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Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 04-11-2008, 10:45 AM:
 
Gauntlet Features web page
quote:
Gauntlet Features - The end of the reel

Examining the digitalization of film

Story by: Ryan Pike, Entertainment Editor and Jordyn Marcellus, E&P Editor
Story date: Thursday, March 27, 2008

Film is the magic medium. It's an art form limited only by the creator's imagination. It's a fusion of painting, photography, theatre, music and writing. Film can bring delight to children and melancholy to adults. Ever since the earliest Lumiere films scared audiences with the first moving images of a train looming into the screen, the idea of making films for a living has been the premiere aspiration for millions of starry-eyed creative types the world over.

With our culture's digitalization, film has been rapidly upgrading and becoming more and more based on the computer. From Tron's primitive graphics, to the fully computer-generated Jar Jar Binks in the Star Wars prequel trilogy, there has been tremendous growth in the way film is made over 20 years. Through that time, there's been a single constant: when the movie ships to theatres for projection, it's printed on 35mm film.

"Thirty-five millimetre has been the commercial industry standard since 1914," says University of Calgary associate professor of film studies Charles Tepperman. "What that means is that, if you want to watch something, you need to watch it on 35mm. You don't expect that a format like that will be stable forever-most people tend to agree that digital projection and filmmaking will eventually replace 35mm."

The changing of the guard has begun in Calgary as multiplexes like the Sunridge Spectrum and Scotiabank Chinook are gearing up for the wave of the future: digital projection. Digital projection is the logical continuation of the movement to digital video and high definition video formats. With the Big Mouse in Hollywood handling the big push for digital projection, it's no surprise that it is being brought from the cutting edge to the mainstream.

"Disney-in their infinite wisdom-released Hannah Montana 3D and it was a monstrous success reaching $30 million on opening weekend with just a handful of screens," explains Leonard Binning, president of the Motion Picture Theatre Association of Alberta. "Unfortunately, it did not play anywhere where there was not 3D [digital projection], so they really pushed and forced for it. It's not that every one of Cineplex's theatres are making every one of their screens digital. [Cineplex is] moving to it, as is the industry."

Although Disney is fiercely lobbying for the movement to digital projection for the implementation of 3D filmmaking, it won't be a sudden changeover to the new format, according to Binning.

"Honestly, we're probably three-to-five years away from total conversion," says Binning. "It's a huge, huge undertaking, but if we want to talk about quality, it's fantastic. Especially the three-dimensional stuff-that could redefine how people go to the movies again."

Binning argues that the one fundamental problem of modern cinema houses-the unprepared 15-year-old projectionist-can cause previously gorgeous film prints to become muddled, scratched-up messes after its second showing. Digital projection's greatest strength, then, is a crystal-clear image quality every time, regardless of who's in the booth.

"The upside to digital projection is perfect presentation every time," explains Binning.

"Whether you see No Country for Old Men on opening night or six months later, it's going to be crystal clear, as good-possibly better-than 35mm. Right now there are detractors that say digital's not as good. That was largely true until about a year ago. Digital is now every bit as good and, if you move into the 4k system, it's probably better than 35mm."

If people believe 3D filmmaking and consistently perfect image quality would help change the viewing experience entirely, as Binning argues, there's still one issue: what about theatres whose finances wouldn't allow them to show a film in 3D? Places like the Uptown and the Plaza in Calgary, which are independently owned and operated, may not be able to compete with the juggernaut theatres whose finances allow them to recoup the expensive costs of converting to digital.

"You could probably outfit a traditional projector booth for $50,000�$60,000 if you're a good shopper," says Binning. "[For digital projection] you're looking at probably a minimum of $100,000 per booth-and that's if you aren't replacing the [cinema's] screen. The cost is almost double. Costs are much higher, not just the up-front cost, but the maintenance. The replacement bulbs for the projectors are rumoured to be about double. Upkeep is rumoured to be almost double. If you were spending a couple thousand a year in [general] maintenance, that's probably going to be $4,000�$5,000 a year."

These higher costs will help to drain the already-shallow coffers of small or independent theatres. NUTV executive director Michelle Wong drives the point home by discussing a classic Calgary arthouse cinema: Kensington's Plaza Theatre.

"Looking at the Plaza, for them to upgrade to digital equipment that's going to take a huge pipeline of information off an FTP site and then projecting it, that's where the real challenge is going to be," notes Wong. "Where are they going to get the money to improve their equipment to basically broadcast productions?"

While people may not necessarily spend their time thinking about theatres like the Plaza, Tepperman shares an interesting anecdote that relates back to our own university-with troubling implications for theatres.

"Here on campus, we had to mothball the old 35mm projectors last summer because they were too expensive to maintain," says Tepperman. "[But], places like the Plaza have a commitment to showing old 35mm film and old films that are on the classic stock."

For years, Canadian filmmakers have struggled to get their films played in the big multiplex theatres. With digital projection, Wong suggests that the movement to digital will not only hurt the smaller theatres, but also the independent filmmakers whose movies are shown there.

"Where is Canadian cinema shown but in independent Canadian cinemas?" asks Wong. "The impact is more in exhibition down the line than in production. I don't know whether independent filmmakers will feel the negative impact as much as exhibitors would. If they can't do the upgrade and if their productions can't compete quality-wise with mainstream cinema, then maybe they won't have as many audiences as mainstream theatres."

