Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Show East Digital Presentation of Happy Feet very unsharp and out of focus

This is topic Show East Digital Presentation of Happy Feet very unsharp and out of focus in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000100

Posted by Jason Setzer (Member # 3949) on 10-28-2006, 10:26 PM:

The Sony 4K digital showing of Happy Feet at the AMC Pleasure Island was very out of focus and unsharp. To make matters worse they were having HUGE masking issues throughout the 20 minute presentation.After the presentation I went into the booth only to hear one of the Sony Exec's screaming at the Sony Technician. They told me the presentaion was done on a beta tape and thats what cause the issues. The colors were extremely vivid thought I will give them that.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-28-2006, 11:55 PM:

And low and behold they were not..... running it at 4K! Few seem to know that it has not been demonstrated to a large show type crowd at 4K resolution yet! Several Sony prople admitted this to me on the trade show floor! The tech should be questioning himself why he's even working for Sony at this point in time! I wish Sony would have stuck to the Walkman and the Trinitron... two things they were really good at making....

Mark

Posted by Jason Setzer (Member # 3949) on 10-29-2006, 12:10 AM:

Mark,

Doesn't this seem absolutely ridiculous to you that they would try to pull some sh-t like this out with all the movers and shakers being there.

The only part of the presentation that looked good was the 65mm . As far as the masking if they couldn't have perfected before the demo they could have atleast taped the port window to get by

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-29-2006, 07:37 AM:

Sony had problems demonstrating SDDS at Showest and ran the audio off a tape after putting people in buses and driving them half way across Las Vegas.

They were not ready but seemed to want to buy time so others would not get too far ahead. They seem to be doing the same this time.

They do have their challenge ahead.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-29-2006, 08:47 AM:

Jason, I'm not argueing in their favor... its absolutely obvious they blew it again.

Aam,

Aside from running it off tape or hard drive or what ever they also ran it at what seemed like 110db dialog level... I never knew a Syufy sound system could be so painful!

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-29-2006, 10:14 AM:

I didn't witness the trainwreck, but it is exactly as I would have expected.

Same company, same mode of operation. After SDDS I would have thought they would have run for cover. Louis

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 10-29-2006, 11:05 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I never knew a Syufy sound system could be so painful

What theater were you at? Syufy has never had theaters in Florida.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 10-29-2006, 11:21 AM:

The sdds trainwreck was in Vegas. Louis

Posted by Richard May (Member # 2627) on 10-29-2006, 11:45 AM:

What a shame. I feel so bad for them. [Wink]

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 10-29-2006, 03:44 PM:

Maybe I just notice the animateds, but why is it that they do so many high-profile demos with content that was totally born in the computer, rather than real-life stuff that would give you a reference for comparison?

Seems that if they wanted true credibility, there'd be none of that. Still, they show a cartoon and everyone trips over themselves, praising the 'realism' of digital.

I don't get it.

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 10-29-2006, 03:48 PM:

Beware Sony.

Remember SDDS. Remember DCP's. Remember Betamax, for heaven's sake.

Years ago, when these guys got into the film sound business, I warned everyone on this very forum that Sony was notorious for pulling support on their broadcast equipment at a moments notice -- that they expect their customers to drop everything and buy the flavor of the week -- and that the film business would be no different with them. True to form, they have stuck everyone with useless motion picture equipment and, therefore, I am very wary of their foray into Digital Cinema.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 10-29-2006, 05:51 PM:

With all of the Sony SXRD HD television ads on TV today, I can't help but think that they're more concerned with the home entertainment market. Since Best Buy won't sell a $100,000 television, Sony is trying to shove their new technology down exhibitors' throats to make back their R&D money.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-29-2006, 05:59 PM:

quote: Adam Martin
Sony is trying to shove their new technology down exhibitors' throats to make back their R&D money

I bet Sony has put FAR more $$ into R&D for the 4K professional system than they have for the home entertainment version. When you consider not just the projector but the server etc. required to make the projector "go", the 4K theatrical *system* is way more advanced. They'd have to sell a LOT of projectors to ever make their money back. Now if they could actually get some 4K SXRD systems into commercial theaters and if there's some 4K content for it (and I mean more than just animated features), and if it performs spectacularly compared to 2K, that could be good PR for consumer SXRD and move more TVs, thus paying for the R&D. Seems like a lot of ifs though at this point.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-29-2006, 08:05 PM:

quote: David Stambaugh
When you consider not just the projector but the server etc. required to make the projector "go", the 4K theatrical *system* is way more advanced.

Actually DoRemi has the 4K server... Sony doesn't, they just have the projector. Sony still needs to demo it at 4K to a big group. They will never sell enough to make their $$ back. T.I still has not shown a profit on the D-Cinema stuff. The consumer stuff helps keep it afloat.

quote: David Stambaugh
Now if they could actually get some 4K SXRD systems into commercial theaters

AMC is running some but at 2K.

Mark

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 10-29-2006, 08:25 PM:

I stand enlightened. I wonder if any Sony money went into the development of Doremi's 4K-capable server.

Posted by Christopher Seo (Member # 7) on 10-30-2006, 12:13 AM:

I have seen the Sony 4K demonstrated at 4K, side by side with a Christie 2K, and I do have to say I like the 4K. The comparison was not perfect; there were a couple issues matching the 4K and 2K images, namely a slight difference in tint, plus some minor but odd artifacts present in a 4K rendering of "Cars" but not present in the (native, I think) 2K version. Not only are the pixels smaller at 4K, but the SXRD pixels do not have the hard edge of DLP pixels (I think the pixels were described as having a "Gaussian" edge), which results in a much less grid-like appearance even right up at the screen.

