Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital Cinema In UK

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Posted by Neil Robinson (Member # 2459) on 04-06-2007, 03:55 PM:

The Empire Cinema High Wycombe and Odeon Cinema Hatfield are running several films on Digital Projection has anyone in the UK visited either of these sites and watched any of the films, I would be interested in what they thought, as these two sites are being used as test beds for Digital for these companies

Thanks

Neil

Posted by Paul Carey (Member # 2241) on 04-06-2007, 06:09 PM:

Neil, the UK Film Council has nearly completed is run out of the Digital Screen Network. Here is a list of the current sites - UK Film Council DSN List of Sites

Why not try and find your nearest site and give them a ring to see if you can get a look at some digital product on screen. Most of the DSN sites will have some trailers on the server.

Hope this helps,

Paul

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-06-2007, 07:41 PM:

Six screens in five cinemas in the North East area; Fifty eight (I think at a quick count) screens in Greater London, plus two more in Croydon, which may, or may not, be part of London. It's been a London Borough since 1964, most of it has London telephone numbers, but doesn't have a London post code, for example.

I think there are two hundred and something screens in total, so London gets about 25% of them. How exactly does this over-representation of cinemas in the London area help to increase accessibility to 'specialist' film outside London?

We've only run one film on it so far, three shows, with a gap of about six or seven weeks before the next one which opens on the 20th of this month so it's still very early days for us. I've seen a few other things on it, mainly trailers, and I would say that it looks considerably better than the old 1.3k machines. Does it look better than film? I can't really say, Some film looks much better than other, and the same goes for digital. I remember thinking that one of the trailers I saw didn't look as good as the film versio that I'd seen, but 'Wizard of Oz' looked very good. I ran a couple of clips of hi-def video through it from my laptop, and I was surprised at how good that looked. Also tried a couple of DVDs; they didn't look so good, but still much better than they looked on the old video projector. A rather expensive way to project DVDs though.

Posted by Justin Gorka (Member # 3727) on 04-06-2007, 07:54 PM:

Any news on getting rid of QuVISS?

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-06-2007, 07:59 PM:

We didn't get it; do you mean they're replacing it in installations which did? What's wrong with it; I've never seen one?

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 04-07-2007, 06:55 AM:

All the new Arts Aliance (UKFC) sites are getting Doremi servers, at the training day I went to they said they were removing the QuVISS servers.

I don't know about timescales though.

Posted by Justin Gorka (Member # 3727) on 04-07-2007, 08:46 AM:

QuVISS has a habit of freezing on start-up requiring a long (10-15min) wait before re-booting it. It is also a pain to program.
We've had numerous films on the DLP now. he best looking have been Cars and 300(currectly playing. I was not impressed with Yellow Brick Road. With that one there was even a digital hair in the gate during the credits!
We have shown some alternative content including 2 episodes of the Last series of Doctor Who on DVD for a charity event.
I was pretty (and the punters more so) with the result. While not film quality the results were pretty impressive and the sound excellent.
I still think that 2k is not enough. Pixiltion still seems to show through (evident in Becoming Jane recently) on dark or green out of focus backgroungs. This maybe the way the films are transfered to the media, but I am still not convinced.

Posted by Amanda Mundin (Member # 3386) on 04-10-2007, 01:42 PM:

Out of interest has anyone tried projecting Blu-Ray dvd through one of the DSN projectors?

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-10-2007, 02:43 PM:

quote: Amanda Mundin
Out of interest has anyone tried projecting Blu-Ray dvd through one of the DSN projectors?

Id be curious to know this as well. How does it stack up against the media coming off the servers.

HD DVD or BD are encrypted via its digital HDMI outputs. Component analog is open but I do not think these projectors offer a analog input, do they?

There are a few companies offering HD SDI mods for these players. This would bypass the encryption and allow you to maintain a digital signal path to the projector.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-10-2007, 03:13 PM:

The projectors do not have an analogue input; the Christie interface box (I can never remember the name) does, in composite, Y/C, Y,Pr,Pb or RGB form, with various sync options, but HD players will normally only output at SD resolution on the analogue outputs when playing protected content.

