Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Sound Processor for Satellite Feeds?

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Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-11-2007, 03:26 PM:

We're going to start receiving satellite broadcasts for presentation in our theater. We've got the satellite downlink and a digital projector in the works but we're going to have to get some upgrades to our sound system to make this happen.

While we're at it, I'd like to see if we can get a sound processor that will do double duty for movies and satellite broadcasts.

Right now, there will only be 3 or 4 satellite broadcasts per year. There will be movies every week.

Would a Dolby CP-650 do the job? It's expensive but we could finally get Dolby Digital for all our movies too.

How about that USL JSD-80? That can do Dolby Dig. too. Can't it?

Finally, I saw a processor from Ultra Stereo. (CSP2200) Would that work?

Cost is a big issue. I'd love to get the Dolby unit but it'd be quite a stretch to raise the money. Is there a more budget conscious option?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-11-2007, 03:40 PM:

Just out of interest Randy, what sort of material are you taking by satellite?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-11-2007, 03:44 PM:

From the Metropolitain Opera for starters.

If this idea takes off there will be more things. Ultimately, they'd like to do teleconferencing and similar stuff but that's a long way down the road.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-11-2007, 04:48 PM:

What format is the satellite content in? I'd be surprised if it was more than L/R stereo, and so you could use your existing non-sync inputs. There are piles of cheaper options, though, ranging from cheaper processors to relays after the processor...what're your real requirements, what's your budget (ballpark), and what's your current processor?

--jhawk

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-11-2007, 04:55 PM:

They tell me the sound is in Dolby 5.1.

We have a Smart Mod II-B for our current processor.

Since we will be using the satellite feed only 3 or 4 times per year I would like to get something that we can run regular movies on too, rather than buying something that's going to sit idle for 4 months at a time.

Getting a cinema processor will give us better sound for the movies, it will allow us to finally upgrade to Dolby Digital AND for those few times per year when there are satellite broadcasts from the Met, we can simply turn it on and the existing equipment will do double duty.

I can't give you a specific budget figure. I know there is grant money coming in but the exact figures aren't solid. It all depends on the grant. That's why I have to get the best bang for the buck all around.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-11-2007, 06:18 PM:

There is no reason you couldn't use the MODIIB, except for the fact that it is only a 4-channel processor, and if you want to run 5.1 content you need a 6-channel processor. The CP650 or JSD-80 should both work for you. What type of device will the sound for your satelite feeds be coming from? Presumably a computer of some sort. Will it be an analog or digital source? The JSD80 has an 8-channel analog input, and optionally, and 8-channel AES/EBU input and two S/PDIF inputs for AC3 or Pro Logic decoding. It cannot decode film-based Dolby Digital (SRD). For that, you would need an external DA20. The CP650 (available as CP650D which includes SRD decoding) has a 6-channel analog input and, optionally, an AES/EBU (I think it's 8 channels?) input.

Dolby and USL both make external D/A converters that can be added to an existing cinema processor and accept several sources. That could be something to consider.

The CSP2200 is made by Panastereo. I don't know much at all about their product, but it looks like this processor does not include any film-based formats, so you would need something else if you want to run film and non-film on the same processor.

[Edited to mention the JSD-80 does not include on-board SRD decoding.]

[ 07-11-2007, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Ken Lackner ]

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-11-2007, 10:06 PM:

The Communications Department at this college has two satellite dishes and receivers but only one is used regularly. The unused dish will be used for the downlink. That signal will go through a fiber optic link from the Communications building to ours.

The whole campus was linked with fibre only a couple of years ago. While the contractors were on the job, they had a couple extra sets pulled up to the booth just for such an occasion.

I'm not 100% sure what type of equipment the fiber link will be carried on. The fiber has already been pulled but the laser/receiver set still has to be installed. Right now, it's just bare, unterminated fiber.

Right now, I'm working on the booth end of the project.

The Smart Mod II still works but the sound it produces just isn't very good. There are also some other inconsistencies in the sound system. I was hoping that getting a film processor that can handle everything would give multiple benefits.

1) Give us good sound for the satellite broadcasts.

2) Give us upgraded sound for the movies.

3) Replace the Smart Mod II. It was only meant to be an inexpensive, temporary solution to get us going. Later on, we were supposed to get a better sound processor once the film program was established. Well, that unit has been "temporary" for nearly ten years. Its about time. Don't you think?

