Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Video Projector for Pre-Show Questions

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Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 07-30-2003, 08:54 PM:

We are looking into getting video projectors for our preshow ads. The model I've decided on is the Sanyo PLC-XT15A which is at 3200 lumens. How can I turn the lamp on and off with our automation which is a Component Engineering TA-10. Thanks for your help.

Chase Taylor

Continental Cinema 5

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 07-30-2003, 09:27 PM:

Here are two possibile avenues to explore:

1. Does the unit have a (hardwired) remote connection that can be latched on/off via your automation?

2. If you tied an AC outlet to your automation, would the unit wake up on its own when power was reapplied? Or would you have to manually turn it on again?

I'd start there. I did a quick search but I don't see enough information (yet) to answer any of these questions. Maybe you have access to one?

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 07-30-2003, 09:45 PM:

I'm getting a demo unit in Friday. There is control box called a PJ-Net Organizer that will come with it that is meant to go to your computer through cat-5, I don't know if you could use that some how. I don't see a hard wired remote but there is a inferred (?spelling?) remote with it. I though of some type of ir blaster rigged up with the automation but have not looked into it that much.

Chase Taylor
Continental Cinema 5

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 07-31-2003, 04:59 AM:

The ones at my theatre (Christie Roadrunner L7's or some such) rely on an electrical outlet for their auto-off. This outlet is somehow wired to the film projector motor and kills power whenever the film projector motor is running. We used to use these to shut down the slide projectors when the movie started but they have been pressed into service for the digitals. I'm not sure what the plug actually powers, but it would be an option to look into that does work quite well...

- Mike

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-31-2003, 07:21 AM:

Michael,

So when the outlet goes dead, does the projector go dead? As in, is the lamp allowed to cool? Upon, firing up, does the projector automatically wake up or do you have to turn on the projector?

Steve

Posted by Edward Jurich (Member # 1787) on 07-31-2003, 09:20 AM:

If you just kill the power to the video projector you may shorten its life. You need to check with the projector supplier to see if it needs to "cool down".

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 07-31-2003, 09:26 AM:

I know that you do have to let the lamp cool down.

Chase Taylor
Continental Cinema 5

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 07-31-2003, 09:28 AM:

In almost all projectors, the "cool down" is very important. Likewise, many of the mid-range projectors take a few minutes to come up to full output and stabilize for color temperature.

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 07-31-2003, 10:41 AM:

This is the problem with using video in place of slides. I haven't seen too many projectors lately but the ones I have played around are not designed to be automated.

I'll be watching this thread closely.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 07-31-2003, 10:46 AM:

Lamp life will be greatly decreased without the "cool down" period, the manual for this projector indicates 5 minutes is necessary. Its none to good for the light engine, either.

While this projetor will turn on automagically when plugged into an electrical outlet, controlled by your automation, you still need a way to turn it off. Many projectors keep an internal log of cool down cycles that can be accessed by a service technician...you will probably void your warranty.

The proper way to control a video projector is with a third party interface such as AMX or Crestron that can interpret relay closures from your automation and send the appropriate IR or RS232 commands to your projector. Extron electronics makes simple projector interfaces for this kind of thing.

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 07-31-2003, 11:42 AM:

Tom do you have any idea of what these products are called or model numbers.

Chase Taylor
Continental Cinema 5

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 07-31-2003, 02:11 PM:

The Extron product I had in mind is an MLC206 which would work but would require a bit of "field modification" [Wink]

to make it work...list price around $1200 and would only work for one screen.

I'd suggest an AMX Axcent3 which could be programmed to control up to 6 or 8 video projectors in as many auditoriums and lists for around $1800. This unit will accept commands from your automation in the form of contact closures and can be programmed to send the correct commands to the video projector. Try to find an Axcent2 at an auction site they're old but not obsolete and sell for peanuts.

This stuff isn't cheap but there is no really easy way to do what you want (I've tried.) There are projectors on the market that will accept contact closure inputs but they're few and far between.

You could always rip apart the projector's remote and wire up some leads to the power button, and connect them to a momentary relay in your automation or something. Ugly but it could work.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 07-31-2003, 09:55 PM:

I have seen several installations that someone has programmed a pic chip to address the RS232 port on a contact closure

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 07-31-2003, 10:54 PM:

This is the solution used in most theatres with digital preshows.

