This is topic Exit Slide Projectors, Enter DVD Projection in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000143
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2002, 02:23 PM:
While traveling back from vacation...(?).... I received a call from one of our theaters of the conversion from slide projectors to DVD projection.I checked it out today, and pussy-footed away from it when I saw the quality of the screen image. The ads and the accompanying sound was burned to a DVD-R disc, and the DVD player was a conventional high-quality unit. The projector was the size of the Kodak slide projector. The manager told me the whole system costs about $8,000.
With the house lights up full, the image (which was a full 1.85 ratio) was at about 17 foot lamberts.
I know nothing of this new system we are using. From what I have seen, I was blown away by the quality. The hand writing is on the wall.
I am going to stuff a DVD in that thing to see if:
1. It will play
2. How good it looks
3. How good the sound actually is.
Anyone familiar with these new fangled units?
Paul
Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 01-03-2002, 02:35 PM:
The $8000 price you mention probably will buy a projector with a light output of between 1000 and 2000 lumens. 2000 lumens should be able to light an 18 x 10 foot matte white screen to about 11 footlamberts. What model projector was in use? What resolution projector? Who is marketing the system? ------------------
John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7525A
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Cell: 716-781-4036 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com
Web site: http://www.kodak.com/go/motion
Posted by Joe Beres (Member # 678) on 01-03-2002, 03:13 PM:
One thing to check on is the lens that comes with the $8000 projector. Most video projectors are packaged with a lens intended for a very short throw. If you intend to have the projector in a projection booth, you will probably need a different lens, at a cost of $1200 or more. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, Paul. Hope this is of some help.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2002, 03:28 PM:
John and Joe: Hopefully, I'll get over to the theater later today and goof around with it, and find out more about it. But it sure was impressive. I'll get back to this tread and keep you updated as to what I find.
Paul
Posted by Tom Wurz (Member # 42) on 01-03-2002, 04:27 PM:
I don't have any equipment info. but, NCN has a digital set-up at an AMC theater in Orange County California. I believe it's at the Block of Orange mall. Our NCN rep told me that the NCN techs are our there constantly adjusting the system.
Tom
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-03-2002, 05:25 PM:
We have a monster-sized "Proxima" projector at the church I attend, and once we changed out the lens to accomodate the throw from the sound booth to the screen behind the choir loft, the projected image is outstanding. We've got about a 75'-80' throw to a 30'x30' screen. I am a member of the "Worship Support Team" (i.e. Sound Guys), and if I remember correctly, the lens swap-out cost us about $1,200.00 +/-.
Since this machine is esentially a video projector that we have hooked up to a computer, VCR, and DVD player in the booth, I've always had a question about the quality of the image that comes from the computer. Is the quality of the projected image signal from the computer directly related to the type of video card in the computer? (i.e. "Cheap video card in computer = bad picture on the screen")
If we swapped out the cheap Gateway video card in the computer to a decent card, would the image be better on the screen?
I still want to see a video projector fill a drive-in screen.
------------------
Barry Floyd
Floyd Entertainment Group
Nashville, Tennessee
(Drive-In Theatre - Start-Up)
Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 01-03-2002, 07:58 PM:
"If we swapped out the cheap Gateway video card in the computer to a decent card, would the image be better on the screen?"This depends on a few things.
What resolution will the projector project? 800X600 is probably the minimum acceptable and almost any video card will support this.
1024X768, or XGA, is better. There are several higher resolutions possible but probably XGA is adequate... much better than an SVGA video feed, anyway.
What are you projecting from the computer? If it's business graphics you can get away with 256 colors, again even the cheapest (reasonably current) video card should do that at 1024X768. For "real" images - either photos or video off the computer - you need at least 16 bit color and preferably 24/32 bit color. The ability to display high resolution color at high video resolution is limited on some cheap cards - it takes a lot of memory. (The projector will handle any color resolution you send it)
I expect your card will be able to handle 1024x768 and 16/32 bit color. This is pretty much standard now. What you get with the fancy expensive video cards is mostly related to computer games, they can draw 3D game graphics very fast so the games play better. A cheaper card will usually do the same job but slower. For showing pictures or AVI video there is no advantage to an expensive card.