Digital filmmaking also creates a huge disparity between what theatres can play. All-digital theatres may have an additional problem presenting classic films in their original format.

"One of the things that film exhibition as a standardized practice has insured is that even if an independent film isn't being distributed through mainstream avenues it would still be on the right format to be shown in a theatre," says Tepperman. "Could old films like Lawrence of Arabia still be shown in [all-digital] theatres, even though you can only get film prints of it?"

As well, increased maintenance costs will likely further inflate ticket prices. From the days of $5 matinees, to the age of $12 tickets, theatres are charging audiences an arm and a leg for the opportunity to see a flick. If it costs so much more for theatres to switch to this new format, what does that mean for the average consumer?

"Costs go up and I'm hoping that we don't pass all of that on to the moviegoer," Binning says. "What I'm hoping we'll see is perhaps-through the offering of a greater variety of product, the knowledge that the presentation is always going to be perfect, the 3D and novelty factor-attendance will start to increase again. Attendance at movie theatres has been fairly flat and maybe even slightly declining for a number of reasons. I think this is looked to as saviour in putting more bums in the seats."

Despite all the economics, filmmaking is at its core an art. When it comes to filmmakers' aesthetic choices, there's always a worry about the way the film looks. As a visual medium, light and colour are vital components to film. DV and HD video filmmaking technologies-the precursor to digital projection, which have been around for years-have specific disadvantages, explains Alberta Media Arts Alliance Society vice president Melody Jacobson.

"There are qualities that you'll see when you're watching film that get flattened out when you see them digitally," says Jacobson. "That's why watching films on film[stock] is so special. The quality of the light and the depth of the image on film is different than on digital-for example, colours will often look more natural on film."

Wong further elaborates on the technical aspects of Jacobson's argument.

"We're taking about range and latitude of colour," she explains. "When you take a picture with film stock, you're going to get a high-resolution picture with black-blacks and white-whites. In regard to colour, you're going to get a broad latitude, but with digital video, the latitude may be half as much."

While digital has its advantages, Jacobson notes that film has a much closer biological analogue than digital video formats.

"Film is more natural to the way that we see and our eyes," says Jacobson. "Digital [video] oftentimes makes what the audience is watching look hyper-realistic. Our brains process images like film and that makes it easier to get pulled into the story and screen than when it's a digitally shot film. With digital, it always feels like there's something between, you, the viewer, and the image on screen."

Beyond the natural look of film, digital reproductions actually contain less information than their film original and shooting digital originally to avoid conversion is an expensive option, Wong adds.

"Converting the film into HD or a digital file, it only contains a portion of that information in the filmstrip," she explains. "When you're shooting in digital and they're talking about 1080i-which is the upper realm of its resolution-to function in a total HD realm is quite expensive because you're talking about terabytes of data as opposed to the ease of buying 400 feet of 16mm or 1000 feet of 35mm."

At the end of the day, audiences will determine if digital projection supplants the old stalwart of 35mm or is relegated to novelty pictures like the old Smell-o-Vision films of the 1950s.

"There are some test markets in the [U.S.] where there are two competing theatres across the street from each other in the same market where one has digital and one doesn't have digital," says Binning. "Three-to-six months, there's a blip in attendance. Thereafter, the dust settles and the numbers settle out again. It's not like people go, 'wow, I'm going to digital, it saved the world.' At the end of the day, Hollywood still has to put out a good product. Even if it looks good on the screen, if it's crap, people are not going."

-end of story-

-image follows-


 
Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-11-2008, 10:52 AM:
 
quote:
Right now there are detractors that say digital's not as good. That was largely true until about a year ago.
So what has changed since "about a year ago"? Are they talking about presentation or production?
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-11-2008, 01:05 PM:
 
quote:
"Whether you see No Country for Old Men on opening night or six months later, it's going to be crystal clear, as good-possibly better-than 35mm. Right now there are detractors that say digital's not as good. That was largely true until about a year ago. Digital is now every bit as good and, if you move into the 4k system, it's probably better than 35mm."
Uh oh. First it was Valenti, now we have a new nutbag forcing bullshit down people's throats at the MPAA. Clearly he (or his writers) have never been to a QUALITY theater.
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-11-2008, 01:50 PM:
 
quote:
"Disney-in their infinite wisdom-released Hannah Montana 3D and it was a monstrous success reaching $30 million on opening weekend with just a handful of screens,"
They always get me with this one. Granted it did a lot of business in that first week but dropped like a turkey in the remaining weeks. At $15 dollars a pop.

quote:
"You could probably outfit a traditional projector booth for $50,000�$60,000 if you're a good shopper," says Binning. "[For digital projection] you're looking at probably a minimum of $100,000 per booth-and that's if you aren't replacing the [cinema's] screen. The cost is almost double. Costs are much higher, not just the up-front cost, but the maintenance. The replacement bulbs for the projectors are rumoured to be about double. Upkeep is rumoured to be almost double. If you were spending a couple thousand a year in [general] maintenance, that's probably going to be $4,000�$5,000 a year."

When he says per booth does he mean per screen or the entire booth? If the latter where does he get his figures.
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-11-2008, 03:14 PM:
 
quote: Darryl Spicer
it did a lot of business in that first week but dropped like a turkey in the remaining weeks. At $15 dollars a pop
Well that's partly because it was heavily advertised as a two-week-only deal. I still am mystified why they didn't do some 2-D prints of that thing and do a quickie engagement in regular theatres. We still have people asking about why we didn't play it.
 
Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 04-11-2008, 09:43 PM:
 
quote:
"Here on campus, we had to mothball the old 35mm projectors last summer because they were too expensive to maintain," says Tepperman.
Huh? Give me a break.
Been abused for years, then couldn't afford to fix all the ill's at once??
 
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 04-11-2008, 10:12 PM:
 
quote: Mike Blakesley
Well that's partly because it was heavily advertised as a two-week-only deal. I still am mystified why they didn't do some 2-D prints of that thing and do a quickie engagement in regular theatres. We still have people asking about why we didn't play it.
I concur. I saw them selling it on DVD so clearly they don't care that much about it being 3D.
 
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-11-2008, 10:31 PM:
 
The end of film was predicted to be 5 to 7 years away in 1996, Digital was going to put an end of it. In 2000 the prediction was that film would be done in 5 to 7 years (hey it is 8 years film is still running though projectors). We have Mark Gulbrandsen on here saying that theaters that don't switch will done in 2 years. I don't know that I buy it.

Is digital better? Well it doesn't scratch and doesn't get damaged from heat but I'm sure it has some amount of quality loss in long run situations. Of course, we don't have long runs anymore. The quality isn't better than film and it can't (at this point) be blown up to the same size as film.

Is digital going to replace film. Someday, however, other than Mark.

Mark is of the opinion that if you don't agree with him on it you are 1. a dope head, 2. an idiot, 3. completely out of touch with reality.

The truth of the matter is no one knows how long film has left. No one knows if digital might not have a major problem that further delays it or technology that doesn't last or the upgrade necessary is just to fast for people to fund it.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-11-2008, 11:23 PM:
 
quote: Brad Miller
Clearly he (or his writers) have never been to a QUALITY theater.

Really! Where????? Not in this neck of the woods!
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-12-2008, 12:39 AM:
 
Hey, its not my fault Utahians don't know what they are doing. (You know Mark, you could give them some training so they don't suck. [Wink] )
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-12-2008, 09:40 AM:
 
quote: Chris Slycord
I saw them selling it on DVD so clearly they don't care that much about it being 3D.
I saw something on IMDB about the Blu-ray version of the Hannah Montana thing being in 3-D and having 4 pairs of 3-D glasses packed in the box with it. So much for 3-D being something you "can't get at home."
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-12-2008, 10:02 AM:
 
I can't begin to tell you how many training sessions I have conducted only to find a completely new crew on my next visit a couple of months later. The problem is the pay scale not the lack of training.

Mark
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-12-2008, 10:23 AM:
 
One of the ways TI is trying to buy DLP another year is by boasting 3D in the home. I believe it is mostly for gaming rather than for theatrical release.

http://www.dlp.com/hdtv/3-d_dlp_hdtv.aspx

Steve
 
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-12-2008, 11:34 AM:
 
Mark, training is one of the highest cost per new employee. Looks like your cheap owners are around you if they can't see a cost benefit to keeping you at home and the trained staff in the booth.

In most businesses you strive to keep turn over low to avoid the problems of breaking in new staff.

[ 04-12-2008, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: Ron Funderburg ]
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-12-2008, 12:10 PM:
 
quote: Ron Funderburg
In most businesses you strive to keep turn over low to avoid the problems of breaking in new staff.
Absolutely. So either the owners are paying shit wages (their fault), or the management is treating the projectionists like shit (again their fault). Too many people only look at the bottom line at the end of the day and don't realize they have thrown money out the window all in the name of being cheap.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-12-2008, 12:20 PM:
 
Brad... You hit the nail on the head!! Indeed they don't stop to think how much money they burn in the camp fire in order to keep paying shit wages.

There's Steve spreading rumors again... still with no data to back up what he is claiming. T.I. has been pushing that "Home 3-D" thing for almost two years now.

Mark
 
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-12-2008, 12:42 PM:
 
Yes Mark we have all noticed that a lot of tech's are eager to push their point of view with nothing to back them up.
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-12-2008, 01:17 PM:
 
quote: Mike Blakesley
I saw something on IMDB about the Blu-ray version of the Hannah Montana thing being in 3-D and having 4 pairs of 3-D glasses packed in the box with it. So much for 3-D being something you "can't get at home."
Chances are the "3D" on the Blu-ray version will just be the old anaglyphic type with red and cyan lenses. It won't be full color 3D like you can get in certain movie theaters.

There is no way to implement full color 3D on Blu-ray on any sort of mainstream basis. Such a thing would require specific, specialized monitors and maybe even the use of LCD shutter glasses to work really well. The thing Texas Instruments is promoting would only apply to certain DLP-equipped televisions. I wouldn't work on just any HDTV.
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-12-2008, 01:28 PM:
 
Here's the clip from the imdb.com site: Link

quote:
Disney's home video division said Wednesday that it will include 3-D glasses with each Blu-ray disc of Hannah Montana and Miley Cyrus: Best of Both Worlds Concert Tour, but it gave few details about the first 3-D release in the high-definition format. Although it said that four pairs of glasses would be included in the package, it did not indicate what sort of glasses these would be. (Some writers have suggested that they would resemble the primitive red/green glasses of the '50s that many folks complained gave them headaches.) Neither was there any indication whether the glasses would add to the wholesale price of the disks or how much it would cost to buy additional pairs.

 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-12-2008, 02:12 PM:
 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I can't begin to tell you how many training sessions I have conducted only to find a completely new crew on my next visit a couple of months later. The problem is the pay scale not the lack of training.