4) Getting a new processor will give us a good upgrade path to Dolby Digital. Once the processor is purchased, it will only be a few thousand for a penthouse reader.

5) Replacing the processor will help us solve some of the other inconsistencies in the sound system. We can start with a clean slate, so to speak.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-11-2007, 10:31 PM:

I agree with Randy's theory...this is a good excuse to upgrade to a 650!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-11-2007, 10:50 PM:

Randy,

Based on your description...the Dolby CP650 is the best choice. It is a good sounding unit that deals with both film and digital audio. Note, there are different configurations based on the suffix of the processor name. The straight CP650 is actually pretty well equipped in that it has 4 AES pair inputs (8-channels) and can deal with AC-3 from DVDs and other consumer sources as well as 6-8 channel PCM sources (and Dolby Digital from film). This unit also has Auto-EX too incase anyone mixes in that format.

Note, the CP650D configuration will do Dolby Digital BUT it won't do the the digital audio inputs (or EX). A CP650D can be upgraded to a CP650 at any time. The CP650D DOES have an unbalanced 6-channel analog input with the traditional 25-pin Dsub to work with such devices as DTS or even a DVD player with 6-channel analog outputs (with a suitable cable).

The other configurations are the CP650SR (analog only) and CP650XO (identical to the CP650 but adds internal crossovers to feed the amplifiers directly).

There is also an option board for the CP650D to add digital outputs (Cat 778) BUT this is to the exclusion that there will be NO analog outputs what so ever! The Cat778, adds the same functionality as a normal CP650 otherwise.

Steve

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-12-2007, 12:09 AM:

I was looking at the CP650XO.

It'll do the job we ask. It'll be a significant upgrade for our everyday cinema sound. Plus, it will give us a future upgrade path to Dolby Digital just by adding the Cat. 702 reader. From what I read, the reader is only a few thousand more. Once the CP650 is in and running, I'm sure we can raise the money for the upgrade.

I understand that the standard CP650 can be upgraded to the XO simply by adding a card. Right? We could save a few bucks there until it is time to upgrade amplifiers and speakers. Right?

Is it worth it to buy the calibration microphone from Dolby or can you use any standard calibrated microphone? The automatic B-Chain alignment would be a useful feature in our environment.

I read that the Mfg. price on the CP650 is right around $13,500.
The boss is cringing at that price tag. [Eek!]

Whats' the going street price right now?

Except for the easy upgrade to Dolby Digital, would the UltraStereo unit be a more economical choice?

I really think the 650 is the way to go but I'm afraid the budget won't be able to swing $13K.

And... If, by some miracle, we COULD get this to go through our budget, my boss would earn the right to trumpet to the heavens about the fact that we now have the most super duper, state of the art, DIGITAL sound system money can buy. Right! [Big Grin]

Bosses like to brag, doncha' know! [thumbsup]

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 07-12-2007, 01:05 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The straight CP650 is actually pretty well equipped in that it has 4 AES pair inputs (8-channels)

Steve, I'm not sure if this is correct. I believe that a standard CP650 (EX), will only process AC3 / PCM (SPDIF). AES decoding isn't available without the Cat. 778 card (or so I gather from the manual).

I could be completely wrong. I had a problem when I tried to input an AES signal from a QuVis into a CP650, but that is the only time I've tried to utilize this function. We usually used a DMA-8 instead.

If cost is an issue, the USL JSD-80 is probably the best deal cost-wise. It will process film formats, has 6 channel analog inputs, and has 8X AES as well as SPDIF inputs.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-12-2007, 01:17 AM:

quote: Randy Stankey
The boss is cringing at that price tag. Whats' the going street price right now?

I was quoted $9280.50 for the CP650 and 8452.50 for the CP650D last October from UCS(Universal Cinema Services) http://www.universalcinema.com/contact/.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-12-2007, 01:50 AM:

Steve is right as usual about the 650 but the JSD 80D will also do the basic job of 8 channel AES/EBU inputs and also consumer 5.1.

The Dolby 650 can be had for far less than $13,000.

Call me, I'll make you such a deal on either a 650 or JSD 80.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-12-2007, 06:45 AM:

The CP650 has Dolby Digital (film) capability that the JSD80 does not nor will unless you can also scarf up a DA20.