So unless you want to play Quake in church on the big screen it shouldn't be a problem.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 01-03-2002, 08:28 PM:
Comparing an $8k video projector with a $500 slide projector isn't really fair, though. I don't know how much a xenon slide projector costs, but I'm willing to bet that it's less than $8k. And a good xenon slide projector should put out a higher resolution image than 35mm motion-picture film, with equal brightness. Of course this depends on the lenses used, which are often the weak points in the typical slide-projection situation...This isn't to say that the video projector isn't useful and/or doesn't provide good quality pictures, just that the comparison is between apples and oranges. It also ignores things like maintenance costs, etc.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2002, 10:15 PM:
OK, I looked that thing over. It is a Hitachi CP-X325 Multi-media projector. Looking it up on the WWW, the resolution is 1024 x 768, and has 1600 Lumans brightness. It uses a 0.9" PolySi LCD, No. of colors is 16.7 million. It has a contrast ratio of 300:1 with Digital keystone correction. It uses a 130 W UHB lamp which lasts for about 2000 hours. It is compatible to NTSC, NTSC 4.43, PAL, PAL-M, PAL-N, and SECAM.There are no adjustments to fiddle with, except focus.
Very impressive on our screens. It is kind of sad when a 130 watt bulb beats a 1600 watt Xenon. It sure looked better than 11 foot-lamberts, but I have nothing to compare it with. That pile of junk we have is one of those old ORC Consoles with a vertical lamp, a crappy reflector, and an equally crappy filter.
However, the audio sucks - a WHOPPING 1.0 X 2watt mono amp, which is not used.
The sheet says it has an image size of 40 to 200 inches, with an aspect ratio of 4:3.
The DVD player was a Pioneer DV-341, and the SVHS output jack was used in this setup. The left and right audio output was feeding the cinema processors.
There was an mysterious little black box that "just happens to be there", but since there are no tags on the screws that say keep out, I guess I will take a peek to see what is in it. I am guessing it is a control box of some sort.
Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 01-03-2002, 10:24 PM:
I just put together a video system for our pre-show junk: Computer-powerpoint slides, S-VHS and DVD.The video projector is a Mitsubishi LVP-X400BU that cost $7500. It puts a 32-foot wide picture on the screen at 64-feet of throw. The native resolution is 1024x768 at 16.7 million colors. It's a mid-sized LCD projector, with dimensions of 11.75"w x 6.25"h x 14.5"d.
Picture brightness and clarity are acceptable for what they are used for. And 5.1 audio from the DVD player sounds awesome in the theater.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 01-03-2002, 10:40 PM:
Adam, your screen is a little larger than ours, but the throw is about the same. How many foot lamberts you getting on your screen?
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-03-2002, 11:33 PM:
Perhaps the "little black box" was some sort of line doubler? We used to show LaserDisc movies in the small house and sometimes in the big house at UA on Wednesdays during the morning and evening. Depending on the quality of the LaserDisc, it didn't look too bad. It passed through a Faroudja line doubler and was converted to progressive scan. We didn't use S-Video since LaserDiscs are not recorded with separate chroma and luminance thus would have made little, if any difference. I bet the Y/C separator inside the line doubler was ten times better than the one inside the LaserDisc players anyway (we would run changeovers with two LD players). It looked way better than 70mm film... no kidding!OK I am kidding. But considering, it didn't look too horible.
Posted by Dave Williams (Member # 299) on 01-04-2002, 02:06 AM:
There are a few models of DVD players that are progressive scan. YOu can also with the right equipment convert to HD and D1 stream through a pixel shift (floats the green off by a micron to smooth the digital image). When the image is cast properly on screen, it rivals film presentation in many theaters. MOst people really wouldnt know the difference. Given time, like another year or so, film could be dead as we know it.
And more power to it. I would rather just pop in any old dvd and then take a nap.
Then reminisce about days of yore when we had to put film guard on film! It is so much better as a dvd cleaner.
Dave
Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 01-04-2002, 02:11 AM:
quote:
I would rather just pop in any old dvd and then take a nap.
Why would they need you to pop in the DVD? The manager could easily do it on his way to the office to scam off some $$$ for himself. You would be outside of the theater, rooting through the dumpster looking for things to take back to your new home, which is the cardboard box right by the dumpster! 
Posted by Jesse Skeen (Member # 586) on 01-04-2002, 01:54 PM:
Hmm, porno theaters dumped film altogether over 15 years ago in favor of regular ol' video projection, have they been trying this too? (On-screen advertising is MUCH more obscene than any sort of porn! 
)
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 01-04-2002, 03:15 PM:
It might be interesting to check out what the guys at the AV Science forums are looking at when it comes to video cards in an HTPC application. Or for recommendations on progressive-scan stand-alone DVD players for those not going the HTPC route. Also, lots of projector recommendations and tweeks. The link:
http://www.avscience.com Go to the forums and take a look at the FAQ under the HTPC thread which has "best of" component lists at three different levels of price/performance.
