none of us are in that Thousand per day realm, I speculate that few of us are even half way there yet but some of us deserve to be charging that much!! Most manufacturers are at about $1500.00 per day plus all travel and board expenses. The addition of those expenses can jack that to about 2K per day! While we can install D-Cinema equiupment its doubtful that any of us could make very many repairs to them internally. And that would require the $1500.00 per day man from T.I., Barco. or Christie..... or where ever to come and do it.

Mark

Mark-when cars went from mechanical points in the distributor to pointless ignition systems and "black box" control we all said "Don't drive your car too far from home because if the ignition plays up you can't fix it!!"
The reality is that these systems rarely cause trouble and you can drive your car a lot further now without the worry of your points wearing out.Still very few people know how to repair the Black Boxes but MOST people would be able to handle replacing a Black Box!
You must have seen in your line of work that people who "repair" modern electronic equipment are usually just "board jockeys"-they carry a full compliment of PC Bds for the equipment and keep changing the boards untill the fault is fixed.The equipment or knowledge required to repair modern PC bds is generally not available to most repairers.I can't see why D-Cinema would be any different from this-if a fault appears in your system you would contact your dealer, explain the fault,wait till the appropriate PC Bd arrives by courier,replace it-problem fixed.This is the exact system we are currently using at the moment with our mechanical projectors except that "sometimes" you can temporarily fix a mechanical problem to keep the show running untill the new part arrives.This is also totally dependant on the knowledge of the operator-not all of us are "FILM GODS" yet! [beer]

Ian

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-14-2005, 01:53 PM:

Kodak Digital Cinema Services

quote:
A digital cinema system is as strong as the company that stands behind it. As you enter the digital arena with all the benefits it offers, you have the added peace of mind that comes from working with Kodak...

KODAK Service begins with the first site inspection—so we know your exhibitor partners personally and can design our network in ways that fit best into each facility, connect to its automation and ticketing systems, and are consistent with its workflow.

As we install the KODAK System, our service team verifies its consistent performance—and conducts all operator training. We don’t leave until everything is working the way you expect—and the exhibitor understands. Even then, we’re only a phone call away.

Kodak offers four service plans, including those that come with parts and with on-site attention from a Kodak engineer. You and your exhibitor partner can purchase the plan that best meets your needs. Every KODAK Service Plan includes annual preventative maintenance visits, phone access to Kodak engineers, remote and secure monitoring—and diagnostics—of key components, and automatic software updates to maintain full system functionality.

Kodak maintains remote parts terminals throughout the world and system components can be shipped within 24 hours. Where exhibitors have a significant number of sites in one city or area, other arrangements can be made.

Kodak Digital Cinema at ShoWest 2005

quote:
Check out Kodak's latest feature solution using the new Kodak CineServer and Barco 2K DLP projectors.

Please join Kodak Monday, March 14, for "An Evening of Independent Film" featuring a special digital pre-show and full-feature digital experience, at the Century Orleans 18 Theatre. Screenings at 6 p.m. and 9 p.m., with a reception following the first screening.

Ongoing demonstrations of the Kodak Digital Cinema Solution during tradeshow hours in Palace Room 3 at Bally's (across from the tradeshow floor). RSVP for Monday night or schedule a day/time to visit the Kodak demo room.

Posted by William Hooper (Member # 71) on 03-15-2005, 01:00 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Regarding the Super Bowl specifically, that's a freely available network broadcast (at least it is here in the United States). Most people will watch that at home, or over at a friend's home. If they go to any commercial venue to watch it, they'll visit a restaurant or bar. Not very many movie theaters in this country will serve you beer and snacks during a big game.

I know of at least one PAC which got permission to run a network college bowl game broadcast. Filled the house; they sold beer, hot dogs & other concession stand fare. As far as multiplexes go, without an alcohol license I don't know if it would fly, but drafthouse-type places might do well with it.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-18-2005, 06:25 PM:

Lets see...the easy stuff...

HD-SDI that is a standard ANSI/SMPTE definition and has nothing to do with DCinema other than DCinema is currently using it as the transmission medium from the server to the projector. It allows for Hi-Definition signals. Prior to that was SD-SDI which is just standard definition 480 lines. Most in the trade will just refer to SD-SDI as just "SDI" and HD as HDSDI. Both SDI and HDSDI can also have audio embedded in the signal too so a single coax can carry video and audio.

With the standard comes everything one needs to use it, like cabling and such. Since HDSDI has no problem with 1080p material up to 60Hz it has been a good choice and a standard.

Next comes the copy protection schemes. Within the industry, there is something that is called DCI or Digital Cinema Initiative. This little group is supposed to be laying the ground rules for all of the DCinema manufacturers so regardless of system, if the system is DCI compliant, the system will work.