The Christie box has a DVI input, which could be connected to DVD or HDMI HD outputs, but the unit does not support HDCP, and therefore will not display protected HD content; at least that's what the manual says. I don't actually have any suitable content to try it with.

The two unprotected clips that I tried playing from my laptop looked pretty good, not equal to propper digital cinema content, but considerably better than normal video.

Posted by John Caswell (Member # 4024) on 04-10-2007, 03:25 PM:

Hi Stephen, completely right. We've got a HDCP encrypted DVD player, which has HDMI out and won't play via this to DVI. Everything looks decent enough via RGB though. Hoping there'll be some form of upgrade soon to enable the Christies to decrypt HDCP.

Optional HDSDI inputs for the CineIPM are apparently about £1,100 but Arts Alliance can supply and fit their own version for around £350.

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 04-10-2007, 03:26 PM:

http://www.christiedigital.co.uk/products/cineIPM2K/cineIPM2Koverview.asp

Is the gadget you're referring to.

As it comes from AA there's no HD / HD-SDI input but you can pay for optional modules to enable that feature, about £2000 off the top of my head [Eek!]

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-10-2007, 03:49 PM:

quote: John Caswell
Hi Stephen, completely right. We've got a HDCP encrypted DVD player, which has HDMI out and won't play via this to DVI. Everything looks decent enough via RGB though.

I assume that you're talking about analogue RGB; can your player output HD in that form from protected content? They are supposed to downsample to SD for any non-protected output. Then again, DVD players aren't supposed to play discs from different regions, but some will, so maybe not all HD players do what they are supposed to.

The video switcher and cabling at the Clocktower are all composite, so that's how video gets shown at the moment; I hope that changes soon.

The Christie Cine-IPM 2K is a very useful bit of kit; there's not much that it can't handle. I doubt that it's cheap though.

Posted by John Caswell (Member # 4024) on 04-10-2007, 04:09 PM:

I think you're right about the downsampling, think our player may do that. Still happy with the quality at the moment, but would be ideal to keep an all-digital signal.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-10-2007, 05:09 PM:

It's easy to tell if it's downsampling, look at the horizontal frequency distlayed on the front of the Cine-IPM 2K, if it's 15.625 kHz. (15.73425 kHz. for NTSC) or something very close then it's standard definition video. If it's HD then you should be seeing a much higher figure, exactly what will depend on what format it's in. The vertical frequency will also depend on whether t's an interlaced or progressive signal.

Posted by John Caswell (Member # 4024) on 04-10-2007, 05:23 PM:

You're right Stephen. Frequency's pretty much spot on (15.63 off the top of my head). [Smile]

Oh well, fingers crossed Christie / Arts Alliance will sort out the whole HDCP thingamajig.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-11-2007, 09:22 AM:

Here in the states at least both BD and HD DVD only output 1080i on the component output, no 1080P.
I thought most cinema digital projectors had HD SDI inputs. Im surprized to hear some do not.

What is the standard connector between the server and projector ?

Posted by Paul Carey (Member # 2241) on 04-12-2007, 05:38 AM:

The issue isn't really with the Cine-IPM doing HDCP or not, the problem lies with the projector hardware. The HDCP protection has to go as far back as the projector itself. So HDCP hardware would have to be done by the CP2000 down to the Cine-IPM.

If this wasn't the case then you could start copying HD-DVD's by connecting the HDMI ports up to the Cine-IPM and then copying the output to where ever you liked. This then defeats the whole point of the copyright protection. It's almost like the current CineLink II method of constant handshaking between the projector and server while playback of digital content is happening.

It's an interesting one, which we'll have to wait and see if Christie address it.

Paul

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-12-2007, 06:44 AM:

Presumably this would just be a matter of software upgrades to projector and Cine-IPM 2k, so it could be done. Again presumably, it would need licence fees paying to whoever owns HDCP, and given that cinemas are generally about showing films to large audiences those fees would probably me much higher than for home equipment. Cinemas don't generally show films in this format, so maybe the cost wasn't thought worth it.

