Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Alternative contents projection

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Posted by Ferdinando Innocenti (Member # 2477) on 07-05-2004, 08:45 AM:

Hello,
I was wondering if in US and all around the world you have theatres in which video projectors are used for alternative contents.
I search for threads about this issue, I found only something about advertisement and a link to a page that doesn’t exist anymore.

In Europe, some exhibitors are working for projecting alternative contents in “electronic” quality (SD, low contrast and color depth).
It’s a manner, I think, for introducing something “like” digital cinema, that is so expensive now (you know that a new compression standard were adopted some weeks ago – JPEG2000 – so many exhibitors must throw away their servers!).
Besides, this is a way to earn money from theatres in a different manner, showing live concerts (in Europe people went to cinemas to watch and listen to David Bowie!), operas, sports, TV fiction – in advance respect television programming - and so on.

I’d like to know something more, both from a technical and economical point of view, from US.
Thanks
Nando

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-05-2004, 11:02 AM:

Kodak Digital Cinema will provide a pre-show system with alternative content:

http://www.kodak.com/go/dcinema

quote:
...digital system intended for showing independent features, documentaries, local language movies, and other moving image content on independent cinema screens in rural or community locations.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-05-2004, 11:34 AM:

Regal Entertainment Group provides an electronic 20 minute preshow known as The Twenty. It features behind-the-scenes looks at movies and upcoming TV shows, as well as entertaining features such as shorts from the Cartoon Network, and advertisments such as M&M's and Coke. It is shown on a Christie L6 projector, and controlled via the Digital Content Network (DCN).

Ocasionally, Regal CineMedia will use the DCN to broadcast live events, such as concerts and sporting events, at selected theaters around the country.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 07-05-2004, 03:04 PM:

At Muller Family Theaters, we have contracts with Unique Screen Media to run DVD-based LCD projectors at our Lakeville and White Bear Township theaters. The program is ten minutes with full motion ads for local businesses, movietunes music minutes, coke trivia and theater policy spots. It's worked great for local businesses, but as I always mention when this gets brought up, some patrons complain about the slide projectors that might not be totally straight on, or slightly lower volume, thinking that they're watching the film projector [Roll Eyes]

www.uniquescreenmedia.com
www.mullerfamilytheatres.com

Posted by Ferdinando Innocenti (Member # 2477) on 07-06-2004, 05:03 PM:

Well, thanks for the answers!

Ken,
Do you use the L6 on big screen? It’s a 5200 lumens projector, so I think it’s good enough on about 8x5 metres screens, not more. Do you have a satellite dish for live events, or a cable connection? Is the video system (video projectors, computer?, DVD reader, CD reader) connected with cinema automation? Do ads-on-film exist anymore in Regal?

Steve,
Which brand of video projectors do you use? If I understand, people seem to be not so enthusiastic about video projection…

John,
I’m studying Kodak system, it seems to me what I was looking for and what could work so well in Europe. Is the system available in Italy?

I’ve heard about some Tv-movie preview in theatres. Can you confirm that?

Thanks
Nando

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-07-2004, 08:38 AM:

quote: Ferdinando Innocenti
I’m studying Kodak system, it seems to me what I was looking for and what could work so well in Europe. Is the system available in Italy?

Contact Denis Kelly, who is the Operations Manager for Kodak Digital Cinema in Europe:

denis.kelly@kodak.com

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-07-2004, 10:19 AM:

Ferdinando: The L6 is used on every screen. The quality is not that of film, or even DLP, but it is only for the preshow, except those theaters that show concerts, etc... In those cases, I believe medium-sized houses are used. The connection is via satelite. The system, which conists of a PC at each projector, as well as a central rack in the booth, is not connected to the automation. It is somehow connected to the box office system so that it knows to start the preshow in each house 20 minutes before the advertised start time of the film. It is still the operator's responsibility to be there when the preshow is nearing its end and start the film when it is over. The next thing the customer will see on screen when the film presentation starts is trailers. No more rolling stock ads, as that is all contained in the pre-show.