Part of the DCI is copy protection. At no point during the video signal's transmission is the signal un encrypted. Thus, the "film" is transferred to the the theatre by various means in a totally encrypted form.

A DCI compliant system must have a key of some sort to authorize the player to play and partially un-encrypt the signal so it may be sent to the video projector. As I understand it, each player must be registered for the key to work and the key will work any player within the complex (so you may move a "film" without needing a different key).

Note I said partially decrypted. DCI also has this thing called the "Link" that has the video projector itself perform the final decryption. Thus, even and HDSDI monitor looking at the output of the player would not be able to provide a picture. The Link feature I believe is on the TI boards themselves (and will be on any DCI complient system). There is to be no viewable picture available at any point within the chain until final projection.

I don't know if this is part of the DCI, but one of the players will shut down if you open up the chassis and will require "Re authorization" before it can decode any futher material.

As to servicing Digital projectors? Yes, Mark, I've done that too...changed boards and everything. As to the grand/hour or grand/day...nope not there yet but getting there.

Steve

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 03-18-2005, 09:02 PM:

Up until the NFL shut us (and every other casino in town) down in 2003 that's exactly what we did at the Brenden Palms--served beer and wine and bar food to sold-out houses watching the "big game" on 22x29' screens. Analog off-the-air signal, so no encryption hassles. Had we been allowed to continue I would have gone to HD and 22x39' screens. Too bad the NFL has such a hard-on for anything related to sports betting and Las Vegas. Every sports book in town still shows the game, now they just do it with a whole bunch of home theater screens, hundreds of little ones instead of four big ones.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 03-18-2005, 09:44 PM:

In a sports bar, what size screen attracts the attention of the rights holder? I would think 16 x 9 foot rear screen HD displays filling the walls of a sports bar would be a really neat venue, but when does the "entertainment" become more important than the food and drink to the extent that the lawyers come knocking?

I do know that the NFL came down hard on some local sports bars that were showing games that were being "blacked out" in Rochester NY and Ontario Canada when the Bills played at home in Buffalo, even on regular TV sets.

http://www.sportslawnews.com/archive/articles%201999/NFLBars.htm

quote:
The NFL has successfully sued more than 100 pubs in the United States and Canada in the past five years for showing blacked-out games. According to the Tribune News Service, the league was awarded $440,000 (Canadian) because three southwestern Ontario-area establishments had televised blacked-out Buffalo Bills games.

Both lawsuits seek $200,000 in damages per game from each bar and an injunction to stop the bars from broadcasting future games.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 03-18-2005, 10:11 PM:

For us the magic number is 55". I'm sure they just pulled that number out of their butts. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 04-10-2006, 05:00 PM:

It has been 387 days since the last post.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-10-2006, 05:00 PM:

I guess this thread is as appropriate as any for this post...

Vancouver's Cinetopia has converted 7 of their screens to "2K Super High Definition" DLP. Or is it 8 screens? [Confused]

SPECIAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Cinetopia is the Northwest’s only all Digital Super High Definition multiplex theater. As of March 31, 2006 Cinetopia has seven (7) new state of the art Christie 2k Super High Definition Digital Projectors.

Cinetopia now proudly show cases its Digital Light Projection systems (DLP) in all eight (8) of its auditoriums*. Cinetopia will become the Northwest's only pure digital movie going environment (sound and picture) offering its viewing audience the following remarkable amenities:

1. Super High Definition capability on all 8 screens* – 2050 lines of resolution which is greater than what HD TV technology offers.

2. Super High Definition Movies digitally projected on screens up to 50 feet in width.

3. Over 35 trillion color variations bringing remarkable vivid color to the screen.

4. 2000 to 1 Contrast Ratio.

5. A perfect blemish free presentation every show. Conventional 35 mm film rapidly deteriorates over time as dust, dirt, and scratches accumulate each time a movie is presented. Colors also fade as the film is exposed to heat from the projector. Because they come from computer content and not film, Digital movies will run blemish free indefinitely, retaining their remarkable life like image show after show.

6. Real 3D technology. Several times a year feature films will be released in a Real 3D format, a new technology that allows viewers to watch 3D films with a life like virtual reality feel to them.

7. Perfect focus every show. Several human and film related factors regularly cause 35mm film to be out of focus. Digital projectors are focused by a computer and then locked in to perfect focus show after show.

8. Accrurate [sic] and Consistent Light Distribution Across the Screen. Digital projectors and their computer components accurately and consistently distribute an even amount of light accross a movie screen whereas 35 mm film projectors often throw light unevenly across the screen. Moreover, 35mm projector bulbs fade as the bulbs wear out. This causes the images on the screen to look dim. In contrast a digital projector and its computer components will increase the power to a bulb and brighten the picture if it detects a bulb is wearing out.