Mark

Couldn't agree with you more on that one. That's one reason why I never jumped on the trainer jobs when they offered them up. Even at the theatres I worked at I had trouble keeping them around. Train them two months or less later they were gone.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-12-2008, 07:09 PM:
 
Oooops Mark...sorry...you wanted some data eh?

There are loads out there...I guess you don't want to look at it but here is one:

quote:
Although TI never reveals sales figures for its digital light processor chips, public disclosures show the size of the problem. DLP revenue fell 21 percent from the third quarter of 2006 to the third quarter of 2007.

The entire decline stems from a single limitation of the 21-year-old invention: DLP is a projection technology, requiring space between chips and screens, so it won't work in the wafer-thin TVs that most Americans want.

The rest of article can be found here: http://www.contentagenda.com/articleXml/LN744464425.html?industryid=45197

There are others but the over 20% decline in DLP sales for the last calander year are pretty uniform. I've seen some articles that predict (admittedly speculation) that DLP sales will be down another 40% this year.

You are sticking your head in the sand to not even notice the ramifications of such a sales decline in a division. If Kodak saw those sort of sales drops in Motion Picture film sales, everyone would be using the "writing on the wall" expressions.

The fact that DLP is perceived as a cutting edge technology is what seems to have people hung up on the concept that it might have run its course. Also the fact that no other display technology (digital) seems to have what it has to offer at this time for some industries.

I don't know where you get your information from, Mark but it is certainly suspect as you probably are talking to people (if you are talking at all) that, just maybe, have a vested interest in the longevity of DLP...which is why you CAN'T trust TI for accurate information (nor those that have a financial stake at its success, like projector manufacturers) since they HAVE to put the BEST SPIN on the situation or just close up shop and admit defeat and lose sales immediately.

A quick search on my brother, Karl, would also give you some idea on the insights I might be able to gather on this sort of subject matter. But go ahead, spout your ingnorance.

Ron got this one right...the consumer market is what is driving DLP and that is the marking that is shrinking fast...not cinema, which is growing (at a near immeasurable rate). The only part of the consumer market that DLP is hanging onto is the over 50" to 60" groups. However...lesser cost (and argueably lesser quality) technologies like LCD keep taking market share away.

So what are you going to do IF DLP dies? Tell your customers to go back to those red readers you promoted (that you are now tell them to rip out...that was a great 5 or 10 year investment...that saved how much of the planet?)...oh wait, that is the anticipated life span of DCinema equipment you are promoting...hmmmm and the film projectors you like seem to need to need an upgrade kit every 5-10 years. Perhaps you just have accepted rebuying things every 5-10 years. At least you are consistant, I guess [uhoh]
 
Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 04-12-2008, 07:54 PM:
 
quote: Bobby Henderson
Chances are the "3D" on the Blu-ray version will just be the old anaglyphic type with red and cyan lenses. It won't be full color 3D like you can get in certain movie theaters.

You should check out the SENSIO 3-D site to see what's coming.

Sensio is a full-color 3-D system for home theaters. If it catches on, that's one advantage the theaters will lose.
 
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-12-2008, 08:09 PM:
 
Steve haven't you noticed that Mark is using the writing is on the wall? In several post here he says film is done in two years. I agree film is on the way out but again I don't know that anyone can predict when that end will be.
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-12-2008, 09:28 PM:
 
While film's global dominance in traditional markets has certainly erroded, there is no indication that it is on the way out for other markets. For archiving, it remains the only archival medium for motion picture...period...at least that is what the National Archives and the Library of Congress uses for the US stuff and it seems that Hollywood also uses film as the archival medium for even their born-digital features.

For theatres...it is pure speculation as to how long film has left. One thing I contend though is how long DLP has left too. Unlike film, which has several sources, still and could be made by others. DLP is a single source medium...ALWAYS a very risky state to bank on...especially in the semiconductor industry. How many products have met their end simply because the sole source of a piece of technology is no longer available. However, unlike say TTL technology that can be easily and quickly reproduced by other semiconductor manufacturers, DLP remains a difficult and low-yield technology that is very expensive to make...it takes a giant like TI to make it...which will make any other company's chance of making a go with it very small.

So if film is on the way out for exhibition...just what is going to replace it and whom are we to be beholden to for that?

My personal opinion is that the digital solution will not take the form of projection but more of the form of a screen that is its own light source like OLED. If Drive-Ins could switch to the technology that is used for bill-boards and sporting type videoboards, they would no longer have to compete with the SUN for when to operate their theatres. Those devices can be bright, even during the day time.

Steve
 
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 04-13-2008, 01:23 AM:
 
quote:
You should check out the SENSIO 3-D site to see what's coming.

Sensio is a full-color 3-D system for home theaters. If it catches on, that's one advantage tYou should check out the SENSIO 3-D site to see what's coming.

Well.

I visited that web site.

I saw NOTHING to describe just what it was that made their system so special. I saw nothing at all to suggest they would make it possible to deliver full color 3D movies to most types of HDTV monitors with little or no modification at all. The whole site merely sounded like a lot of blustering while delivering no specific details about their system.

I stand 100% by my prediction: be prepared to enjoy all the goodness of red and cyan lensed paper 3D glasses when opening that Hannah Montana 3D Blu-ray disc.