If I ever get back to work I'll be trying my hand at building an HTPC myself.
Paul
Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 01-07-2002, 01:49 PM:
I "roasted" a buddy of mine with some humourous home-video (VHS) at his wedding that I M.C.'d. I used something very similar to what Paul describes, a multi-media LCD projector that we borrowed from a community college. It was a very large room, probably 80x100, and
we ran on a standard pull-down projection screen about 24feet wide. At this width,pixelation was just beginning to show, but really not back behind the dance-floor where everyone was seated. You're right, sound is lousy, so we by-passed right from VCR to D.J.'s setup. It was slightly dim, but nobody had any problem at all, thought I was some kind of technical wizard. I would think that the pixels will be gone before they ever figure out how to achieve proper light levels.As I understand, LCD is light PASSED THROUGH the liquid crystal. Why don't they engineer these panels to slide into your aperature plate slot to be run by the lamps and lenses you have?
Also, for any skiers or hosts of the yearly Warren Miller ski films, I see that they now have abandoned 50+ years of film and are presenting in something called "DVD Projection". Anyone see it? They still play some fairly large auditoriums, wonder how it looks?
If the evil digital does come to pass, wouldn't you rather "plug and play" with DVD discs rather than download, save, store etc, etc, etc.?
Barry, bring up your projector and I'll paint my barn white (it's about 50 feet wide) and we'll try 'er out!
Posted by Barry Floyd (Member # 385) on 01-07-2002, 03:08 PM:
""Barry, bring up your projector and I'll paint my barn white (it's about 50 feet wide) and we'll try 'er out!""Dave, I doubt we could draw much of a crowd showing "Karaoke-style" Baptist hymnal lyrics and the pastor's power point slides of his sermon notes!!
------------------
Barry Floyd
Floyd Entertainment Group
Nashville, Tennessee
(Drive-In Theatre - Start-Up)
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-07-2002, 04:04 PM:
Depending on the quality of the lens, it could be much more than $1200.We sell a real cool Sony video projector (VPL-PX31/ZM101). It is no bigger than a slide projector (and actually smaller than some), has 2800 lumins, takes virtually any video signal with multiple inputs and with the long throw zoom lens (the ZM101 part of the model) is projectable from the booth in many if not most theatres. The sucker is bright enough that most customers comment that they don't have to turn the lights off to see the image like with other video projectors.
That zoom lens is pricey though...close to $3000 as I recall Another nice feature of that projector for theatres is the ability to have the lens non-shifted. Most portable projectors have the lens permanently shifted to point up from a conference table (or down from a ceiling).
I agree with Scott though...when it comes to image quality, a good quality xenon slide projector will beat just about any video image from one of these portable projectors.
However, for theatre use, it make a whole lot more sense to use a DVD/video projector system in terms of control (each image will display exactly as long as it should), ease of use (no trays to update, just change the DVD on a regular basis when you change your "Movie Tunes"
DVD/Video also opens the door for moving ads instead of still slides.
Getting a good video projector also allows the theatre to have another source of income by renting out the space during non-operating hours for meetings and such...just make sure your projector can handle data from a computer. Power point presentations are quite popular.
Steve
------------------
"Old projectionists never die, they just changeover!"
Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 05-31-2002, 05:29 AM:
We sell a real cool Sony video projector (VPL-PX31/ZM101). W had one like this recently for a stage show.
Threw a crappy VHS copy of Shawshank on & it looked O.K.
plugged in the Play station & had a blast.
Crash Bandicoot on a 40' screen rocks.
Posted by Mark Lucas (Member # 791) on 05-31-2002, 05:45 AM:
Onscreen advertising... Classy. 
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 05-31-2002, 11:55 AM:
Maybe not the classiest thing in the world, but necessary for many theatres to keep their bottom line too far out of the red, its just the way it is right now. We are just developing our slide program on the Arion Show Wizard from www.arion-usa.com and it is great. Plays digital audio through a Compact Flash Card and you set up the slide cues through a computer program provided by Arion.------------------
Adam Fraser
www.pinestheatre.com
Posted by Mark Lucas (Member # 791) on 05-31-2002, 01:06 PM:
Well, I guess it doesn't really matter. None of the theaters I go to have slides and I try to avoid theaters that do. 
Posted by Dave Bird (Member # 490) on 05-31-2002, 03:07 PM:
No intent of flaming whatsoever, but Mark, please do check out Adam's theatre at www.pinestheatre.com . One of the more unique and undoubtedly classiest theatres in the world. It IS too bad such places are not rewarded by Hollywood with the type of business relationship that would make on-screen advertising unnecessary.
