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Posted by David Buckley (Member # 2600) on 02-26-2005, 03:19 AM:
 
Theres some good spin (and to be honest, ), and its only 2K, but it got the BBC excited...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4297865.stm

The world's first digital cinema network will be established in the UK over the next 18 months.

The UK Film Council has awarded a £11.5m contract to Arts Alliance Digital Cinema (AADC), who will set up the network of up to 250 screens.

AADC will oversee the selection of cinemas across the UK which will use the digital equipment.

High definition projectors and computer servers will be installed to show mainly British and specialist films.

Most cinemas currently have mechanical projectors but the new network will see up to 250 screens in up to 150 cinemas fitted with digital projectors capable of displaying high definition images.

The new network will double the world's total of digital screens.

Cinemas will be given the film on a portable hard drive and they will then copy the content to a computer server.

Visually lossless

Each film is about 100 gigabytes and has been compressed from an original one terabyte-size file.

Fiona Deans, associate director of AADC, said the compression was visually lossless so no picture degradation will occur.

The film will all be encrypted to prevent piracy and each cinema will have an individual key which will unlock the movie.

"People will see the picture quality is a bit clearer with no scratches.

"The picture will look exactly the same as when the print was first made - there is no degradation in quality over time."

Key benefit

The key benefit of the digital network will be an increase in the distribution and screening of British films, documentaries and foreign language films.


"Access to specialised film is currently restricted across the UK," said Pete Buckingham, head of Distribution and Exhibition at the UK Film Council.

"Although a genuine variety of films is available in central London and a few other metropolitan areas, the choice for many outside these areas remains limited, and the Digital Screen Network will improve access for audiences across the UK,"

Digital prints costs less than a traditional 35mm print - giving distributors more flexibility in how they screen films, said Ms Deans.

"It can cost up to £1,500 to make a copy of a print for specialist films. "In the digital world you can make prints for considerably less than that.

"Distributors can then send out prints to more cinemas and prints can stay in cinemas for much longer."

The UK digital network will be the first to employ 2k projectors - which are capable of showing films at resolutions of 2048 * 1080 pixels.

A separate comeptitive process to determine which cinemas will receive the digital screening technology will conclude in May.

The sheer cost of traditional prints means that some cinemas need to show them twice a day in order to recoup costs.

"Some films need word of month and time to build momentum - they don't need to be shown twice a day," explained Ms Deans.

"A cinema will often book a 35mm print in for two weeks - even if the film is a roaring success they cannot hold on to the print because it will have to go to antother cinema.

"With digital prints, every cinema will have its own copy."
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 02-26-2005, 03:51 AM:
 
This is now old news. The BBC carried a story on it in about May last year, and there were posts about it from both Leo Enticknap and myself about it in this forum. I think this was in the 'More d-cinema morons' thread.
 

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Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 02-26-2005, 05:19 AM:
 
Greetings All having returned from the continent.

I note that Arts Alliance appear to have clinched the deal to 'select' the cinemas which will be equipped with 2K digital projectors and servers. I wonder how many City Screen Cinemas will be the worthy benefactors of Arts Alliance handouts? I find it such a shame that Odeon/UCI/CineUK/Showcase/UGC (delete as appropriate) will have no hand in deciding which of their theatres will be recipients of this manna from heaven.

Congratulations are due to City Screen on their forthcoming establishment (no doubt) of the UK's first 100% digital circuit. Jolly well done chaps!

Good evening

David
 

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Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 02-26-2005, 05:34 AM:
 
Three questions:

1. How can they install all the equipment for 46,000UKP per screen?

2. Where are they going to get digital "prints" of specialty films? To date, very few (if any) art/foreign/specialty titles are available for screenings.

3. Are they just funding the initial installation, or will there be additional funding for ongoing support, maintenance, and upgrades?

Personally, I think that the whole thing sounds like a load of , but whatever....
 

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Posted by Matthew Nock (Member # 1575) on 02-26-2005, 05:40 AM:
 

quote: David Buckley

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The sheer cost of traditional prints means that some cinemas need to show them twice a day in order to recoup costs.