Full color 3D for home theater is NOT happening anytime soon at all. I have seen a lot, but nothing to suggest that full color 3D is on the horizon at all for home theater.
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-13-2008, 01:50 AM:
 
I found this info on that site. Looks like it is just projector based.

Sensiotm 3D

The first product derived from SENSIO®’s 6 years of research and development efforts is based on the SENSIO® 3D technology, a revolutionary digital video process allowing the broadcast and storage of stereoscopic (3D) movies for home viewing. The SENSIO® 3D processor transforms the conventional home theatre experience into a rich and immersive stereoscopic movie experience, which rivals with the best 3D movie theater and theme park experiences.

With our advanced registered technology real 3D movies at home is now reality. The SENSIO® 3D video processor is the only 3D home theatre system designed to work with conventional DVD players and CRT, LCD, DLP and D-ILA projectors. It is the only system that is MPEG-2 compliant, offering full-screen high resolution and full color 3D format, compatible with future distribution channels such as pay per view, video on demand, DTV and HDTV broadcast. The processor is a high-performance product that combines brilliant DVD image quality and perfectly calibrated 3D richness.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-13-2008, 07:21 AM:
 
Ron... Show me where I say film will be done in two years...

Steve... the article doesn't tell me anything I didn't already know. It does however make an important point to others here and that is too much time and effort is being wasted on the consumer end of marketing it. T.I.'s markleting people should have had the forsight to see what was comming in the flat panel realm but for what ever reason they were blind to that... Doesn't matter, they will now be forced to become even more creative in the use of the chips and that creativness is what will actually make it really shine. As for your bother... if he can provide us with some hard data then fine... please have him do so but I doubt that the is privy to it.

While I have no argument that the consumer end of DLP may come to an end some day and I could really care less about that end of things and you still have not presented any data to show that the industrial end of the DLP will ever cease any time soon. How about taking a look at T.I.'s annual report... isn't it on line? Strong's is on line and last I looked it wasn't exactly making them look Strong. More like squeaking by. But no matter what happens at Strong I suppose they will still be making stop lights and chicken cookers, perhaps they can supply a star or cam to those of us still repairing those few "special purpose" film projectors in ten years time.

Other manufacturers have also gotten stuck in the consumer rut in past years and decades.... Motorola probably being the best example with it's old Quassar TV line AND it's present really sucky Cell Phone Line up. That TV line and the plants were sold off to Matsushita and some of the locations still exist and produce Panasonic Televisions today... Motorola hasn't given up on the Cell Phones either in spite of worse off sales than DLP presents itself to be in. They keep opening up the creative doors and re-vamping the line... it still sucks for the most part but don't expect an American manufacturer like Motorola or T.I. to throw in the towel just that easy. So all I can say is that I'll believe it when T.I. announces it. None of your speculation is changing the way the big three are approaching the conversion nor is it going to. When those three have converted their largest share of the U.S. theater market over to digital those few required film prints are going to become very expensive to produce... so expensive that if a theater location is marginal or not profitable then they may be denied a print or that location may have to pay for it. It is this point in time which I have always been predicting is about 5 to 7 years away and that will be the end of large scale film dstribution as we all know it. Just ask anyone in the marketing departments of Kodak... They seem to have a marketing department that has the forsight to gear Kodak towards survival instead of departure. Kodak will indeed be and may already be producing more digital imaging stuff at this point in time than they are film. If that point hasn't been reached yet its not that far off.

quote: Steve Guttag
My personal opinion is that the digital solution will not take the form of projection but more of the form of a screen that is its own light source like OLED. If
I agree but not in either of our lifetimes will we get to see that on a large scale... although I'll further your comment by saying that probably in our lifetimes projectors will be laser based and Xenon will become extinct because of its high power consumption... that high power consumption in say 20 years will be totally unaceptable in a modern "Green" Society. The reson we won't be seeing the large screen flat displays in use on our lifetime for film theaters is because the studios are too deep into DLP and other projection technology and laser could actually fit right in with present DCI. IN reality for flat panels to happen it would take the studios the next 20 years just to accept it, then 10 more years to get it implemented so no one could hook on and record the signals, then another 10 to get it installed at all locations along with the normal dose of studio approved anti-pirating encryption security stuff.

Mark
 
Posted by Hillary Charles (Member # 769) on 04-13-2008, 08:19 AM:
 
quote: Bobby Henderson
Full color 3D for home theater is NOT happening anytime soon at all. I have seen a lot, but nothing to suggest that full color 3D is on the horizon at all for home theater.

Bobby,

I will agree that the Hannah Montana disc will most likely be anaglyph (however considering the content, the Pulfrich or Chromadepth method could work reasonably well), but I know people who have the Sensio setup and it is everything you say it can't be. IT IS!

These folks were big field-sequential 3D fans until Sensio came out, and they say it blows the old bootleg FS 3D out of the water.

Please check out this link. From the posted frame-grabs, you'll see the Sensio image is similar to side-by-side Stereovision (not sure how it's projected though). It also appears that for those slumming it, an anaglyph version is also encoded.

Now granted, like Darryl suggested, I don't believe it to be a system to play on a normal plasma or LCD screen, but the point is that despite your misgivings, here is a full-color 3D format that is INDEED being marketed for the home theater. And it's not just on the horizon, but ALREADY HERE, and people ARE using it.