The outlet previousely used for the slide projector connects to a white box manufactured by Christy. When the slide projectors outlet powers off at start, the box signals the L6 to shut down properly. The box can also send a signal to a central server on the network logging the start times, current projector status, as well as flagging any missuse of the L6 projectors (big screen x-box after hours).

Posted by Michael Cunningham (Member # 210) on 08-01-2003, 06:55 AM:

Ah, the above diagram looks like what I was talking about. The digital projector doesn't just die completely, the bulb shuts down but the fans keep running and allow for a cool down period. That's what I meant by not being sure what the outlet was connected to as it was obviously not just main power for the digital, heh.

- Mike

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-01-2003, 10:38 AM:

Most video projectors have a "picture mute" function (sometimes with a different name) which functions like an electronic version of a changeover douser. This can sometimes be triggered with a contact closure if the projector has an external control interface (usually in the form of a DB-9 or DB-25 connector). Unfortunately, this a) uses up bulb life unnecessarily and b) still produces a faint grey picture (rather than completely blocking the light), and thus it isn't terribly useful for this purpose.

Video isn't really my "thing," but I've seen the Extron boxes used in a number of high-end installations (usually with a Crestron controller) and they seem to work fine, though it sounds expensive for the "slide projector workalike" application.

It sounds like the Christie box is probably the best solution. Are these available for other brands/models of DLP projectors?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-01-2003, 03:03 PM:

Mike, do you know if that is a custom box built by Christie for Regal, or some off-the-shelf item they now regularly stock? I wonder how versatile that box would be to speak to different makes and models of video projectors.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-01-2003, 06:25 PM:

Ya know, the Pana automation is already "speaking" to video projectors...

The key to communicating with current video projectors is having a way to communicate with them serially or via ethernet. InLine used to make a box that would take a contact closure and turn it into a serial command string but Extron now controls InLine and has discontinued that product. Extron does have a new box that seems to have an I/O via contact closures and speaks serial and ethernet...perhaps that will do.

As to the expense of the Crestron/AMX approach...they all depend on scale...you could have one Crestron controller handling your entire 24 plex...have a single video server (like you might have with music...just going through a DA). So if you are talking about a single or small plex then the Crestron/AMX approach would be pricey though VERY flexible. If you are talking about a reasonably sized plex then they become cost effective.

Heck you could have a Crestron/AMX system control everything if you wanted...film projectors too so you wouldn't need all those automations everywhere. At that point, you'd have a far cheaper system that is more flexible. However...you are also starting to put an awful lot of eggs into one basket.

Steve

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 08-01-2003, 07:56 PM:

We will be running the preshow from a DVD. I take it that the Axcent2 would have some sort of IR Blaster to make this work? The Axcent2 I have found on e-bay for a very cheap price but I don't know if I have to buy accessories to go with it to make this work or if I can still get them. The next problem is that most of the these projectors including the one I'm seriously looking at (SANYO PLC-XT15A) has a power off message when you turn it off and there is no way to turn off that part of the OSD. I'm going to get in contact with Sanyo and see if they have any ideas.

Chase Taylor
Continental Cinema 5

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 08-01-2003, 09:20 PM:

I already have a call into Sanyo for the "Power Off?" message on our PLC-XF41. I've been told via email to call and speak with a tech because of other issues with the projector. I'll let you know what he says.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-01-2003, 09:23 PM:

This regarding the Christie box Mike Olpin spoke of earlier...

quote:
CCM (Christie Connectivity Module). It is a Ethernet to RS232 translator with a circuit for contact closure triggering. It also has an embedded webserver with its own web page and is IP addressable. Regal is using them to put the projectors and plasmas on a IP network. It works with all Christie video projectors and can be customized for other devices (for a fee of course).

Also, if you are going to run the preshow from DVD, buy this unit. Not only is it a damn good DVD player, it has component and even DVI output, plus it has a mechanical power switch, so you can plug it into an automation controlled AC outlet like a slide projector. When it sees power, it boots up and starts playing. Although it does not claim to be able to play RW DVD discs, it does just fine. All at a price of $199. [thumbsup]

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 08-01-2003, 11:18 PM:

In case anyone is interested, the threaded plugs for ceiling mounting in Sanyo's PLC series (and possible others) projectors, are only molded into the plastic shell and not actually attached to the frame of the projector. After some time, the plastic may crack (one cause is by over tightening the mounting screws which is VERY easy to do) causing the threaded plugs to let go... allowing your projector to fall from the ceiling.