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quote: David Buckley

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A cinema will often book a 35mm print in for two weeks - even if the film is a roaring success they cannot hold on to the print because it will have to go to antother cinema.

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quote:

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Each film is about 100 gigabytes and has been compressed from an original one terabyte-size file.
Fiona Deans, associate director of AADC, said the compression was visually lossless so no picture degradation will occur.....People will see the picture quality is a bit clearer with no scratches.

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quote: David Buckley

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Most cinemas currently have mechanical projectors but the new network will see up to 250 screens in up to 150 cinemas fitted with digital projectors capable of displaying high definition images.

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quote:

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Scott Norwood

1. How can they install all the equipment for 46,000UKP per screen?

2. Where are they going to get digital "prints" of specialty films? To date, very few (if any) art/foreign/specialty titles are available for screenings.

3. Are they just funding the initial installation, or will there be additional funding for ongoing support, maintenance, and upgrades?

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quote:

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Frank Angel
I guess if the limo owner applied the UK Film Council's thinking to his business, he would buy a new limo every time his operator got it scratched.....instead of hiring an operator WHO KNOWS HOW TO DRIVE!

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quote: Scott Norwood

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3. Are they just funding the initial installation, or will there be additional funding for ongoing support, maintenance, and upgrades? [...] Perhaps it would be a lot cheaper for the British exhibtion industry to hire people who know how to operate the "mechanical" projectors and who don't scratch film, than it is to install new equipement.

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Agreed. And I do wonder if they have really factored in the cost of scanning (from film originals) or transcoding (from 24pHD originals) for release. I recently paid £4k to have 632 feet of 16mm Dufaycolor scanned at 2k resoultion (and another £1.5k for a 35mm interneg and digibeta made from the scan). Consider the cost of getting a 35mm feature scanned (someone who works for a small distributor recently quoted the figure of $10k for a 5,500 foot silent - more than three times what his normal print inventory would cost). An arthouse distributor like the BFI or Artificial Eye simply won't be able to afford that. And as for us archivists, we're buggered. We might as well put all our 16mm and 35mm viewing copies in the skip right now - once this scheme takes hold theatrical audiences will be lucky if they get to see the stuff we've preserved in digibeta.

Even if you accept the principle whereby digital HD projection could be an effective way of increasing audiences for or the quality of non-mainstream product, I still think that FCUK (as it's known to its friends!) has jumped way too early. If, for example, the Sony 4K system achieves a significant market saturation for mainstream stuff within the next 2-3 years then arthouse exhibitors will be stuck with an inferior product and a very restricted inventory of titles that can be shown on it. My big fear is that when this all shakes out, most screenings in reality will be from a lo-res 525 or 625-line source - probably DVDs. Attendances at these theatres will fall, because the mainstream theatres will have vastly superior projection which even technically illiterate customers will recognise as such, and UKFC will have blown a huge chunk of taxpayers' cash.

BTW, interesting that the stock photo in the BBC's story was last used to illustrate one about the opening night of the last Star Wars film...
 

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 02-28-2005, 07:22 AM:
 

quote: Leo Enticknap

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and UKFC will have blown a huge chunk of taxpayers' cash

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quote: Kevin Markwick

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The film council is funded by the national lottery, not really tax payers money.

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quote: UKFC Accounts

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The Film Council is responsible for all DCMS Grant-in-aid for film (except the National Film and Television School). [...] The UKFC has also been designated a Lottery distributor under the National Lottery Act 1993...

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quote: UKFC Digital Cinema Network information page

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The UK Film Council can make a significant but essentially only limited number of equipment awards. Assessment of applications will be based first upon the quality of the applicant’s commitment to specialised film, then on the combination of access (Example 1), supply (Example 2) and any other factors UK Film Council determine as relevant.