Tristan, when working with a CP650's Option I/O port, one needs to know exactly which cards are installed because the pinout changes based on that card. The DMA8 (Plus), while adding some extra digital inputs only really brings Dolby-E to the table for the CP650 (or JSD80) which is really rather limited for typical cinemas...I seem to enounter it quite a bit though (it is used extensively in Broadcast).

As for why I would favor the CP650 over the JSD80...the Dolby Digital requirement you listed tops the list...but also the noise factor, the CP650 is notably quieter, Dolby-SR decoding is significantly better...in fact, it is the best I've heard of the digital versions and is right up there with the Cat 280/300 and CM353 from Pana.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with the internal crossovers...I would do that externally since I feel you can do so much better externally and not put all of your eggs in one basket. You can upgrade the CP650 to that but it isn't their most cost effective upgrade since you would be removing a card you paid for to install another card. In the CP650 there are two daughter boards available...one for Dolby Digital and one to work with the Option I/O port. The Option I/O one can either be the standard one (gets you EX, AC3 and AES) the XO version or the Studio version (Cat 778) which is digital only outputs.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-12-2007, 10:49 AM:

Pricing: far less than 10K.

BTW: We are never out of CP-650/CP-650D. They are stocked in quantity here in Louisville. Louis

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 07-12-2007, 01:18 PM:

i would go with the dolby 650 but if price is a problem you can go with the JSD 80D for about 3,245.00. That was the last price quote i got when i was looking into upgrading.

so you have to think about the long haul. But these days I think electronics are disposable. I bet that 650 will be obsolete in 8 to 10 years, and a new processor will be out for 30,000.00. And the JSD80 will be as well, and then the new models will be obsolete and so on and so on..

Mike

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-12-2007, 01:47 PM:

What type of video projector will you be using and do you have a video processor or scaler? Most video projectors introduce a delay of about one frame, which is fine for most theatres, but if your video processor/scaler and/or projector delays the picture by more than that, you will need to delay the sound from the satellite feed by a corresponding amount (in either the analog or digital domain). I know that this is an issue with the full-size DLP units (not that you probably have one of these, though...).

The DMA8 can delay its digital input by a configurable amount. Not sure on the CP650 or Ultra-Stereo units, though an analog delay unit is always an option.

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 07-12-2007, 01:58 PM:

The JSD80 offers a delay that is up to greater the 80 ms i think at least this is what I was told and is needed for most DLP projectors. I think i may have seen that in the manual.

Mike

Posted by David Graham Rose (Member # 1450) on 07-12-2007, 03:25 PM:

Greetings

I reckon you will need a DMA8 as the audio from a sat will reach you as a consumer format. The DMA 8 will do the necessary D to A and from here you will be able to send it to a processor on th6 channel input.

David

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-12-2007, 04:51 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
What type of video projector will you be using and do you have a video processor or scaler? Most video projectors introduce a delay of about one frame, which is fine for most theatres, but if your video processor/scaler and/or projector delays the picture by more than that, you will need to delay the sound from the satellite feed by a corresponding amount (in either the analog or digital domain). I know that this is an issue with the full-size DLP units (not that you probably have one of these, though...).

We send the digital cinema sound into input 1 on a DMA8 plus, SP/dif digital from the DVD player into input 3, and I have used the digital optical output from my laptop into input 4.

Two channel analogue audio from the DVD player, DVCam recorder, and any other A/V equipment which may be brought in goes to a composite video/audio switcher, then to a two output distribution unit. One outpot goes to a little, about five inch, flat screen monitor on top of the sound rack, and the other output through a box of tricks which can do various things, but is only used to digitally delay the analogue audio signals to match the projector; the delay is three frames. This then goes into the CP-65 via the mag/aux input.

quote: Randy Stankey
From the Metropolitain Opera for starters.

I am interested in hearing about people doing this sort of thing. As far as I am concerned, digital has little advantage over film at present, and no way does it justify the cost of installing it for showing 'normal' films, which could just as well be run on film.

Obviously, showing this sort of thing is making use of the digital equipment to do something which you simply couldn't do with film, and is therefore a more interesting use of the digital equipment.

One of the projectionists who has just left the Clocktower also projects at a cinema in Brighton, which is on the south coast, about 50 miles south of London. He says they took the Met. opera shows there, and they did quite well. I don't know in what format the signals were delivered.