There are still some Regal theaters that do not have the DCN. They still run slide projectors during intermission and rolling stock ads.

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 07-07-2004, 02:06 PM:

We use Toshiba LP380 projectors. Good video quality, and they can create a pretty big image with decent resolution. My only gripe with these projectors is they need quite a bit of ventilation to get good life out of the bulbs. We use about two or three bulbs per projector/per year.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-10-2004, 10:24 AM:

quote:
Regal Entertainment Group provides an electronic 20 minute preshow known as The Twenty. It features behind-the-scenes looks at movies and upcoming TV shows, as well as entertaining features such as shorts from the Cartoon Network, and advertisements such as M&M's and Coke.

So how is this THE TWENTY treated? Are the lights brought down to show level the same as for the feature? Or do they stay at some pre-show level like is done for slide shows? It sounds like the content for THE TWENTY is much more robust than the painfully tacky slide preshows, making it more like the cartoons and short subjects that were commonly shown before features years ago. But back then the pre-feature film material was considered part of the show and started at the published showtime with the lights going completely out (i.e., to "show" level). You got the sense that the actual program had started. It was pre-feature material, not throwaway slide show stuff. The lights were brought to show level for that attraction reel.

I would think you would similarly need to darken the house completely for this kind of substantial content, even though it is on video not film. People will be focusing on it rather than trying to ignore it as they usually are doing during the slide shows; if the lights were up, I would think that would be quite annoying. With the pre-feature "attraction reel," the lights went out and you got the distinct impression that the "show" had started, not that this was fill until the show starts, as is the case with slide material. Is that how THE TWENTY is presented....as part of the main show or as fill?

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-10-2004, 11:05 AM:

Frank,

THE TWENTY is presented the same way the old slides were, with the lights at full. I can see both sides of the issue on this one. I guess they keep the lights up becaue people are still coming in. No one shows up 20 minutes before just to see THE TWENTY.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 07-10-2004, 11:12 AM:

quote: Ken Lackner
No one shows up 20 minutes before just to see THE TWENTY.

Regal's ad checkers are (or were) *required* to show up early enough to see the entire preshow. Just had to point that out. [evil]

Posted by Steve Scott (Member # 630) on 07-11-2004, 11:04 AM:

quote: David Stambaugh was the last to post
No one shows up 20 minutes before just to see THE TWENTY.

But I've heard that the announcer on the program encourages people to show up early! [Wink]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-11-2004, 05:47 PM:

Our preshow music was always a programmed, integral part of the show -- it always ends with a signature tag with the last strains of the music ending exactly at the posted film start time, just being covered by the opening of the WB cartoon audio. Although we only published the start time of the start of the film program, the snipe that promotes the Preshow "concert" says to "Come Early and Hear our Preshow Stereo Rock Concert in Enthraphonic Sound." So the preshow music is used as an audience control device -- enough patrons come prior to show time specifically to hear the music "concert" on the big theatre sound system and that relieves some of the pressure at the BO and concessions of having a big crowd showing up at the same time.

Once a patron complained that we were wasting her time with 15min of "junk," that she didn't come to see (cartoon, attractions, 1 60 sec PSA, and occasionally "Selected Short Subjects"). I mulled over that this patron called our presentation junk, even though we make it a point to tell our patrons that our particular style is to try to recreate a presentation the way theatres used to show films -- a feature or double feature plus all the extras -- a classic film in a classic theatre with classic presentation. If she didn't like that approach, then dagnabit, she should try to go see the classic feature we are playing somewhere else more to her liking. Ha! In fact, I told my associate director to tell her that we don't need her crummy $5 or lousy attitude....in fact, have the staff memorize this woman's face and not to let her into the theatre ever again. JoAnne is much more levelheaded than I, and she told me to calm down, she would handle it (this is why they keep me locked up in the projection booth). She reminded me that a ticket sale is a ticket sale. But the complaint did get us to add the disclaimer that the feature will start approximately 15 minutes after the Cartoon and Attractions to all our promotions.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 07-17-2004, 01:41 PM:

There's not enough places doing what you guys do.
I think there should be a lot more attention to these details. More and more theaters are becoming the same as fast food joints.
You come in, expect to get ripped off, get something you didn't really want, grumble through it, maybe something pleases you, and you go home mildly satisfied but hungry in an hour or so.

Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 07-17-2004, 02:07 PM:

The 2wenty is a joke. The new tagline is "The Twenty: Entertainment Ignited!" It's just a bunch of television commercials and four main blocked-out sections which serve as extended commercials for whatever sponsors are buying time this week.

It plays with full house lights, and the sound is not all that loud, and many of the auditoriums' L6 projectors are just too dim.

"Did you catch all of the Twenty? If not, try to get to the theatre early. The Twenty ... Entertainment Ignited!"

We also do "concert events" which are satellited in, but these are always just advertising DVD releases, and the show is just the DVD content, with an L6, and crappy sound. I think people wanted refunds after the Rush In Rio we did. Many people (most, probably) have home theatre systems that blow away the L6's, even though they're not technically "projected". They don't even do 5.1 like you can get in home systems now.

Last night we broadcast the Tour de France, live, at 4:00am in auditorium #17. Not sure how it went.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-17-2004, 05:25 PM:

quote:
some patrons complain about the slide projectors that might not be totally straight on, or slightly lower volume,

Lower volume?!?! HAH! Every time I've walked in to "The T2we2ne2ty" It's been so dang loud that you can't carry on a conversation in the auditorium!! I guess that's so we don't "disturb" the people trying to watch the big TV commercials.

"Thanks for watching The T2we2ne2ty!"

Like we had a fucking choice. [Mad]

=TMP=

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-18-2004, 05:41 AM:

Just last night a friend of mine, a layman, told me that he saw one of those "The Twenty" programs and as really annoyed by the commercial content and the fact that it was much to dim to see with all the lights on. But then he said he thought something technically went wrong and wanted to know what I thought. I asked him to explain. He said at the end of the video program, the image froze on a screen that said "the feature will start momentarily." He said it stayed there for more than 10 minutes....enough time to get the audience in a nasty mood. They started clapping and cat-calling. I guess when Ken said, It is still the operator's responsibility to be there when the preshow is nearing its end and start the film when it is over, that's what happens when that responsibility is given to the popcorn jockey.

He also said that the audience got even angrier when the trailers started because they had just suffered through all that commercial stuff and they though they were finally going to see the film which they came for and paid for, only to find they had to sit through another 5 trailers before the feature started.

About alternative content. I know this concept has been touted as the great moneymaker that video will allow theatres to recoup because all that off-time can be used to bring in ticket sales with things other than traditional movie fare. Only problem is, what and who is going produce and market this "alternative content"? What kind of excitement will it generate compared to, say, a major movie release? And if it is really quality, audience-drawing programming, the producers will look at the size of the audience that can be reached through the theatrical route (number of screens, potential ticket sales, available time slots, i.e., the theatrical market) and weigh that against other established routes like the cable and satellite pay-per-view markets and they may very well conclude that the theatre potential is almost insignificant compared to the direct-to-home audience. I think the really top quality, one-of-a-kind type of alternative programming that doesn't lend itself to DVD release but is time-dependent (like prize fights and concert "events') will have a much, much wider audience via the well established pay video outlets.

I mention prize fights because up until the mid-80s, we were a venue for quite a number of closed circuit prize fights. It was very lucrative for us, but as soon as pay-per-view and satellite technology because a reality, the producers shut down all the theatres which they usually contracted for close-circuit presentation and move the entire operation to direct pay-per-view. Even though we had sold-out, 2500 seat houses, and they had at least a dozen theatres enlisted to show the fights, all combined they couldn't begin to generate the money the producers could make by going exclusively to pay-per-view. Now picture this same scenario with even smaller, multiplex houses where there is even less potential revenue than a big 2500 seat house. It just doesn't compute.