* Most films will be presented in Digital Super High Definition. Check our website and newspaper listings to confirm which films are scheduled in Digital High Definition.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-10-2006, 06:06 PM:

Woo hoo. By that standard, if 3 more pixels are added to the image then it can be called "ultra mega phiggidy defintion digital cinema."

Normally one would need a significant jump in pixel count to use a term like "super high defintion." As far as I'm concerned, there's not all that big a leap between 1920 pixels across and 2050 pixels. Certainly not enough to warrant some bullshit "super" term. I'm not even sure I could go along with the "super" term being applied to native 4K level material. That's still only in the native detail realm of 35mm.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 04-10-2006, 06:39 PM:

This is setting off the B.S. Meter bigtime!

quote: David Stambaugh
Moreover, 35mm projector bulbs fade as the bulbs wear out. This causes the images on the screen to look dim.

That can happen with a DLP xenon as well.

quote: David Stambaugh
In contrast a digital projector and its computer components will increase the power to a bulb and brighten the picture if it detects a bulb is wearing out.

A 35mm projector and its human components can crank up the current to brighten a picture if it detects a bulb is wearing out...

[Mad]

-Aaron

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-10-2006, 06:47 PM:

Hey, just for the record, I didn't say that stuff - Cinetopia said it! I just quoted them. [Big Grin]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 04-10-2006, 06:52 PM:

quote: David Stambaugh
Hey, just for the record, I didn't say that stuff - Cinetopia said it! I just quoted them

Yes, but it resulted in the posting of the BS meter... by itself, well worth the thread! [Smile]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-10-2006, 07:23 PM:

I'm suprised we haven't had to use this meter more often! Louis

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 04-11-2006, 01:37 AM:

I just got it working again... [Smile]

-Aaron

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 04-11-2006, 09:05 AM:

quote: David Stambaugh
1. Super High Definition capability on all 8 screens* – 2050 lines of resolution which is greater than what HD TV technology offers.

I do like how the use the number of lines as a reference. The number they use is across.

Isn't the normal standard, up / down which would only be 1K, not 2.

quote: David Stambaugh
Digital projectors are focused by a computer and then locked in to perfect focus show after show.

Ummm, no. You still have a focus knob. Granted you may not have to adjust it, but no.

quote: David Stambaugh
Digital projectors and their computer components accurately and consistently distribute an even amount of light accross a movie screen whereas 35 mm film projectors often throw light unevenly across the screen.

ummm, no. The power supply can increase power requirements to the bulb to keep up a certain number of FL, but there is nothing inside that keeps the light spread even. That is done during setup.

They should stick with the name of Digital Cinema, rather than Digital High Definition. Unless they are showing HD content.

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-11-2006, 06:06 PM:

Some corrections:

quote: Paul Konen
Ummm, no. You still have a focus knob. Granted you may not have to adjust it, but no.

The CP2000 projector that Cinetopia is using does not have a focus knob. Lamp focus is adjusted using the control panel on the projector.

quote: Paul Konen
ummm, no. The power supply can increase power requirements to the bulb to keep up a certain number of FL, but there is nothing inside that keeps the light spread even.

To the best of my knowledge, the Christie projector used there has a sensor at the end of the light guide that can sense illumination and compensate for it automatically by adjusting the focus.

quote:
Vancouver's Cinetopia has converted 7 of their screens to "2K Super High Definition" DLP. Or is it 8 screens? [Confused]

To answer David's question, there was already a Barco projector installed during opening. The article is referring to the 7 new Christie projectors added recently.

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 04-11-2006, 06:49 PM:

quote: Tristan Lane
To the best of my knowledge, the Christie projector used there has a sensor at the end of the light guide that can sense illumination and compensate for it automatically by adjusting the focus.

True. We have 102 CP2000 now.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 04-11-2006, 10:00 PM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
True. We have 102 CP2000 now.

I thought that you had been installing NEC systems? So the 102 new systems were funded by AccessIT as part of the Christie/AIX deal announced last November? Are all the new servers JPEG2000 compatible (Doremi)? I hear the originally announced plan of completion by December 31 ended up being mid-February.

Do you still have any of the original systems from Barco/Boeing or NEC in operation?

Posted by Michael Schaffer (Member # 1204) on 04-12-2006, 02:51 AM:

Yes to all in the first paragraph - I never saw end of December as really possible, but it's good to have goals and deadlines, although the vast majority of the systems was ready for action not long after. Obviously, we aren't playing digital everywhere since that depends on how many releases are available. But it has gotten more and more.
We don't have any Barco or NEC systems left.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-12-2006, 05:08 AM:

I wonder what has become of all of the Barco and Christie 1.3K systems that were installed on the 1st go around of DCinema.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-12-2006, 06:07 AM:

quote: John Pytlak
Do you still have any of the original systems from Barco/Boeing or NEC in operation?