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Of course if AA want to use the bulk discount buying power that comes with being UKFC's supplier and installer in order to equip City Screen sites with projectors that either failed to get one under the UKFC scheme and/or didn't apply to it at a much lower cost than an independent or other small chain could, then there's nothing to stop them from doing that.
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 03-03-2005, 11:03 AM:
 
Why are governments getting involved in cinema? Shouldn't they be spending money on schools, transport and hospitals?

Ironically, I think independent cinemas that sign up to these schemes (and they want to copy the UK example here as well) are going to end up being much less "independent"

The other issue - which is becoming more apparent - is that D-Cinema installation alongside an existing 35mm install is not easy. If you mount the 2K DLP etc. to the left or right of your console, you must leave operator access and that significantly increases the offset from the horizontal projection centreline (assuming the 35mm is on centre). This of course is even more pronounced in changeover booths - which ironically are more prevalent in the very independent and art-house sites targeted by e.g. the UKFC. (These comments assume standard ceiling heights, but even if you can go high to maintain geometric correctness, what provision can be made for access to ventilation grilles, lamp assemblies, the lens mount, etc. etc.?). And we haven't even started on moving the platter, possibly installing remote faders / control surfaces and interfacing to the automation.

You've got significant building and electrical work to do too, possibly installation of new booth HVAC, and you must really upgrade your analogue sound system as well if you have one, to get the full benefit of the new format. That's more power amps, speakers, etc. And again, many of the independent and arthouse cinemas are analogue-only installs, often with less than ideal acoustics, etc. (It should be said that CityScreen in the UK bucked that trend by building THX-certified auditoria etc. and they must be heartily congratulated for it).

The other irony is that filthy booths with carpet, bare walls, etc. - that are responsible for the "inevitable" scratching and deterioration of 35mm prints - will be unchanged with a digital projector. That will lead to just the same problems with digital screenings, as the unit and the server pack up because of clogged intakes, contamination, etc. And you'll still be projecting often onto a screen with no masking or tabs. So it's digital - so what? You're still getting below-par presentation.

I think D-Cinema has marvellous possibilities in terms of showing live events, interactivity, and so on. But all this is forgotten because the agenda is being driven in my view by non-cinema people, and to what end is not clear either. I believe the introduction of this new medium is being done for all the wrong reasons. It shouldn't be about saving money or forcing the screening of essentially sub-standard work. It should be done for its strength and possibilities, and with respect to the mature medium of film
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 03-03-2005, 02:12 PM:
 

quote: Brian Guckian

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Why are governments getting involved in cinema?

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quote: Dick Vaughan

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Melanie Rodier in Rome
04 March 2005 04:00

Italy is finally getting on the digital bandwagon. National exhibitors association ANEC has announced that 50 Italian cinemas will invest in digital projectors by the beginning of 2006.

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quote: Dick Vaughan

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"At the moment, Italy is very behind other territories in terms of digital acquisition, distribution and exhibition," D'Alessio said, pointing to the US, UK, Singapore and India as leaders

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quote: Dick Vaughan

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D'Alessio says he expects a digital roll-out to begin around the world from mid-2006.

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quote:

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Gracious me! Look at all those Arts Alliance owned City Screen Cinemas that are now going to have a digital projector. Predictable eh!?

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quote: Stephen Furley

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Quite frankly, I think you would have difficulty finding enough cinemas whose programming policy includes the type of material which this scheme is supposed to be intended for if you didn't include any City Screen ones.

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quote: Stephen Furley

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I think I've missed some of the posts in thread; I'm not clear what the relationship between Arts Alliance and City Screen is, and what involvment Arts Alliance had in this scheme.

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quote:

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Did they [Arts Alliance] actually select the cinemas to be equipped?

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quote: Myself

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I think a lot of people do. It's not a question of being pro or anti digital per se, I just cannot see how this scheme can possibly give value for money. The costs are so high, and the possible benefits rather limited. I just think the money could be much better spent in other ways.