I'll post some pictures with my review of one soon.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 08-02-2003, 11:54 AM:

Brad's link to vinc.com produces a 500/ISE. [Razz]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-02-2003, 03:38 PM:

The link worked yesterday. Give it a shot in a day or two. It's a great unit with pretty much every kind of output you would ever want.

Posted by Tom Kroening (Member # 201) on 08-04-2003, 02:49 AM:

I believe we have some cheapie custom made boxes that sense when the switched outlet on the projector loses power then sends the signal to the digital projector via the input port. I can look into it tomorrow when I get to work. For the time being it shouldn't be that inconveniant to turn the projector off by the remote when you press the start button [Wink]

Just make sure whichever model you get can be controled with an external device via an input port.

Posted by Kevin Fassbind (Member # 1783) on 08-04-2003, 03:08 AM:

Hello everybody

I'm new here. I work as a projectionist in a Multiplex in Switzerland. We have also digital video beamers for our pre-show. I'm not that good with this technical stuff, so I unfortunately can't tell you exactly how this works [Embarrassed]

But I can tell you we have NEC Beamers and they turn on automatically and turn off automatically (with cooling). They're somehow connected over a RS232 connection to the EMK1 automation system from Kinoton...Or something like it.. [Wink]

For those who are interested here are some pics:
http://www.protronic.ch/cinedome1.html

Greetings
Kevin

Posted by Larry Zuverink (Member # 1483) on 08-04-2003, 10:37 AM:

USA Advertising handles our digital ads. They have a custom box that puts the projector into standby mode. One thing to watch is that these boxes are so sensitive that they will not turn off if there is a little inducted power getting into the switched outlet. A quick fix for this is to put a small plugin light socket into the same outlet with a small (about 12 watt) light bulb. This will kill any inducted power. Make sure to replace the lamps if they burn out though.

Posted by Mike Williams (Member # 1140) on 08-04-2003, 01:19 PM:

quote:
The next problem is that most of the these projectors including the one I'm seriously looking at (SANYO PLC-XT15A) has a power off message when you turn it off and there is no way to turn off that part of the OSD. I'm going to get in contact with Sanyo and see if they have any ideas.

If you cannot get rid of the OSD on power off and you still want to use that vid projector, why not work out a automatic douser and tie it in with the automation? You could place it in front of the lense so it will block the light before the OSD pops up for it to power off.
I'm sure there may be at least one reason this could be considered impractical.... but then if you already have the projector it may be worth it.

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 08-04-2003, 02:03 PM:

Well I got the demo in today (Sanyo PLC-XT15A) and it is wonderful the picture is great. I'm doing this at a 57 foot throw and 15 foot tall image in 16x9. When blown up all the way the image does not look bad it does start to get pixilated at about 1 screen height. Sanyo said the the Power Off message does not come on when using the PJ-Net Organizer (which are free this month with this projector). Now I've got to figure out how to make it work with the PJ.

Chase Taylor
Continental Cinema 5

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 08-05-2003, 07:42 AM:

Well I talked to Sanyo (PLC-XT15A), AMX (Axcent 3), and Component Engineering (TA-10). It looks like I'm going to have to use the control port on the projector that uses RS-232C codes to turn it on and off. When the Axcent receives the RS-485 code from the automation the Axcent 3 will send a RS-232C code to the appropriate video projector to turn it off and the same to turn it back on. This is going to be a little pricey ($1,700) but it will do what I need it to do. This is the only thing that I could find to make these two things talk to each other. I was looking at the Axcent 2 but it does not have enough control ports on it to do all five, I think it only has 3 ports.

Chase Taylor
Continental Cinema 5

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 08-07-2003, 10:09 AM:

You are correct the Axcent 3 has six RS232 ports the Axcent 2 only has four. The Axcent 3 has the ability to receive commands from your automation in the form of a contact closure supplied by the TA-10 (i.e. the contact closure being used by the slide projector right now.)

