Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: DVD Projection?

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Posted by Ron Davis (Member # 4124) on 05-02-2008, 02:16 PM:

As a small theatre, we often show older movies to try to boost revenue. But, with the rising gas prices, our film delivery costs have also risen sometimes to the point where delivery costs more than the licensing fee.

We've started thinking about showing some of these events using strictly DVD projection but haven't had alot of luck finding a product that can throw the image 65 feet and still keep it as bright as we need it to be. We currently use cheap LCD projectors to do our pre-show ads and what not, but they just lack the quality we are looking for if we were to charge full price for a movie.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks much!

-Ron

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-02-2008, 02:42 PM:

We, as well as many other, I'm sure, supply quite a number of theatres with video projectors that can do DVDs justice in the theatre environment.

The problem likely will be that you do not wish to spend as much for such a projector. They are not really that expensive but if you are used to cheap projectors...they are more than that.

You will need to get into the type of projectors that interchangable lenses and they do tend to cost more than the ones with just the one lens permanently mounted.

I also strongly recommend that you get a 16:9 native projector. Stay away from single chip projectors (DLP or otherwise)...go for 3-chip models...some people find the rainbow affect down right nausiating.

It is also normally advisable to have a scaler on the DVD player to make it look more worthy of theatrical presentation....sure 480 will never have great resolution but one can normally eek out a bit more of what is there with the better quality stuff. However, the projector's built-in scalers seem to be getting better an better and now often are aware of how to deal with 4:3, 16:9 and Letterboxed forms of source material.

Your screen size (not throw) will dictate the lumen requirement. You don't necessarily want to go too bright as you will find that the black levels just aren't there you have grey instead. Then again, you don't want your whites to look grey either! I target 12-14fL and things tend to look pretty decent.

Given all of the above...there still isn't a good sub for a film presentation...DVDs will look like DVDs...perhaps Blu-Ray, once the catalogs become a bit more universal, will help narrow that gap.

Steve

Note too, if you buy such a machine, it can also be your preshow ad projector too.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 05-02-2008, 05:06 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag

...perhaps Blu-Ray, once the catalogs become a bit more universal, will help narrow that gap.

I've stopped buying BluRay altogether for theatrical presentations. The picture looks great, but the sound formats are all over the map and poorly documented. I got burned on Ice Age which only has a DTS track for English. The DMA8 couldn't handle that, and I wound up having to run home and grab my DVD copy.

I have to say, I am surprised by how good standard def dvd looks run through our scaler.

Posted by Ron Davis (Member # 4124) on 05-02-2008, 05:09 PM:

Thanks for the info Steve! Just out of curiosity, what is the ball-park range we are looking at, price wise? The distance from our booth to our screen is about 63 feet and our screen dimensions are: 25' wide by 11' 6" high. Also, where would be a good web resource to compare makes/models/options?

Also, what is a 'DVD scaler'? As it stands now, we use our cheapy LCD projector and Laptop to do our DVD movies and we use the laptop to scale the movies to the size we need. Are there actual DVD players that can do the same function?

Thanks much!

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 05-02-2008, 11:52 PM:

Mike,

Pick up a fairly cheap home-grade receiver with pre-outs for all channels to help in a pinch. I've had to do this at a number of special screenings and it works like a champ. Also, many of the blu-ray players have discreet analog outputs that are compatible with most formats.

Just an idea.

Scaler-wise, be weary of some of the cheap ones out there, as they will case interference and have distortion. This doesn't always hold true. I've got Gefen 1080p scalers installed on all of our CP2K projectors and they work great. Picture quality isn't much worse than our Cine-IPM. The Gefen scalers cost around 250 bucks.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-04-2008, 11:02 PM:

For a screen of that size...I would be looking for something in the 3000-4000 lumen range. You'd need 3300 lumens to hit 14fL...but note, most manufactures base their lumen rating on their fastest lens in its fastest position...which may or may not be the lens you will need! In fact, the longer lenses (as used in theatres) will typically NOT be the fastest lens.

For a 3000 lumen machine with a long lens...(your throw ratio on a 16:9 projector is about 3.18) is likely going to be putting you over the $5K mark and closer to $6K. For a 4000 lumen projector...it will likely be over $8K with the lens and if you want HDCP compliance (a good idea if you are planning on Blu-Ray, Cable or Satellite in HD) then factor in a bit more.

For scalers...we often make use of the Extron DVS 304 ...but it would only apply for for the SD sources like conventional DVDs. We normally have the scaler handle aspect ratio conversions too.

Steve

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 05-05-2008, 12:27 AM:

quote: Mike Olpin
I've stopped buying BluRay altogether for theatrical presentations. The picture looks great, but the sound formats are all over the map and poorly documented. I got burned on Ice Age which only has a DTS track for English. The DMA8 couldn't handle that, and I wound up having to run home and grab my DVD copy.

What kind of Blu-ray player are you using, and what kind of connection is being used to send the audio?

Certain Blu-ray players have internal decoding and analog output of lossless and uncompressed PCM surround audio formats. Some can internally decode the various formats and output them as multi-channel PCM over HDMI connections.

