Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Kinoton DLP projector

This is topic Kinoton DLP projector in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Stephen Jones (Member # 16) on 08-11-2000, 11:57 PM:

Kinoton now have a DLP projector to check it out go to www.kinoton.com and look under news or product innovations and all will be revealed.

Stephen

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Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-14-2000, 07:51 AM:

The Kinoton/Barco DLP Cinema projector looks like an exact copy of the prototype Texas Instruments designed, and of the one Christie showed at ShoWest.

Still limited to only 1280 x 1024 pixels, which is less than the LCD displays on high-end notebook computers. Still needs two unique and very expensive 1.5X and 1.9X anamorphic lenses, which tend to accentuate the pixel structure.

IMHO, with most experts agreeing that Digital Cinema must be better than HDTV or what can be obtained in the home, anyone buying into this technology prematurely may be stuck with a "white elephant". Already, most experts agree that 2K resolution is an absolute minimum for theatre presentation, with 4K preferred.

Has anyone heard a selling price? Add the cost of a QuVis or similar 40+ Gigabyte high data rate server, networking, mastering and distribution costs, etc. Satellite and fiber optic bandwidth is NOT free, and neither is making small volumes of DVDs.

The 30 or so prototype installations and mastering/distribution have been heavily subsidized by companies promoting digital cinema.

A brand new film print costs about $1500 US. Shown a typical 300 times, it therefore costs about $5 per show for film. IMHO, Digital Cinema doesn't make technical or economic sense yet.

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John P. Pytlak, Senior Technical Specialist
Worldwide Technical Services, Entertainment Imaging
Eastman Kodak Company
Research Labs, Building 69, Room 7419
Rochester, New York, 14650-1922 USA
Tel: 716-477-5325 Fax: 716-722-7243
E-Mail: john.pytlak@kodak.com

Posted by Richard C. Wolfe (Member # 431) on 08-14-2000, 08:25 AM:

Considering the bankrupt status of Carmike and the rumors of the same happening to many of the other big chains, where on earth will the money come from to make this change to digital projection?

We the small independent, have been shaking in our boots wondering how we could ever afford this change, thinking the parade would pass us by. Now it seems clear that the big boys can't either.

Considering the current status of the industry, I don't see this happening anytime soon. Probably not for another five to ten years if even then.

Money will not be spent to convert nonproducing cinemas. It will be necessary for the theatre industry to thin it's ranks down to around 25,000 screens before profitability returns. That means the closure of 10,000 screens, not counting all those still being built. A large readjustment will need to take place before any of this makes any sense.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-14-2000, 08:57 AM:

I suppose for some unknown reason that the Kinoton version will have a far steadier picture than any of the other contending DLP machines will................

Mark

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 08-14-2000, 05:11 PM:

Damn...that heartless beast is ugly.

Posted by Leo Enticknap (Member # 534) on 08-14-2000, 06:55 PM:

John P raises a very important point - how are the research and development costs of DLP going to be recouped? If you look at every other major technical change in the cinema industry, you'll find that the cost was absorbed as a whole across the production, distribution and exhibition sectors.

In the 1920s, when projection speeds gradually increased from 16 to 24fps, projector manufacturers and labs went to a lot of trouble persuading studios that two-bladed shutters made sound economic sense, because the lower-powered lamps that could be used and the reduced timing maintenance on each projector more than offset the cost of the increased footage of release prints.

When sound came in, the studios and the cinemas were owned by the same organisations, so what they spent on equipment they saved on the cost of hiring musicians.

When the nitrate to safety conversion happened in the late 1940s, the increased cost of triacetate prints was more than paid for by not having to maintain the safety precautions made necessary by nitrate, so exhibitors were happy to accept it.

With DLP, no such economic argument exists, as yet. The capital expenditure needed is large (with the risk that newer, better digital projectors will supercede the ones you have just invested hundreds of thousands of dollars for within a year or two), none of the main distributors offer software support in any systematic way, and, more importantly, the film industry is not as vertically integrated as it once was. So if an independent cinema (or chain) invests serious money in this technology and it goes obsolete, it will not have financial backing from other sectors of the industry (e.g. production) to absorb the cost.

For these reasons I cannot see DLP making any wide-scale impact in the near future.

Posted by David Kilderry (Member # 142) on 08-17-2000, 05:56 AM:

Why can't some the development $ spent on digital be redirected to develope high resolution 3D on film? Theatres will pay for an advance like that. The customer will demand it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-17-2000, 08:01 AM:

Really good 3D makes allot of people sick when they watch it. So the development of a new vacu-suck chair that is self cleaning is definately in order for this format. I'll never forget going to the Edwards Imax 3D in Boise and smelling the puke!! Quite a number of seats were bagged over that day.
Mark

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 08-19-2000, 06:48 AM:

Hi Guys, been gone for a while and nice to be back.
The price out on the street is a LIST of ~US$350,000 for the system, projector, console and server/playback unit. I imagine the delivered price would be below that and now that three companies are handling the DLP technology (Barco, DPI and Christie) competition might change that pricing structure a bit. But still...

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 08-19-2000, 02:03 PM:

But where's the competition? As I understand it, the expensive part of the DLP machine is the chip itself, and those are all made by TI. Presumably all that Kinoton, Christie, et al. are providing is the modified lamphouse or console and the "package" deal. Have any of these manufacturers actually sold a single unit outright? My understanding is that most (all?) of the current DLP-equipped theatres are using equipment that was rented from someone (TI?) at extremely favorable rates.

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 08-19-2000, 08:31 PM:

The original TI projectors out in the field are protoypes. The three vendors of the TI technology are buying the cinema-type DLP chips and some supporting circuitry. Everything else they do -- optics, control & driver circuits, etc. -- in the projector itself is their own technology. The lamphouse and server are totally separate items -- Strong builds a "DLP-type" Console as well.

These DLP projector versions might parallel what TI's done to this point or there could be changes, we won't really know until the competition shows their stuff. The question is can they improve on what TI has done so far? Can they make it better and longer-lasting (and cheaper) as a production version vs. the prototypes? They will still have the basic optical path, lens requirements, etc.

Posted by Tim Sherman (Member # 569) on 08-27-2000, 03:20 PM:

does anyone know if they are planning on releasing a DLP for the drive-in industry? Just curious at since its not film how large of a xenon bulb could be used for a brighter piture. The picture here isn't bad now but all of you know it can always be better.

Posted by John Pytlak (Member # 331) on 08-28-2000, 09:21 AM:

Tim:

I would assume a Digital Cinema projector could be used for a drive-in. One concern would be light output -- Gordon McLeod reports one DLP installation in Canada had to reduce image size considerably to obtain adequate brightness. Having worked at a drive-in, my other concern would be the high level of dust, dirt and airborne debris, and its effect on sensitive electronic components like disk drives. Also power fluctuations and lightning storms are more of a problem in drive-ins, unless a conditioned UPS is used to protect the sensitive electronics.

Posted by Pat Moore (Member # 380) on 08-29-2000, 08:51 PM:

I think another concern in "normal" drive-in applications would be lenses. The digital systems I've seen are in new theatres with short throws, and the lenses are pretty new designs built on those specifications. Making longer focal lengths for normal drive-in needs might be a big step and one they are not going to hurry into.