While the TA-10's RS-485 protocol would work you will come up short by four RS232-485 ports and need more boxes.

If you plan to go with the Axcent 3 there are some cable distance issues and programming work that need to be done, you should try to find a local dealer who can assist you in designing the system properly.

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 08-07-2003, 01:35 PM:

We only have five screens so the six ports will be enough. The TA-10 runs one data line between all five automations (up to 16 max) so one port for the RS-485 from the automation and five ports going to the video projectors RS-232C. The distances between the projectors should not be a problem since the longest runs will be forty feet, the dealer told me that 50 feet is the max. I think I got a good price on the Axcent 3 $1179 and luckily I've got a employee that can program in C+ so that is going to bring down cost a little more.

Chase Taylor
Continental Cinema 5

[ 08-07-2003, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Chase Taylor ]

Posted by Jean-Michel Grin (Member # 1360) on 08-08-2003, 01:42 AM:

Hi everyone,

An other way is to use the DTS XD-10 as video Source. Sounds like it can be configured to control a wide range of video projectors and it can be configured to be conected with any system of automation.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 08-09-2003, 03:23 PM:

Oops! You're right, the RS485 is a bus for all of the automations, so you only need 6 ports. Groovy!

Chase, the price on your Axcent 3 is reasonable. You did really well considering you have someone who knows C, they should be able to pick up on the axcess programming language quite easily.

AMX has online tutorials for the programming language that are a very good introduction. They are at www.amx.com --> dealers --> tech center --> training. AMX is very good about letting end users set up an account to access the dealer area.

Keep us updated on how it all works out.

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 08-13-2003, 12:55 PM:

Hopefully I will have this up and running by the middle of September. Thank You to everyone that has helped with this project of mine, and I will let you guys know how it turned out.

Chase Taylor
Continental Cinema 5

Posted by Paul Trimboli (Member # 1509) on 08-15-2003, 08:24 AM:

We run our adds off DVD, a company called Spotlight Cinema advertising does them, very good, but we are not in an Automated booth!

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-06-2003, 12:03 PM:

Has video projector automation become any easier to accomplish over the past few months?

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 12-06-2003, 01:36 PM:

The Pj-Net interface is an ethernet adaptor that lets you remotely monitor and operate the projector over a newtwork using a web browser. Kinda' neat but not useful for automations unless you want to get REALLY elaborate.

At Mercyhurst, we have close to 100 classrooms with video projectors installed. They are all controlled remotely with a device called EZ-Trol.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 12-07-2003, 07:28 AM:

Manny, the manufacturers seem to finally becoming aware that video projectors in a theatre environment have different needs than in the office confrence room (the fact that they still feel compelled to tout how their video projectors work in lighted rooms is a give-away that the still have some way to go to reach a "movie theatre" mindset).

The Eiki 3 LCD screen unit that the museum just purchased is marketed as their top-of-the-line "theatre projector." Well, as far as I am concerned any projector that projects anything on the screen that is not the video program that is being sent to it shouldn't be called a theatre projector. There is no reason whatsoever for menus, the manufacture's logo or "POWER DOWN?" questions to be projected on to the screen. There should be either a small, built-in LCD screen on the projector that will display configuration menus, NOT project them on the theatre screen. Hell, I have to use binoculars to see the damn things out on the theatre screen. And if not a dedicated LCD menu screen on the projector itself, then a video monitor output that you can use to monitor the picture and also display the menus in the booth, not on the theatre screen.

As already mentioned, the best way to kill the video projector image is the simplest way -- mechanically. Rig any change-over shutter in front of the projector lens and use your automation to slam that thing down, because no matter what expensive electronic interface you use to get the projector to shut off, until the bulb is actually powered (and cooled) down, there is no such thing as real black in video. As Scott pointed out, there will always be residual light coming out of that VP unless the bulb is completely turned off. The addendant sequencing problems with sequencing a bulb power-down with the associated proper cool-down time, to say nothing of the stupid "Do You Really Wanna Turn Me Off" message that gets projected before that can actually be accomplished, make an electro-mechanical dowser an elegant and simple solution.