Of course, anybody would have the option to release a HD disc without HDCP if they wanted it to be shown in cinemas, unlikely for feature films, but possible for other types of material.

If anybody just wants to try it out to see what it looks like, making a high definition DVD isn't difficult, and it doesn't even have to be on HDDVD or Blu-ray media, the same format and file structure can be written to a normal DVD-R disc, though the running time is obviously rather limited, but this wouldn't matter just for a test. You would obviously need either a HD player, or a computer with a normal DVD ROM drive and suitable software to decode the HD format installed, but that ought to work, and it would not have HDCP, so a DSN installation should be able to show it. Maybe I'll try putting my BBC clips, which are Quicktime movies, through Compressor and DVD studio, at whatever the typical bitrates are for a HD disc, and try it. I'd have to play it on a computer as I don't have a HD player. I'm not actually what format HD discs are in, is it H264? I don't have my DVD Studio and Compressor books with me at the moment.

If this is possible in future, what would happen if a cinema booked an old film on 35mm, but found the print was in poor condition when it arrived, and simply went out and bought a HD disc and ran that instead? I have heard of cinemas which have booked a 35mm print from a legitimate source, but just left it in the cans, and borrowed a better print from somewhere else (a collector?) and run that instead, but in that case it's unlikely that anybody would find out. A DVD would not normally be licenced for public exhibition, but if you had paid the fee for such exhibition by booking the 35mm print, where would you stand?

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 04-12-2007, 08:32 AM:

We haven't got a DCI-compliant projector - just a Panasonic 10000 lumen HD projector (1920x1080) with DVI input with HDCP. I've tried Blu-Ray through the projector and it is every bit as good as I expected. Sharp vivid pictures and better than film sound. We did a comparison after a film screening of "Babel". The general opinion was that the picture was clearer, the subtitles easier to read, the sound fantastic. The only slightly negative comment was that the Blu-Ray's colours were not as rich as the film.

I see this as a lower cost alternative to DCI, and a much better solution than the current 1280 x 720 resolution e-cinema being used in Australia. Just a pity that Blu-Ray availability is still limited.

Further to Stephen's comment about using DVD (or HD disc), we've shown off DVD when a 35mm print was unavailable, by arrangement with the distributor (of both the film and DVD). Upscaled DVD, when done properly can come close to HD.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-17-2007, 02:04 PM:

quote: Peter Castle
Further to Stephen's comment about using DVD (or HD disc), we've shown off DVD when a 35mm print was unavailable, by arrangement with the distributor (of both the film and DVD). Upscaled DVD, when done properly can come close to HD.

I think there may well be some additional complications, not technical ones, with doing that here in the UK. The DVDs are intended mainly for home use, though some film societies etc. do obtain a licence to show them to a limited audience, and a great many more hire them from Blockbuster and show them to such groups without any such licence. The certification of films for home and theatrical screening are quite separate in this country, a film could get a different certificate for each, possibly with small changes to the content, I don't think the '12a' theatrical certificate exists for home release, and DVDs do not normally have the BBFC certificate on screen before the start of the film, which theatrical prints do. These are not issues which couldn't be resolved, but I think they may need to be before the public theatrical screening of DVDs would be generally allowed here.

Posted by Neil Robinson (Member # 2459) on 04-18-2007, 03:34 PM:

I have just seen the new film Inland Empire distributed in the UK by Optimum Releasing at the Tyneside Cinema at their temporary home in the old town hall Gateshead, the film was shown on their newly aquired Digital Projector having worked in cinema projection for over 20 years there are some who will no doubt say I simply don't want change but I think it will be a sad day for Cinema if Digital Replaces 35m/m completly, it may be ok for Art House product that is on limited release to be shown in Digital format but mainstream no, what I saw did not look anything like the quality of film it looked similar to an LCD or Plazma TV shown on a cinema screen,does anyone else agree or am I in a minority

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-18-2007, 04:45 PM:

We open this film, in digital, on Friday; I haven't seen it, so I can't comment on how it looks, but as I understand it, this was shot on some sort of digital video format, not on film, nor on a digital cinema format. That being the case, I don't think you can really use it to judge the quality of a digital projection system. I'm running 'Becoming Jane' on digital tomorrow, but the only film I've actually seen on our system so far is 'Wizard of Oz', and that's not exactly typical either.