Then the other "advantage" that the advocates of alternative content put forth is that this content can fill time-slots that are normally considereded off-peak hours in theatre operation, allowing the theatre to generate income at what normally are dead times in sales. HELLLLLLLLOOOOO....the reason there are dead times in the theatres isn't because the pictures aren't hot, it's because people don't go to the theatre at 10am in the morning, no matter WHAT freakin alternative content you are going to stick in there.

Brian said,

quote: Brian Michael Weidemann
Last night we broadcast the Tour de France, live, at 4:00am in auditorium #17. Not sure how it went.

That's a misprint, right, Bri? You meant 4pm, right? not 4am. Who in their right mind thinks that ANYTHING you put in the theatre at 4am is going to generate enough ticket sales to even pay for the electricity let alone make a profit. Alternative content will NOT pull people into the theatre at times when they do not traditionally go to the theatre. There's a reason why patrons go to see everything at prime times and not at off-hours and it has practically nothing to do with content. A Monday morning 11am time-slot isn't going to magically turn into the kind of Box Office you get on a Friday or Saturday evening at 8pm just because you are showing The Tour de France....and in a substandard format at that.

Theatres can't sell seats in off-peak hours to blockbuster titles that have gotten 5 to 10 million dollars worth of publicity and marketing before they open; does anyone really think some marginal programming content with no major prerelease advertising is going to do better? Sorry, boys, "alternative content," as far as I am concerned, is a joke.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-18-2004, 09:19 AM:

Now that they have been showing it for a while, has Regal actually found their pre-show ad program to be profitable? I'd be amazed if it has made money yet or is expected to do so by the end of the year, but I'm quite curious. Not that I've actually seen it yet (I haven't).

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-18-2004, 12:27 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
I guess when Ken said, It is still the operator's responsibility to be there when the preshow is nearing its end and start the film when it is over, that's what happens when that responsibility is given to the popcorn jockey.

Regal does not give this responsibility to the "popcorn jockey." There should be someone in the booth (a manager) at all times.

quote: Frank Angel
He also said that the audience got even angrier when the trailers started because they had just suffered through all that commercial stuff and they though they were finally going to see the film which they came for and paid for, only to find they had to sit through another 5 trailers before the feature started.

The policy trailer, which is the very last thing on The Twenty, clearly states: We hope you have enjoyed this edition of The Twenty. Your Feature presentatioin will begin after the following previews." If the operator is there to start the film as soon as The Twenty is over, the trailers always start at the advertised start time, just like they did when there was no digital preshow. It's even better now because there are no "rolling stock" ads on the film, so the trailer package is much shorter.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-18-2004, 12:54 PM:

Why doesn't the 20 start the film projector itself?

Steve

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-18-2004, 01:22 PM:

Good question. I suppose it could be done if it were wired into the automation. However, Regal does not want any remote starts or timers. They want the operator to be there to start the film to ensure it is in focus, there are no platter issues (brainwrap, etc....), the bulb strikes, etc.... I know some on this forum use timed starts, but I totally agree with Regal on this.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 07-18-2004, 02:50 PM:

Ken, I was paraphrasing what my friend was paraphrasing. Point is, whatever the exact text is, he, and it seems the whole audience, perceived that frozen frame on the screen as a technical mistake. Obviously the "operator" wasn't at that projector at the right time.

Didn't the slides just go on indefinitely? I mean, I don't ever recall there being any kind of definitive "ending" with a wait for a projector start. In fact, many times the damn things would repeat. Their inane attempts at humor were bad enough the first time round, but every time after that was just painful.

Perhaps that's the difference with The Twenty; it has an actual "end" which requires something to happen pretty much on cue. The operator ("Projection Attendant" as UA likes to call them) would need to be at the projector within a minute or so at the end of the video, otherwise it will look like an error.