Posted by Mark Lucas (Member # 791) on 05-31-2002, 05:11 PM:
Looks interesting. Like something Disney would build. Not sure how it would sound with all those beams and other things though. Onscreen advertising really is evil though. What's the point of having curtains if they're always open? It's half a notch below those dreadful television commercials most theaters force upon their customers.
Posted by Adam Fraser (Member # 1074) on 05-31-2002, 09:04 PM:
Never have had a complaint about the sound that I can remember and to me it sounds great. The only thing I can think of was people who didn't know what surrounds did asking "why is sound not coming out of the side speakers all the time?" but I guess that quote is for the customer quotes section
BTW Thanks Dave for the compliment, people saying things like that is what keeps me loving this business.
------------------
Adam Fraser www.pinestheatre.com
Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 05-31-2002, 10:00 PM:
Well Mr Lucas you finalay sank below the low
As much as I personally hate any screen adverts they are an economic reality (like DLP)
In many areas the main tabs close at the end of the slides and reopen on the film where the facilities permit
As for accoustics I doubt that is a problem check out the pictures of the chatauqua institution theatre one of the best soundiing rooms I have been in
With the big JBL biradial horns. The owner Paul Schmit maintains one of the classiest presentations around
Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 05-31-2002, 11:01 PM:
Adam, very cool theater JJ
------------------
"Film is made of silver, video is made of rust"
'nuf said
Posted by Adam Wilbert (Member # 1184) on 05-31-2002, 11:22 PM:
The "little black box" that Paul was talking about way-back-when is used to put the digital projector into standby mode when the film projector is started. It is supposed to save the digital lamp because the cooling fans remain on during the show. It has failed several times though (which requires unplugging the darn thing to reset it), and in one of our three auditoriums, doesn't work at all. This has caused images of Britney Spears to be superimposed on top of the green-band on a couple of instances. (actually an improvement to the traditional green band, I thought!)-Adam
Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 06-01-2002, 12:52 PM:
My excutive director wants me to purchase a digital projector to do away with slides and use powerpoint. The cost we were quoted was 25000$. What are the uses for a digital projection vs regular video projection? Is it worth the cost?------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation
Posted by Steve Kraus (Member # 476) on 06-01-2002, 10:32 PM:
Just out of curiousity how much revenue do those slides typically bring in? I hope it's a lot because if they're subjecting us to such ignominy for a few measly bucks then it's not warranted. But if it's a sizable revenue stream then perhaps it's a necessary evil. Ditto the video game machines.
Posted by Paul G. Thompson (Member # 655) on 06-02-2002, 12:49 AM:
Adam, the maintenance responsibility of those machines rests on the shoulders of the company that installed them. That company should be notified of the problem.
Posted by Thomas Procyk (Member # 1170) on 06-02-2002, 10:02 AM:
As far as the slide people go, (I think we used NCN, or whichever company Regal used.) has anyone had the problem of them leaving behind old slides or equipment? When I transferred to a much older location, I found at least 5 broken slide projectors, various parts, boxes, binders full of old slides, and don't even get me started on leftover carousels. Seems that when there was a problem, they would replace the projector, but not take the old one back. When they showed up to change the slides I pointed out all of the stuff to them and they finally took it back. The woman seemed very happy that all of this equipment "turned up" Jan-- as far as digital compared to regular video projection, I have yet to see a DLP presentation, but I figure for something that is not resolution-demanding like slides, video projection would do. I own a SharpVision XP-S55U LCD projector (bought 3 years ago, $4500) with S-video inputs which puts out a very good quality picture up to 500" We played with it a few times at my theater, trying various DVDs and game systems Picture quality was great, but brightness was about slide-quality. We were projecting in our largest auditorium from the booth. For home use, with a 100" screen, picture quality was fantastic. (but not as good as "film done right" ) We even ran "The Wall" in my friend's backyard for her birthday on a home-built screen and quality was still quite good.
=TMP=
Posted by Jan Hackett (Member # 1231) on 06-02-2002, 10:50 AM:
Well I am in the process of revamping our preshow. I have to have it done by next week. The slides look okay with black lettering on white background. But dark slides are washed out from the houselights.(even though my front 3 rows are burn't out and I can't figure out how to change them...see other thread groundlevel) My director wants the advertising slides first and then the houserule slides projected with narration a minute before show start. My cyote is broken so I am using one slide projector and syncing the sound fron a cdr. Seems like powerpoint would work alot better? ?------------------
Jan Hackett
Theater Operations Manager
Extreme Screen Dynatheater
NM Museum of Natural History Foundation