[ 04-20-2007, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Furley ]

Posted by Andy Muirhead (Member # 712) on 04-18-2007, 07:17 PM:

Neil, Inland Empire is terrible on the DLP's. As Stephen said, it was shot on DV and looks appalling. I'm pretty embarrassed to run this on our Christie, actually ran SD DVD through the machine that looked better.

I too was sceptical before getting our DLP, but was simply blown away by the picture. Try and check out another 'film' running on the machines before writing it off!

If you are ever up my way I'd be happy to arrange a demo!

Posted by Caleb Johnstone-Cowan (Member # 3710) on 04-18-2007, 10:19 PM:

I wouldn't judge digital projection on the basis of 'Inland Empire'. Go along for a CGI kids film or something similar.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-20-2007, 04:31 AM:

It arrived yesterday morning, so I ran a few minutes of it last night between films to see how it looked; If you'll pardon the language, it looked bloody awful. There is no technical reason for a film shot on DV to look like that, and some scenes look much better than others, so the only reasonable explanation is that this was how he wanted his film to look, in which case you can't really argue with it. I still don't know what it is about; is it supposed to look like a home movie, or something?

It was far worse than typical DVD, even a letterboxed non-anamorphic widescreen one on a composite feed (I've now got the new component cables ready, and they should be going in tomorrow). It must be getting on for ten years ago now that I did some projection for the Jewish Film Festival, in North London. Some of the material was on VHS, shown on an early, and very large and heavy, DLP video projector. It didn't look great, but was better than I expected, and better than the few minutes of this thing that I saw yesterday looked.

quote: Alan Gouger
I thought most cinema digital projectors had HD SDI inputs. Im surprized to hear some do not.

As far as I am aware, this is the case. Unless I have missed a post, I don't think anybody said otherwise. Did you think this because of the mention of a SDI input module for the Cine IPM 2k? If so, I believe that the projectors only handle certain standards, so you would need to go though the Cine IPM 2k for various scaling and conversion functions on other signals, e.g. standard definition video, even if they were on SDI; can anybody confirm this? The Cine IPM also provides a switching function between the various inputs of course. The SDI modules have two inputs, so if you installed two of them you could switch between four SDI inputs, plus the four built-in inputs which between them can handle DVI, VGA (via the DVD-I connector with an adapter or the 5xBNC input with a suitable cable), RGBs, RGsB, RGBHV, Y,Pr,Pb, Y/C S-video and composite, in just about any video system in use anywhere in the world. Later versions can also take a second composite or Y/C input (but not both together) via the RGB/Y,Pr,Pb input if that is not otherwise in use. All controlable from the unit's remote control, cabled or IR, RS-232, RS-422 and Ethernet.

There are several different optional modules available, but I can't remember what the others were for.

Output is via 2 DVI-D connections, 8 bit using one of them, which can be mirrored onto the other e.g. for a monitor if required, or 10 bit using both.

It really is a very versatile unit. I wouldn't even want to think about what it costs. The manual which came with our one seems to be for a slightly different, earlier version. I found one available to download which does seem to match our hardware.

The manual does seem rather daunting at first, but in most cases it seems to detect the correct signal type automatically. It is possible to adjust just about anything manually if needed though.

I'd like to have seen a bit more information on the front panel display; it doesn't even tell you which input is active, you get horizontal and vertical sync frequencies, and whether the on-screen display is on or off, and that's about it. Also, I still haven't managed to turn the on-screen display off; I can press the appropriate buttons, and it still shows that it is on. Will try to find time to have another play tomorrow.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 04-20-2007, 05:18 PM:

FWIW I read before that Inland Empire started off as a project for Mr. Lynch's website but then he decided to go for theatrical release. Perhaps he must have shot quite a bit of material by that point, so stuck with the DV format.