Showing live events on cinema screens largely died out long ago. Sporting events were the most common, of which boxing matches probably lasted until about the early '70s. I think they were shown only in black and white, I don't know whether in 405, 525 or 625 lines, though 405 would be unlikely towards the end. I had no interest in boxing, so I never saw one of these presentations, though I do remember seeing posters for them at several London cinemas, e.g. the Astoria, Old Kent Road.

Growing numbers of people having televisions at home, including colour, and presumably the cost and work involved in hireing in an Eidophor and operator, and getting it installed, and a feed hooked up to it, eventually killed off these shows. The Odeon Leicester Square was the only cinema to have an Eidophor permanently installed.

Thngs have changed somewhat today; events are now shown in high definition, so the picture quality will be better. A fair number of cinemas now have digital projectors installed, and so can show this sort of thing without having to bring in special equipment for it.

Last year the Odeon Leicester Square showed several matches from the football World Cup, and I'm told these also did quite well.

I'm a bit doubtful about showing something like the Met. Opera live; it's ok where you are, and you could probably get away with showing an early performance in London, but if you were to show it in Tokyo or Beijing for example, people would have to go out in the middle of the night to see it. They might do this once, but I think the novelty would soon wear off. It's somewhat different for a sporting event, but for 'art' I think it might be better to show a recording a few hours later, at a sensible time of day.

If anybody else is showing this sort of thing, I'd be interested to hear how you get on with it.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-12-2007, 05:02 PM:

Starting with firmware 2.3.x.x, the CP650 has global audio delay. The JSD80 added it as well. You would only need the DMA-8 if you are going to need Dolby-E capability with either processor. If you just need AES, then both can do this without external help. If AC-3 support (consumer) is needed, then you can use the USL box for this (the model escapes me) or just the the CP650.

I still say the CP650 is your best bet and probably will suffice for better than 10-years.

Steve

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 07-12-2007, 06:19 PM:

If You don't want to spend money use some "home theater" dolby digital-prologic/dts receiver (they're very cheap today) and put digital audio from sattelitre receiver to get decoded AC3 5.1 ch audio and take it from line out and go with it to MOD III external inputs....simple and cheap....just pay attention to external outputs of receiver, that doesn't have all!

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-13-2007, 11:45 AM:

Since I beleive the theatre has a Peavey Media Matrix house system that the cinema system feeds into one needs only the DA converter

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-13-2007, 01:39 PM:

If it is a Media Matrix...then just get a digital I/O module (CABs I believe).

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 07-13-2007, 08:56 PM:

If the feed is going to be a consumer format for audio, I just un installed our Lexicon DC-2. It has the latest firmware as of 2001 ( i think 2.9) but since there is a firmware version 4.0 that you can get. It can decode Dolby 5.1, DTS and has its own digital version called logic 7 as well as THX surround. It will do Pro logic as well and has 8 channels out that are unbalanced. It is a pre-amp so it will have to be ran to amplifiers. We used it for DVD's. We are looking to upgrade but have no money as of now. Over all the unit is very good, however you a very limited for B chain... contact me we can work out a deal if you want.

Mike

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-13-2007, 09:38 PM:

As noted above, you will need a delay system to allow sync with the picture. "Home" units don't have this.

Still the best deal is the CP-650. Louis

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-14-2007, 02:55 AM:

So what format is the sound, and the picture for that matter, actually going to be delivered in? unless I've missed something we still don't know. Could be just about anything, PCM, Dolby Digital, Dolby E, multi-channel, 2 channel matrixed. Has the satellite system actually been installed yet? What comes out of the box at the end of it? It's quite possible that the signal gets converted to a different form, e.g. decoded to 6 channel analogue, before you even get your hands on it, or it could be AES digital, either 75 Ohm BNC or 110 Ohm XLR versions, SP/dif, who knows?

For opera you obviously want the best possible sound quality, so I wouldn't skimp on it.

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 07-14-2007, 11:25 PM:

the lexicon DC-2 has a delay well over 80 ms. I never had to delay anything when using it with DVDs and a digital projector in our theater. However the feature is built in the menu options. it is call A/V sync delay. The lexicon is considered a high end consumer home processor/pre/amp.

Mike