EDIT: Apparently the Sensio system is becoming even more prevalent in the home market, according to this announcement:

"MONTREAL, Quebec, January 22, 2008 – SENSIO Technologies Inc. (“SENSIO”) (TSX Venture Exchange Inc.: SIO) once again distinguished itself at the 2008 Consumer Electronic Show (CES), where 3D enjoyed a much greater presence than usual with, among other things, the unveiling of different 3D televisions by various manufacturers. This being said, manufacturer interest for the SENSIO 3D technology is greater than ever. “Our SENSIO 3D presentation on a Blu-Ray player and a Mitsubishi 3D television clearly showed the quality and simplicity of the SENSIO 3D technology and attracted strong interest. But the highlight was unquestionably the unveiling of SpectronIQ’s 3D television, which integrates the SENSIO 3D technology, a first fully-integrated solution for consumers”, explains Nicholas Routhier, President and CEO."

[ 04-13-2008, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Hillary Charles ]
 
Posted by Tim Reed (Member # 137) on 04-13-2008, 10:19 AM:
 
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
the studios are too deep into DLP
The studios are deep into the FILMLESS concept. Whether it's via DLP or a self-illuminated screen is irrelevant. There's no reason a screen couldn't be fed the same signal from a server that a DLP projector is fed now. It would be up to the manufacturer of the screen to translate that - not the studios.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-13-2008, 12:41 PM:
 
Tim... the server of course would be universal thats a given thing. How a server decodes, encrypts or decrypts and so on is merely a fuinction of add on boards and software. However... Number one... the technology just doesn't exist at the moment to do it with really large screens... And Number two... the Studios would have to accept it which will in itself take a very long time. Number three... the screen itself would have to be DCI compliant in and of itself. All in all it wouild take well into our kids lifetimes to see this happen. Laser based projectors will indeed come first and are far more adaptable to even the current JPEG 20000 standard.

Mark
 
Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 04-13-2008, 01:48 PM:
 
On 3D in the home, if you read here DLP 3D page it looks like 3D DLP TV uses shutter glasses that are controlled from a port on 3D enabled DLP TV - and it is full color; sounds like any other 120Hz TV could be compatible with the right king of player.

Though I would guess that Hannah Montana 3D DVD will be anaglyph, especially since each copy supposedly comes with glasses.
 
Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 04-13-2008, 10:20 PM:
 
Mark raised a valid point about the waste created by Xenons.

I wonder how long we can continue to justify 30-screen multis burning 3K lamps when about 30 hours a week they are illuminating empty houses. Add to this the aircon load and our forests have to work overtime.

LED screens or lasers might be forced on the industry by environmental considerations.

If it is to be lasers, can’t we have holograms?
 
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-14-2008, 11:06 AM:
 
quote: Ron Curran
If it is to be lasers, can’t we have holograms?
And a jet pack! [Wink]
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-15-2008, 08:10 AM:
 
Kreosene will be at least $42.00 a gallon by then Martin!
 
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-15-2008, 12:48 PM:
 
One jet liner cause far more damage than one theater. What bout the 1,000 of flights they make a day? Are environmentally concerns slowing air travel?
 
Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 04-15-2008, 01:24 PM:
 
what about everytime they launch the space shuttle.
 
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 04-15-2008, 01:48 PM:
 
The space program has always striven to have a positive impact on the environment. The bi-product of the main engines is water vapor or more exactly steam. The primary fuel of the two external solid rocket engines is aluminum I'm sure their is some negative impact from this but it must be negligible as people are within a mile of the shuttle when it takes off.
 
Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-15-2008, 02:48 PM:
 
quote: Ron Funderburg
I'm sure their is some negative impact from this but it must be negligible as people are within a mile of the shuttle when it takes off.

Yah, and they were sure that the impact of the fallout from the A-Bomb testing on those soldiers who they placed a mile away from the test site would be negligible too. [Eek!] The heavy-duty sunglasses that they gave them were very helpful.
 
Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-18-2008, 07:47 PM:
 
People do not like change. I for one, really don't care about digital, however if it turns out to be the take over that people say it will be then so be it. We can't change what will happen. I mean I love film, and will take 35 mm over digital any day. I still think film will be around a lot longer then most predict. I think it will be well into the next 20 years common place. However After that I think it will fade slowly.

This is all just my opinion, I have nothing to back it up, but hey look at LP's (I love my LP's!) they are still around and some companies still make and support them... Look at Vacuum tubes, most Guitarist prefer them over component. For my upright Bass I use an old Altec tube PA driving an old 15" Altec woofer, people I know envy my setup.

Over the years there have been mainstays. LPs IMO are mainstays, and CD’s are mainstays, but look at 8-tracks, cassettes, VHS, BetaMAX, MD, DAT... (Well VHS, was on a roll for a while but DVD took over). Some of these listed are still used, but to a much lesser extent.

I think Digital will take over as the new medium or most used format, and 35 mm will be around as a mainstay for years and years, and maybe 70 mm will still be around just a little.

I don't think the LP is going away, why would 35 mm!

Michael Moore
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-19-2008, 07:55 AM:
 
quote:
I don't think the LP is going away, why would 35 mm!

The LP has gone away except for small numbers being made in certain places today. It is actually fairly easy to set up and operate an LP mastering center and a few presses. 35mm will do the same thing because it costs a ton of money to operate the labs to process it once required numbers of prints drops off the labs will cease pringint/processing operations, its dam expensive to run a lab of any decent size!. Once Digital reaches a certain saturation point very few film prints will be struck, mainly only for locations that can produce good return because the per print price will become astronomical. Stop and think Michael... some of the larger lab entities are already branching out into digital prints and distribution, etc. They see what is comming too. Another thing that may have an impact on 35mm is the price of oil.