Perhaps ditching that last frame might alleviate that tension. Just fade it out and not announce anything. When the film starts, it starts. An audience can sit in the theatre with the lights at half and the curtain closed for quite awhile before they start to get nasty. Ooops...sorry, Regal doesn't have any curtains, do they. [Wink]

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 07-18-2004, 03:09 PM:

Boy, do I have some catching up to do!

Last week I checked out the Regal house where I'll be working and saw the "Twenty". You are all absolutely correct in your comments. I didn't find it entertaining at all.

What I found really freaky was, after the local GM sets the show times, if any film projector is started late (apparently even a few seconds) they hear from headquarters almost immediately.

BTW, "The twenty" is now about 30.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 07-18-2004, 04:28 PM:

quote: Ken Lackner
However, Regal does not want any remote starts or timers. They want the operator to be there to start the film to ensure it is in focus, there are no platter issues (brainwrap, etc....), the bulb strikes, etc....

Sure you don't mean that they don't trust their "managers" (who probably make popcorn once in awhile too [Wink]

) to thread the projectors properly?

Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 07-18-2004, 08:09 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
That's a misprint, right, Bri? You meant 4pm, right? not 4am. Who in their right mind thinks that ANYTHING you put in the theatre at 4am is going to generate enough ticket sales to even pay for the electricity let alone make a profit. Alternative content will NOT pull people into the theatre at times when they do not traditionally go to the theatre.

No, it was not a misprint. The Tour de France started, locally, at 4:00am. It was an event. Events have fans. I also believe it was a charity event. Access time was 1:00am until the regular theatre opening at 9:30am.

Posted by Emma Tomiak (Member # 1862) on 07-18-2004, 11:43 PM:

Robert,

You're absolutely right about the 2wenty actually being 30. When we had our digital projectors installed, the preshow ended ("...the feature presentation will begin after the following previews") EXACTLY 20 minutes after it began.

After a while, I noticed that when I went to start a show, the preshow was still in the policy. Later, it was in the ever-present Coke commercial. Then, it was in the other obligatory Coke commercial. Grrrrrrr. I think I'll time it tomorrow to find out how long it is to the second.

You're also correct about the GM getting a call if a show starts late (or early). I think its a little too paranoid of them, but I do understand the importance of starting the show at the correct time. Plus, we have little blinky lights on the DCN projectors. Green light is "5" minutes (7 mintues) to start, and red is "1" minute (2 minutes) to start.

They make it pretty hard to not start a show on time, so unless there is an emergency, there's really no excuse to be late.

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-19-2004, 12:45 AM:

quote: Frank Angel
Didn't the slides just go on indefinitely? I mean, I don't ever recall there being any kind of definitive "ending" with a wait for a projector start. In fact, many times the damn things would repeat. Their inane attempts at humor were bad enough the first time round, but every time after that was just painful.

Totally agree! The slide carousel just went round and round, and some of the slides got quite anoying.

quote: Robert E. Allen
What I found really freaky was, after the local GM sets the show times, if any film projector is started late (apparently even a few seconds) they hear from headquarters almost immediately.

There is an Early Start Report, which lists just that. But I've never heard of anything similar for late starts. I guess they just want to make sure that the entire preshow is played (thus, you cannot start the film early). I've never heard of getting a phone call for early or late starts. The theater is just on the report, which is emailed.

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-19-2004, 01:27 AM:

I haven't seen the twenty myself but I have to say it seems that it would be an improvement. Even if the presentation quality of the twenty is crap who cares, its commercials.

Of course I'm mostly joking with that above comment, in a perfect world we wouldn't play commercials but if they have to be played might as well make them look as good as we can. However, moving them ahead so the scheduled start time is the start of the PREVIEWS, which most people enjoy if there is not an excessive amount, is definately a good thing. People will just need to be 're-trained' to anticipate this new programming method.

Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 07-19-2004, 10:51 AM:

AMC's preshow has an animated frame with music playing at the end. Animated colored "lights" behind theater images of people eating popcorn, sitting down, watching the screen... on a rotating strip of film in front of the background. This cycles until the previews start. Very nice.