I have also personally had very pleasing results even running Blu-Ray at 1080i component into a Sony 4K. The material was the (soon-to-be-released, I think) colorized version of the 1935 movie "She", a Merian C. Cooper production originally supposed to be filmed in three-strip Technicolor but changed to B&W in the face of budget cuts.

Posted by Paul Konen (Member # 41) on 12-20-2006, 08:31 PM:

Link

Reuters Summit-Regal says Sony's 4K projector not ready

(For other news from the Reuters Media Summit, click on Long Link

NEW YORK, Nov 29 (Reuters) - A super high-definition projector being aggressively marketed by Sony Corp. <6758.T> is not yet reliable enough to be installed in movie theaters, said the chief executive of the largest U.S. cinema chain on Wednesday.

Regal Entertainment Group <RGC.N> Chief Executive Michael Campbell told the Reuters Media Summit in New York that he would not consider installing the Sony projector on his chain's 6,400 screens until it had been tested more thoroughly.

Sony said last month that its 4K digital projection system was market ready after tests conducted by an entertainment advisory board, and the company was ready to cut deals to install the systems in theaters as part of an industry-wide transition to digital projection.

The projector boasts 4,096 horizontal pixels, compared with 2,038 horizontal pixels for rival 2K projectors made by Barco Digital Cinema, Christie Digital Systems and others.

"We've seen 4K in some lab conditions, it looks really good," Campbell said. "The problem is, at least currently, it's not reliable. It's being tested."

Regal is a partner in National CineMedia, a joint venture with AMC Theatres and Cinemark that has been tasked with selecting digital technology for all three chains, which have a combined 14,000 screens.

There are about 37,000 U.S. movie theater screens, according to the National Association of Theatre Owners.

Campbell said other disincentives are that the Sony projector is more expensive than the better-tested 2K, and was being rolled out slower than manufacturers had indicated to theater owners.

"I think the (digital projection) roll-out ... initially is going to be almost exclusively 2K, and as the roll-out progresses, as 4K technology becomes more tested, as the price of that technology inevitably comes down... you may see a lot of companies including Regal shift to some 4K units as part of that roll-out process," Campbell said. "I don't think it's ready today."

Campbell said the chain wants to encourage Sony to continue testing and rolling out the technology "but at the end of the day it has to be an affordable technology."

[ 12-21-2006, 03:02 AM: Message edited by: Adam Martin ]

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 12-21-2006, 08:58 PM:

mmm not a mention of sonys expensive operational costs, bulb and lamp hours. [uhoh]

Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 12-22-2006, 09:46 AM:

Or, Sony's propensity to get everyone on board with a certain piece of equipment... and then ABANDON them a few years later, when they decide they want you sign-up for their latest and greatest.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-22-2006, 10:02 AM:

quote: Tim Reed
Sony's propensity to get everyone on board with a certain piece of equipment... and then ABANDON them

Well, yeah.... but that's nothing new. I had just about everything Apple had ever made, up to a couple of GS machines, when they dumped the whole line and decreed we should all run out and buy a Mac.

Posted by Mattias Ohlson (Member # 1662) on 12-22-2006, 10:17 AM:

One positive step with the 18k lumen 4k sxrd being readied is that it uses a single 4kW xenon lamp.
It is quiet clear to me from the comments in the press release that the industry wants 4k and not hdtv(2k).
I hope that the transition to wire grid polarizers will result in boosted performence for sxrd.

Posted by Marin Zorica (Member # 1716) on 12-22-2006, 03:25 PM:

All post on DLP I saw here makes a question to me....Is DLP ready for BIG SCREEN?

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 12-22-2006, 08:01 PM:

What is a "wire grid polarizer" and what might it do to help sxrd performance?

Posted by Mattias Ohlson (Member # 1662) on 12-23-2006, 04:04 AM:

JVC is using new d-ila panels and wire grid polarizers to go from 2500:1 to 15000:1 in contrast ratio.
You can read about the role of wire grid polarizers at the end of this pdf-document.

http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2006/dla-hd1.pdf

Wire grid polarizers could naturally be applied in a sxrd projector as well.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 12-23-2006, 09:18 PM:

Is Sony planning to integrate wire grid polarizers into SXRD imaging devices or are you just speculating that performance could be improved IF they used the technology?

Posted by Mattias Ohlson (Member # 1662) on 12-24-2006, 01:46 AM:

It is pure speculation I am afraid but to me it would make sense to use this technology.

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 12-24-2006, 09:51 PM:

quote: Jack Ondracek
Well, yeah.... but that's nothing new. I had just about everything Apple had ever made, up to a couple of GS machines, when they dumped the whole line and decreed we should all run out and buy a Mac.

The Mac came out in January, 1984 and the last Apple II was not discontinued until November of '93, so it wasn't exactly a sudden discontinuation of the Apple II line. Did you want them to use 6502/65C816 processors and non-bitmapped screens forever?

Besides, while technology does march on, there's a big difference between a $2000 computer and a $200,000 projector. IMHO, the digital projectors should only be made in a modular fashion, so that there's an upgrade path as the technology evolves (and it will). Even aside from resolution, there are going to be improvements in color depth, contrast ratios, speed, etc. The processors should be on removable circuit boards, the imagers should be interchangeable and they all should be capable of downloadable software updates.

Failing that, any theatre owner, chain or independent, is nuts to do anything but lease the projectors, so they can be interchanged as the technology changes. Even then there would still be substantial upgrade/reinstallation costs.

Having said that, I saw The Good Shepherd in digital the other night and it looked damned good, although without having a direct comparison to a 35mm print, hard to tell if it looked as good as film.