Those systems would be how old now; five years or so? I can't imagine anyone asking "Do you still have any of those five year old film projectors in use?" I still think it's too early for most cinemas to move into this technology on a purely commercial basis.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 04-12-2006, 08:56 AM:

As far as Barco is concerned, they hope to resell them in non-cinema applications.

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 04-12-2006, 09:16 AM:

quote: Tristan Lane
The CP2000 projector that Cinetopia is using does not have a focus knob. Lamp focus is adjusted using the control panel on the projector.

Unless there CP2000 is different from mine, I can't believe it. I don't think you can get that fine of control of focus with a computer panel than you can with the human hand.

quote: Tristan Lane
To the best of my knowledge, the Christie projector used there has a sensor at the end of the light guide that can sense illumination and compensate for it automatically by adjusting the focus.

The sensor at the end of the light path is used for lumen output, not focus. The image isn't even formed yet because the light hasn't hit the Prism or DMDs.

quote: Steve Guttag
I wonder what has become of all of the Barco and Christie 1.3K systems that were installed on the 1st go around of DCinema.

They are sitting dark, at least mine is, because the studios won't allow any content to be played on them. They don't like the idea of down converting a 2K data feed to a 1.3K image. Funny thing is they were ok with it for years. This has / will anger owners who were early adopters and now are dark.

Please don't start with the "I told you so" stuff.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-12-2006, 11:28 AM:

But I thought "digital" always equaled perfect!
[Razz]

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 04-12-2006, 01:00 PM:

Paul,

I have a few questions for you about your Digital screen:

1) How big is the screen?
2) Is it common width or height?
3) Does your digital projector have an anamorphic lens installed for scope?
4) In your honest opinion how does a "scope" film look on that screen presented digitally vs. your film presentation?

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-12-2006, 01:29 PM:

quote: Michael Schaffer
We have 102 CP2000 now

Michael, assuming you've been involved in setting some of those up, or you've at least seen some in action, what is your honest opinion of the image quality, compared to a typical "good" 35mm presentation (not a showprint).

(If you've already covered that I guess I missed it)

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 04-12-2006, 11:01 PM:

quote: Paul Konen
I don't think you can get that fine of control of focus with a computer panel than you can with the human hand.

Imax projectors use motorized image focus mechanisms.

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 04-13-2006, 11:31 AM:

Adam, are those motors controlled through a rocker switch or a computer touch panel? The Touch Panel Controller on a CP2000 seems slow to acknowledge your actually touching it, hence fine control over focus.
Lyle

1) How big is the screen?
Answer: 33' tall x 61' wide
2) Is it common width or height?
Answer: Common Width
3) Does your digital projector have an anamorphic lens installed for scope?
Answer: No, one lense always.
4) In your honest opinion how does a "scope" film look on that screen presented digitally vs. your film presentation?
Answer: Yes, I have felt for the last 7 years that DLP films have looked great. And that opinion was there when the projector was just a 1.3K system.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-13-2006, 11:55 AM:

quote: Paul Konen
4) In your honest opinion how does a "scope" film look on that screen presented digitally vs. your film presentation?
Answer: Yes, I have felt for the last 7 years that DLP films have looked great. And that opinion was there when the projector was just a 1.3K system.

A lot of this depends on the quality of the film system when comparing it to DLP. Paul's film setup has quite a bit of jitter to the image from the projector and excessive heat, both of which are major image killers. I feel it is an unfair comparison.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 04-13-2006, 12:30 PM:

quote: Paul Konen
Adam, are those motors controlled through a rocker switch or a computer touch panel? The Touch Panel Controller on a CP2000 seems slow to acknowledge your actually touching it, hence fine control over focus.

Both ... focus is usually performed by a button on the wired pendant or by the touch screen on the PLC. The computer breaks focus range down into 128 "steps" and displays the number on the PLC screen, so it's really easy to fine tune the focus. Push the button briefly and it movies one step, hold the button and it moves quicker.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 04-15-2006, 04:21 AM:

How are digital features being delivered these days? I suppose they aren’t going via phone line or satellite yet. Last time I checked, they were on hard drives. What is the cost now to get a digital copy to a theatre?

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-15-2006, 02:32 PM:

Some digital versions of movies are delivered to theaters on portable or removeable hard discs. Some are delivered on a series of DVDs.

As to the satellite question, yes, some movies are being delivered via satellite. The system AccessIT and Christie are putting into lots of theaters receives its movies from a large, proprietary satellite dish mounted to the roof of the theater. If the digital bitstream being sent to these theaters complies with the 150Mb/s to 250Mb/s JPEG 2000 D-Cinema spec, my guess is it will take quite a bit longer than just 2 hours to download the movies to the theater's central data server.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-15-2006, 02:45 PM:

More like twenty hours to download a complete movie with DCI required specs. I think that is one of the issues that they want to work on at the Technicolor facility they set up for testing equipment.