To prove my point, I just observed two of our seasoned projectionists working a film festival that mixed film with some video. Without any coaching, they handled the there's-still-light-coming-out-of-that-freakin-video-projector problem in the simplest way. It was a very low tech piece of cardboard that they stuck in front of the video projector lens. In a situation where you don't want the video projector to power the bulb down because you need it again after only a few minutes, nothing any automation can do save pulsing a mechanical shutter is going to deal with the VP's residual light output.

Keep it simple....keep it clean. Use a mechanical shutter for instantanious dowsing of the light and then use whatever other automation sequencing you can devise to properly shut power down or just turn the bulb off.

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 12-07-2003, 07:43 AM:

Electro-mechanical dousers for video projectors are available from Buhl Optical. All the features Frank is requesting is basically available on the projectors manufactured for Digital Cinema use.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-07-2003, 09:17 AM:

There are some solutions out there.

A mechanical one has some obvious benefits for a mixed video/film program. Some projectors do have honest to god dousers in them some do not.

As for mere preshow stuff...all you really want/need for the projector to do is turn the lamp off or on (not the power to the projector).

If you just want a means to skip the "Power off?" question from coming on the screen. Extron/InLine makes a nifty gizmo that will allow you to press buttons and initiate serial commands called the CTL 208CM

Extron is coming out with another device that should solve the problem more automatically. That is, it will take contact closures and generate RS-232 commands. Furthermore, it has its own "web page" for use with a LAN. It can even generate "order replacement lamp" emails ahead of time as it monitors your projectors. It goes by the name of IPL T SF24

Lastly...within our own industry...Panalogic has its own device. Originally designed to be a slide projector controller (it can rack the slide tray back to zero, ensure accurate timing of each slide and such)...it too can generate an RS-232 command sequence to a video projector from a contact closure/open from your automation. It is called the SC100 .

Steve

Posted by Manny Knowles (Member # 1171) on 12-07-2003, 09:55 AM:

Assuming that I didn't care about voiding a warranty...

Is there any reason we couldn't just "hotwire" the switch that controls power to the bulb?

In the case of my Eiki projectors the switch has to be pressed twice due to the "confirm power off" feature. I don't think that switch does the physical closure. Two pulses would be simple to accomplish with a CA-21 automation.

Posted by Daryl C. W. O'Shea (Member # 1303) on 12-07-2003, 10:02 AM:

It might be cheaper to void the warranty on the projectors remote control.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-07-2003, 11:19 AM:

Be careful on the whole remote control IR idea in a movie theatre...if you have any back-to-back theatres with the same projector (or same brand)...you might get a "two-for-one" when you hit that IR pulse!

Steve

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-07-2003, 12:15 PM:

I like the IR idea. That way, I can just bring a $20 "universal" remote whenever I go to the movies and use it to turn off the ads. Perfect! I doubt that there are any theatres within 50 miles of here that are using DLP projectors for ads, however. Kodak and Telex slide projectors seem to be the advertising medium of choice at the moment.

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 12-07-2003, 01:51 PM:

We ended up using the "AMX Axcent 3" and have had not one problem, we used the RS-232c ports to our "Sanyo PLC-XT10A". The AMX reads the RS-485 stream from the CE TA-10 Automation and sends the commands to the video projectors. The key was that you have to have a remote box for the TA-10 for this to work. The remote box is constantly polling the automation and asking what each screen is doing. The AMX is programmed to look for certain lines of code and when it sees that code it sends the appropriate code to the projectors. It has worked flawlessly. Thanks for all of the help from you guys.

Chase

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 12-07-2003, 03:05 PM:

Both AMX and Crestron certainly offer the most flexible solutions...however they are normally too costly...UNLESS you are doing a decent sized plex. Heck, with a Crestron or AMX system, you could automate just about everything and skip on all of the individual projector automations too. There is a lot of power there.

Steve

Posted by Stephen Wilkinson (Member # 1463) on 12-07-2003, 09:23 PM:

A major chain here uses AMX for all it's cinema automation with some propriety relay cards and windows software to control it. A lot of independent (meaning single to 5 screens, owned by different people) cinemas use Panalogic CA2000 automation which can control equipment serially or by contact closures, and programing changes can be done on PC and then uploaded to the automation units.

For your above application Panalogic have a unit that controls serial devices and interfaces with contact closure automations. SC100.

Anyway that's my plug.

(I'm not affiliated with them, just I've installed a bit of there gear)

Stephen