I also like that AMC has an "intro" to their previews, instead of like Regal where the first green band SLAMS (*POP*) onto the screen after the preshow. I know, AMC doesn't use green bands, which is points off for them.

Regal should take advice from AMC: instead of the frozen, silent frame. What's especially painful is once that last frame on the T2we2nt2y stops, the jaggies appear BLATANTLY -- like when your computer freezes. TACKY!

From what I gather, do both Regal and AMC use NCN?

=TMP=

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-19-2004, 02:08 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Now that they have been showing it for a while, has Regal actually found their pre-show ad program to be profitable?

http://www.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=rgc&script=410&layout=7&item_id=519516

quote:
During the first quarter of 2004, Regal CineMedia Corporation, a subsidiary of Regal Entertainment Group, continued to expand its existing core advertising and meetings businesses and develop new sources of revenue and cash flow for the Company's stockholders. Kurt Hall, Chief Executive Officer of Regal CineMedia and Co-CEO of Regal Entertainment Group stated, "I am very pleased with CineMedia's business development to date as the revenue and investment returns on the Regal Digital Content Network(SM) ("DCN") continue to track ahead of our original plan. With this growth in the various CineMedia businesses and substantial completion of the DCN under budget, CineMedia is beginning to generate incremental free cash flow for the Company."

Posted by Robert E. Allen (Member # 1351) on 07-19-2004, 03:00 PM:

Scott:

My GM tells me that Regal has found it very profitable to the point they are not concerned about any boxoffice receipts they may loose over it.

I've got to admit that the presentation from the digital projector was impressive so I'm ready to jump into the "digital cinema is coming soon" camp. [Eek!]

Dustin:

It IS an improvement over just commercials back to back. They have tried to make it an entertainment piece but who finds commercials entertaining? The "behind the scenes" stuff is OK. [sleep]

Posted by Brian Michael Weidemann (Member # 2243) on 07-19-2004, 03:28 PM:

The "behind the scenes" are just like all those useless "featurettes" you get on DVD's that the box lists as "Includes special, never-before-seen behind-the-scenes footage". They're CLEARLY geared solely toward advertising the movie, or television program, or what have you.

But I'll take them (and even the damned Fanta commercial!) over those horrid TNT Drama Shorts!!! Just kill me now! "We know drama (... we just couldn't produce it to save our lives!)"

quote: Robert E. Allen
My GM tells me that Regal has found it very profitable to the point they are not concerned about any boxoffice receipts they may loose over it.

It seems if you loose enough patronage, then you have smaller attendance numbers to show whoever's buying time on the pre-show slot. Advertisers don't pay good money to advertise where less people are. But at this point it seems negligible, since a very small handful of people won't really affect the big-picture attendance numbers.

Posted by Cory Isemann (Member # 2517) on 07-19-2004, 03:35 PM:

Anyone with the L6's having problems with them? We're already having to send one back to be replaced. Bad lamp socket. Other than this, and running a little long, we've had no trouble with our 20wenty.

quote: Frank Angel
Perhaps ditching that last frame might alleviate that tension. Just fade it out and not announce anything. When the film starts, it starts. An audience can sit in the theatre with the lights at half and the curtain closed for quite awhile before they start to get nasty. Ooops...sorry, Regal doesn't have any curtains, do they.

We've had quite a few customers complaining that the 20Wenty "stuck" when we're a few seconds late to start. Haha.

Posted by Emma Tomiak (Member # 1862) on 07-19-2004, 08:00 PM:

The 2wenty that played before our 1:30 pm show of Farenheight 9/11 was exactly 27 minutes and 11 seconds long.

Posted by Cory Isemann (Member # 2517) on 07-20-2004, 12:28 AM:

quote: Emma Tomiak
27 minutes and 11 seconds long.

27:11?! I thought (or was told) the 2wenty was like 21-23 minutes MAX! Wow.