<snip>

As I understand it, this was partly funded by the National Lottery; If I'd been responsible for assessing the application I would have turned it down flat, for several reasons:

It is available only to currently operating cinemas, Im not sure if that includes multi-purpose venues that show film part time, but it doesn't allow for opening new cinemas, or resurecting dormant ones, and therefore does nothing for people wth no access at all to a cinema within a reasonable distance.

The digital equipmant is supposed to vastly improve access to minority film, or words to that effect. While it is not being used it is making no improvement at all. For there to be any benefit at all a film screening must take place using it that could not have been done without it, or could only be done with a poor quality film print or video. When this happens, and assuming that there are people who come to see it, there will be some benefit, I'm not sure how you put a value on it, but it will have to be a hell of a big benefit to justify the costs involved.

It is claimed that it will enable people in other parts of the Country to see films which at the moment are seldom seen outside London. All very good, but if the films are being screened in London then prints must exist, which could be screened elsewhere. You could make a few more prints, and transport them, for vastly less cost than this. Also, a fair number of the cinemas selected are in - London! Others are already very well equipped, and some even have digital.

I would far rather have seen the money spent on making a few more prints, making modest improvements to the equipment in existing cinemas, and equipping existing buildings, public halls, arts venues etc., to show film in towns and villages where there is no existing cinema. Good reconditioned equipment FP-20s, Vic. 5s, CP-65s etc. doesn't cost that much, <snip>
Im sure that this could deliver greater benefits in terms of the stated aims of the project, at far lower cost.

My prediction is that much of the equipment will be little used, and when it is used it will be showing material that is available on film, or which exists only on video, and could have been shown using a normal video projector. I also predict that it will not broaden the programming policy of most of the cinemas where it is installed. In short, very little benefit, at very high cost.

What would be interesting is for full records to be kept, and published, of all digital screenings made, the films involved, where there were shown, numbers of tickets sold, and the alternatives, i.e. readily available on 35mm, only poor quality film print available, only available on video, not otherwise available etc. so we can judge the success of this project in its own terms, but I bet that won't happen. Meanwhile there are many local organisations that cannot get funding of just a few thousand pounds from the Lottery to make vital improvements, that in some cases will mean closure.

Something else interesting; a few months ago I was speaking to a manager of a cinema, I won't name it, but it's a long was from London. She told me that they had applied to this UKFC digital thing, but that they didn't expect to be selected. They were doubtful that they had much to gain if they were selected, but felt that they really had to try, because they had nothing to lose, and if it turned out that they were wrong, and the digital thing did become really necessary, there was no way they would ever be able to afford it themselves. As it turns out, they have been selected.

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quote: Stephen Furley

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...the figures you quote are somewhat lower than I was expecting; maybe prices are starting to come down, or maybe you just get a discount if you buy over 200 of the things.

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quote: Leo Enticknap

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I put the headline cost relative to 35mm issue to him during the Q & A, and actually suggested that it would be less suitable for distributing arthouse and minority interest films than 35mm, because of the small number of prints needed relative to a Hollywood blockbuster.

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quote: Hugh McCullough

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The projectors cost between £40,000 and £60,000 each depending on who you are talking to.
The cinema will have to pay the Value Added Tax (VAT) on the cost of the machine.This will be between £7,000 and £10,500.

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Converted to US dollars for purposes of astonishment:

The projectors cost between $72,000 and $109,000 each depending on who you are talking to.
The cinema will have to pay the Value Added Tax (VAT) on the cost of the machine.This will be between $12,700 and $19,000.
 

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Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 06-02-2005, 04:16 AM:
 
The unusually high value of the pound against the dollar at the moment is probably amplifying the astonishment factor a bit - and making a nice export sale for Texas Instruments, if TI is supplying the projectors.
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 06-02-2005, 04:25 AM:
 
William, I think you'd better leave it in pounds; it sounds even worse converted to dollars.
 