Mark
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 05-19-2008, 09:22 AM:
 
The comparison of vinyl records and 35mm film is a bit of a stretch. Records have always been a mass-market consumer good. There are enough collectors and vinyl junkies left to sustain it as a niche market, even with the price of new records at $15 and up (mostly up). Which, if you compare to CD, isn't really all that high.

What is the market for 35mm film? Theaters. It's not a consumer-driven good. There are (basically) no collectors of movies, since (ahem) 35mm prints are not for sale and freely available. The supply of old prints is very tightly controlled. No free market forces. When 35mm becomes a niche market, as it will, why would distributors spend $6000 or more to produce a print? Could a handful of theaters reject digital and hold out with film forever while paying substantially higher rental fees to cover the cost of prints? Doubtful, unless they're being operated by a deep-pockets film lover who is not in the business to make money.
 
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-19-2008, 03:41 PM:
 
Alternative viewpont: film will be around forever in some form. It is possible to buy standard 8mm, super-8mm, and 9.5mm camera film today, despite zero support from camera manufacturers for the last decade or so. Photography did not replace painting and I do not expect electronic imaging to replace film. It is possible to manufacture film, film cameras, and film projectors on a small scale with relatively simple technology. If Kodak and Fuji go away tomorrow, there will be someone making film stock in his basement somewhere. It may not be "mainstream," but it will exist.

Also consider that, for limited releases and reissues, a handful of prints even at $6k each is cheaper than the $100k (or thereabouts) cost of scanning an interpositive and producing a digital master. (Does anyone know if this cost has come down lately or is expected to do so in the future?)

As for the mainstream side of the industry, consider that only one major chain (Carmike) has made a serious commitment to [dlp] at this point. AccessIT is in tough financial shape and probably won't turn out to be a viable business over the long term. DCIP has done nothing substantive to date (and it's led by the guy who ran Loews into the ground, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their success). The US economy is not yet in a recession, but the possibility seems likely. All indications are that the US screen count will go down in the next few years, possibly significantly, as gas prices rise and alternative forms of entertainment proliferate. All of these factors may combine to delay the widespread adoption of [dlp] for several more years, at least.

I don't know the situation outside the US, but I suspect that the 35mm infrastructure will be even more difficult to replace. (Maybe someone else can comment here.)

I don't doubt that film will go away eventually as a mainstream exhibition format, but I don't see it happening in the 2-5 years that people keep predicting. I would tend to guess that we have at least another decade of film as a mainstream format and quite possibly longer.

Unfortunately, I would also expect that the quality of release prints will generally decline as [dlp] quality improves, eventually negating any quality advantage that 35mm now has. [Frown]

Having said that, if 3D and/or "alternative content" really take off and prove to have long-term staying power (both unknowns), I could see a faster move to [dlp] .
 
Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 05-19-2008, 04:28 PM:
 
I've heard a forcast that film distribution has 10-15 years left "mainstream".

I think actual release print quality may get better - i.e. lower volume, more expensive production **may** lead to increased quality since the labs won't be under a tight schedule to produce thousands of prints.

quote: Scott Norwood
Also consider that, for limited releases and reissues, a handful of prints even at $6k each is cheaper than the $100k (or thereabouts) cost of scanning an interpositive and producing a digital master. (Does anyone know if this cost has come down lately or is expected to do so in the future?)
I heard someone quote a number of $50K, but I'm not sure if that is jpeg2K packaging from a DI or jpeg2K from film.

Alternate content is not proving as viable as originally touted - a significant source is restricted (i.e. sporting events). I did hear that Landmark has done some live 3D Maverick games, but what will the attendance be like when every theatre in town is showing games at the same time? We should stick to what we know works - movies . . . . then value add other movie like content - i.e. digital could allow smaller niche film makers to exhibit their content on the big screen with minimal extra expense (all they need is a good source that outputs DVI or HD-SDI and they can plug directly into the projector)

quote: Scott Norwood
(and it's led by the guy who ran Loews into the ground, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence in their success).
Actually the merger with Cineplex Odeon brought about the Loews bankruptcy - this guy was also part of the team that brought Loews out of bankruptcy (and he wasn't President/CEO until after the assets were bought by Onex).
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-19-2008, 07:06 PM:
 
About 150K for scanning a 40 min. 15/70 at 4K rez. I know of someone having one done as I type this. Almost all films except perhaps low budget types are scanned anyway today. Its more or less automatically done because of digital prints

Mark
 
Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-20-2008, 07:33 AM:
 
quote: David Zylstra
Alternate content is not proving as viable as originally touted - a significant source is restricted (i.e. sporting events). I did hear that Landmark has done some live 3D Maverick games, but what will the attendance be like when every theatre in town is showing games at the same time?
I think everybody knew this would be the case and that the alternate content thing was just marketing BS from the people pushing digital cinema. It's great for a small incremental increase in customers on a tuesday night but it isn't going to do anything near what movies do as far as grosses go.

On the Mavericks games at Landmark, it helps to get rights when the same guy owns the team as the theatre chain.