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Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 06-02-2005, 01:51 PM:
 
Greetings All

Who cares what they're putting in now. Give it a few years and the equipment will be as obsolete as a monaural sound system or indeed a Bell and Howell 666A or a CP50 - use whatever analogy you care. What a waste of money. It's a shame AA (Arts Alliance that is not the other 'AA') have not looked at the new Dolby server that is now out, and running a number of major West End theatres at the moment. At least they will support their own equipment when technology overtakes what is going in at the moment - or indeed upgrade it like they did the DA10's that were all over the place in the early '90's. As far as my large eyes can see, there's going to be the equivalent of around 200 cinemas with pretty much useless equipment in a couple of years time. That is, of course, unless they invest in brand new equipment as and when it is available. We all know that there are still a number of Kinemas out there still running with CP50's! No doubt there will be room for further analogy. Entries to this thread please. The best entry wins high tea at my lodgings at a date to be decided.

With pessimism, I bid you all a very very good evening.

David
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-17-2005, 02:26 PM:
 
So what's happening? Has any equipment been installed yet? Anybody actually seen a show because of it that they couldn't have seen otherwise? Any minority/art house type films been transferred to digital that wouldn't have been without this scheme?

If not, do we have any dates for any of things? Any list of film titles which will be made available?
 

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Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 07-18-2005, 08:11 AM:
 
As far as I know the first installations are due in during August but it will take up to 18 months to complete the rollout.
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 07-18-2005, 09:58 AM:
 
I'm glad I'm not holding my breath!
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 09-28-2005, 02:09 AM:
 

quote: Dick Vaughan

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As far as I know the first installations are due in during August

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Anything actually installed yet?
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-28-2005, 02:19 AM:
 
Not round these parts..

One was put in in for the Edinburgh International Film Festival, in Filmhouse. They had enormous problems with sound hums, the Filmhouse is notorious for hums at the best of times.
 

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Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 09-28-2005, 07:46 AM:
 
It is aleged that there are 6 installations completed as of today with at least 2 being in Central London and 2 being in Sheffield
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-28-2005, 08:20 AM:
 
FYI: In the Americas, the majority (90-95%) of the Digital TV installations were installed at no charge for "trial." Would YOU like to be the first guy to actually PAY for this? Louis

(I will say that at zero, they are fairly priced!)
 

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Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 09-28-2005, 09:51 AM:
 
The Curzon Soho has two machines however they have not been used yet.
 

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Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 09-29-2005, 03:34 PM:
 
Greetings All from Cambridge

I believe the phrase goes 'Way-hay. Way to go Curzon SoHo'.

This theatre must now be the first West End theatre to house 2 digital projectors!!. I wonder if any theatres in the west End will achieve the first of having 4 projectors, just like in the old days when the Regal Marble Arch could run extended reels in 3-D with 4 proper machines?

Those indeed were the days

From Cambridge good night

David
 

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Posted by Peter Hall (Member # 695) on 09-30-2005, 12:21 AM:
 
Greetings from Peckham !

David - a curious comparism, two strip 3D and D cinema ! Is this to infer the same fate ?
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 09-30-2005, 11:07 AM:
 

 

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Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 10-01-2005, 04:29 AM:
 
Greeting as well Peckham dweller!

I would certainly not be as cynical as to suggest such a thing. What will they think of next! 3D digital?!

Regards from a warm, yet blustery Cambridge

David
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-01-2005, 06:48 PM:
 
Dear Mr. Rose

Greetings from Dublin's (soon to be Digital) Fair City.

If I may be so bold and and enquire if you have given any thought to...

Digitising the audience!

Surely this is the next frontier in low-cost audio-visual entertainment!
 

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Posted by Kevin Baglow (Member # 721) on 10-01-2005, 07:59 PM:
 
Digital cinema ...Its a bit like introducing frozen microwave dinners into restaurants to save on a chef’s salary. Executives seem to ignore the apparent demise of the suburban Cineplex, and rise of the super up-market, and Imax theatres.
There are some great microwave dinners (local Docos and features) but they were never meant for 5 star restaurant!!!