The ONLY thing digital cinema delivers that can't be delivered by current 35mm projectors is 144 Hz, triple flash 3D. Of course the same polarizing technology (or color filter in dolby's case) can be applied to 35mm and a similar (or better) quality 3D can be produced.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-20-2008, 08:05 AM:
 
quote: Lyle Romer
I think everybody knew this would be the case and that the alternate content thing was just marketing BS from the people pushing digital cinema.
Lyle, You must be living in a cave! In fact the opera broadcasts that are run in many cities do sell out buisness with some sell outs in cities you'd never think anyone would attend! They are also now in the process of expanding the broadcasts and adding new locations, content. D-Cinema is but a few years old... film didn't offer much when it was the same age and comparatively D-Cinema is offering far more after just a few short years than film ever did. The best part about D-Cinema is that its guaranteed to keep people like you living in the cave [thumbsup] .

Mark
 
Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 05-20-2008, 08:31 AM:
 
The live operas had a good first year splash - I hear this year attendance is dropping; still well attended, but not as good as last year (according to a friend of mine who manages a location that did the Met last year and this year)

Currently the operas from the Met are limited to a few sites in each market - what happens if we double the number of locations showing them in each market? Personally I think the current attendance will just get spread thinner. A few other companies are putting out recorded operas (we have 3 sources for them) that are doing OK business - attendance is growing but still barely equal to our slowest films.

I think the alternate content we need is live sporting events, access to some TV content (i.e. final American Idol episode), gaming and live operas/ballets/stage plays; but again - what happens when every theatre in town is showing the same alternate content?

With digital cinema there will be easier access for young, indie filmmakers to exhibit their content - i.e. i they usually go straight to DVD why not premier the latest movie on the big screen before the DVD release? (we've done some of these with great success)
 
Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 05-20-2008, 10:39 AM:
 
quote:
Lyle, You must be living in a cave! In fact the opera broadcasts that are run in many cities do sell out buisness with some sell outs in cities you'd never think anyone would attend!
I'm not living in a cave and your statement makes my point. An opera might sell out ONE show every once in a while. If you showed the opera 5 shows a day all week it wouldn't sustain the business and to David's point, if the opera showed at all theaters in an area, none of them would do very well with the business spread out.

We did a TON of business on the Hannah Montana 3D thing at one of our locations but then U2 did nothing. Last week we had a Josh Groban concert that also did very little (but it did more than the film we cancelled for it would have done on a Thursday night).

The D-Cinema pushers market alternative content like it is going to revolutionize the business when in reality it is just an evolution of the business.

NOW, if 4k production/projection would take hold so that the theater could be sold as having much better image quality than the home then it might revolutionize the business. I've never seen 4k but based on how good 2k digital projection does look I dare say that 4k produced movies projected in 4k would look better than 99% of 35mm does (even places doing film done right).
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-20-2008, 11:32 AM:
 
Lyle,

Its interesting that you think what you do. For the last NAB Convention in Vegas Sony had produced a very costly 4K 3-D demo film to run on their new VW Bus sized 4K 3-D projector. Sony couldn't get it to run so it was run on the Christie 2K 3-D stacked system that was sitting right next to Sony's equipment. No one at NAB except the Christie folks and Sony knew it ran in 2K on Christie's gear and no one at NAB that waas expecting to see a 4K presentation complained! A couple of weeks ago I had the opportunity to run D-Cinema on an 82X60 foot screen from 4K 15/70 scans. Not only was the image from the single CP-2000S twice as bright than the existing (and aging Iwerks) 15/70 system the digital image was also prefered by the people whom were also very familiar with the 15/70 film that attended the demo. Needless to say the film system is going bye-bye!

Personally I wouldn't waste my time seeing most of the live broadcast stuff. Some of the opera stuff perhaps but so far they haven't offered anything of my interest and t sounds like the same story for those in your area. But overall most of it does very well.

Mark
 
Posted by Ron Funderburg (Member # 4561) on 05-27-2008, 02:43 PM:
 
Opera, oh dear God save me from having to sit though opera every again!
 
Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 06-09-2008, 12:18 PM:
 
Did my semi-annual opposition research this weekend and saw Iron Man at the Rave Festival theatre here. Gotta say, totally underwhelmed by the digital projection (Christie/AccessIT). Yes, even illumination and steady picture with no dirt or scratches, but the picture was underlit, the depth of focus was shallow and the colors flat. No pop to it at all.

Worse, there was perceptible color fringing, especially in high contrast situations. Jeff Bridges head looked like someone outlined it with a fine point red pen. The average moviegoer may not notice it specifically, but they would probably detect subliminally that something is wrong.

I can't believe at the beginning of the summer season they are running with old bulbs, so maybe this is the way it looks all the time. I'll admit is was brighter than the last film I saw there in 35mm, but not too much. I don't have a light meter, but if they are getting 16fl, I must be getting 20fl on my screen.

And their pre-show infotainment was shown on some crappy video projector with source material that looked like VHS. Love the scanlines guys. On the plus side, the sound was too low to hear.

Just some observations from the Real World, Southern Division;>
 
Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 06-09-2008, 04:15 PM:
 
There may be some out there that are not sticking to proper standards and set the light level too low in an attempt to economize (14FL is the standard for digital, I've heard some say they think 10FL is good enough, present company excluded of course).

Sounds like at this particular venue any content (digital or 35mm) may be compromised.

I'll watch Iron Man again at my place to see if I can detect the color fringing you saw around Jeff Bridges' head - I don't remember seeing any issues the first time.

[ 06-09-2008, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: David Zylstra ]
 




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