How big a BUST will it take these high rolling ''genius'' executives to wake up and smell the MAXIVISION
 

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Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 10-04-2005, 03:02 PM:
 
Greetings All from Cambridge;

Quote;

"Digital cinema ...Its a bit like introducing frozen microwave dinners into restaurants to save on a chef’s salary."

I believe the term over here in the UK, which I have been brought to use from time to time, is 'Bullshit'. In my book frozen dinners are crap items that I have to endure when my housekeeper, Mrs. Welsh, is away on her soujourns to Lamorna Cove.

Digital Cinema, when done correctly, can not be bettered at this stage in the game, even by 70mm width film.

I do not see how this weak comparison is valid. One wonders if the author of this comment, has indeed witnessed digital cinema.

What the industry needs with respect to digital cinema, is projection booth operatives with brains, and not cat food for brains, which is the norm over here in the UK.

From Cambridge

David
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-04-2005, 05:03 PM:
 
David said "Digital Cinema, when done correctly, can not be bettered at this stage in the game, even by 70mm width film"
I think the file size to match a release print on 5 perf 70 from a 5 perf camera negative would be massive and I don't think any of the current projectors could do it and the cost would be massive
 

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Posted by Kevin Baglow (Member # 721) on 10-04-2005, 07:21 PM:
 
Sorry David, but you haven't done your homework. In the LARGE FORMAT forum I reviewed the 32 megapixel 8K JVC Cinema and Sony Laser Cinemas.... that I visited last month in EXPO '05 Japan (the catfood for brains part is probably right though )
The DVD of expo is available on www.filmtheatres.com (for free)
 

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Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 10-06-2005, 07:40 AM:
 
I think it will be a very long time before Art theatres and second run change overs go Digital. Whats the real point anyway, 35mm seems to work just fine, do you really want to have to deal with a very unstable windows based system just so you can show a doc that was shot on a handy cam and will be playing on several TV channels in the very near future. I've been to lots of film festivals inculding Hot Docs in Toronto and the films that are played on a projection system with a Betacam SP or SX attached seemed fine for what they were showing. If the Doc's good it will be transfered to film. Plus moving digital movies to theatres on hard drives is even more retarded then film can's on the Greyhound. It doesn't take much to screw up a hard drive, baking in the sun, a hard drop, a power surge etc...

Nuff said...

Paul
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-06-2005, 01:45 PM:
 
Maybe they should use purpose built broadcast servers and satellite distribution instead.
 

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Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 10-07-2005, 11:10 AM:
 
True you could go that way. But what happens if theres a storm or a solar flare would you loose the picture?

-Paul
 

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Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 10-07-2005, 03:02 PM:
 
Only if the storm blew away your server (that you downloaded the data to days ... weeks ... months beforehand).
 

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Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 10-07-2005, 04:20 PM:
 
Gotta, thats not to bad then. You just have to hope your server dosen't crash during a show, specailly if its serving several screens. Will the Servers be running on a stable OS like Linux/UNix/ or OS X boxes or on Windows!
 

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Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-09-2005, 04:49 AM:
 

quote: Peter Hall

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The Curzon Soho has two machines however they have not been used yet.

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quote: Peter Hall

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Sort of like the effect you get looking through the AV department of John Lewis's.

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quote:

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Will the Servers be running on a stable OS like Linux/UNix/ or OS X boxes or on Windows!

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quote:

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This is a KODAK-designed in-theatre network of pre-show projectors and LINUX System-based servers. It is driven by unique KODAK Software and supported by Kodak's worldwide service team—with content managed and delivered by Kodak.

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quote:

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KODAK Software is the internal driving force of every KODAK Digital Cinema solution; it provides the unique capability to your in-cinema network in ways that can keep you confidently—and automatically—in control.

Because this is a Java-based application running on the robust LINUX Operating System, the system has all the attributes associated with the LINUX System—including stability, security, and reliability—and is hardware agnostic. The system uses standard components so, as it evolves, Kodak will incorporate those components that offer the best balance of price and performance.

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quote: Mark Hajducki

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With half of the screens set to the wrong aspect ratio and cropping or stretching the image?

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