The DTS XD-10 can also decode the home version of DTS and DTS-ES. I don't know if it can handle the two DTS-HD formats. If a Blu-ray player with complete internal decoding and analog audio outputs can be connected to a theater's sound system it would be a good work-around on the DTS-HD issue.

Posted by Ron Davis (Member # 4124) on 05-05-2008, 06:54 PM:

So I would not only need a projector and tele-lens, but also a scalar?

Posted by Ron Davis (Member # 4124) on 05-06-2008, 06:38 PM:

Or could we perhaps just buy a scaler and not worry with the tele-zoom lens?

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-06-2008, 07:12 PM:

As Steve mentioned, DVD playback on a typical theater-sized screen is going to look pretty crude at only 480 scan lines. A good scaler can multiply the DVD's 480 lines up to the vertical pixel count of your projector and produce a smoother looking picture.

The same thing in reverse will occur when you get around to projecting Blu-ray. If you're using a cheaper projector that doesn't have native 1920x1080 resolution, the scaler will map the Blu-ray image down to whatever size your projector can handle.

Scaling doesn't generally lend itself to cheap solutions since there is a lot of calculating and processing going on when mapping one pixel array to another. In other words, you get what you pay for.

Sometimes the scalers built in to the playback or projection equipment may produce satisfactory results. You'll have to try various combinations of what you have to see what produces the best results. But those built-in scalers are cheap and may not produce acceptable results even when working at their best. It is often operationally easier to go with a separate scaler and get better pictures to boot.

Zoom lenses are a necessity with digital projection for now, since no one that I know of is making sets of primes for digital machines yet. You'll need a zoom lens to fit your projector's best pixel array to your screen and throw.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-07-2008, 12:29 AM:

What you "need" is the projector with a suitable lens and the DVD player...the Scaler may make you system better and more flexible.

As I said, the projector's internal scaling seem to be getting better and better. Then again, outboard scalers seem to also be getting better and better for any give price piont.

Steve

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 05-07-2008, 12:21 PM:

Nobody mentioned it, but I've always assumed that digital keystone correction is another reason to prefer the onboard scaler...

--jhawk

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-07-2008, 12:51 PM:

Digital keystone correction is something I try to avoid using altogether. Unless things have really improved recently, I've yet to see an internal scaler that didn't greatly muck up the image when keystone correction was applied. Instead I level the machine and use lens shift as much as possible.

Posted by Ron Davis (Member # 4124) on 05-07-2008, 05:16 PM:

Can anyone recommend a particular make/model projector? Thanks.

Posted by Justin Hinerman (Member # 4163) on 05-09-2008, 01:01 PM:

Are the Mitsubishi projectors any good?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-12-2008, 12:18 AM:

quote: Ron Davis
we often show older movies to try to boost revenue

Not to throw a wrench in this interesting machinery, but if one thinks on DVD presentations to the public, you can't charge admits due to private (home use) showing licenses associated with DVD sales.

If studios ever caught wind that you were charging admits for DVD's public presentations licensed for home use....I'd hate to see the results..

Thus, you can still sell conc items, but no selling tix for your DVD shows ..

Posted by Ron Davis (Member # 4124) on 05-12-2008, 08:47 AM:

Actually, we have arrangements with some of the various studios to make sure this is all on the up and up. There are certain rules we have to follow (cant show any menus or other parts of the dvd), but its treated basically like a 35mm rental.

So, if we can get more of our older 'Classic' titles on DVD instead of 35mm, we'll save a ton just on delivery costs alone.

Thanks!

Posted by Carl Martin (Member # 1146) on 05-12-2008, 01:46 PM:

i can't believe anyone would consider this an acceptable practice. you charge people money for this? to watch a dvd??

i hope you at least advertise it as being video.

Posted by Paul H. Rayton (Member # 1817) on 05-12-2008, 04:22 PM:

We ran a print this past weekend -- probably "the" print -- of the famous movie, "My Fair Lady". This particular print was made in 1994 and has been through the mill since that time. It was a total disgrace, with about every kind of flaw you can name, and the distributor (Hollywood Classics) should be ashamed -- although they probably aren't.

In cases like this, I'm coming to the point of endorsing showing DVDs, more particularly HiDef/Blu-Ray DVDs, because the sound will be good, the image good (since we have a top-of-the-line video projector), and the scratches and splices and burns are all gone.

Why do people go out to see a particular movie, esp. not first run stuff? In most cases, it's to "see the movie", not necessarily to admire the show because "it's a film print". And, based on the good quality that they are able to achieve on the increasingly-better home systems, their tolerance for sh*tty prints gets lower by the week.

If anyone out there has played this print of "MFL", you'll really know what I mean. (It has a number of "#21" on it, but I'm sure there are few, if any, other prints in circulation).

Posted by Michael Moore (Member # 3867) on 05-14-2008, 07:37 PM:

Back in October we were approached by Sony and WHYY to mount a sony 4K projector in our theatre for opera simalcasts, and we were going to use it in between opera presentations for DVD and Digtal content such as the film festival we host. Sony came, took measurements, worked up the figures and did not get back with us. The projector was going to provided for free as well as all the technical help we wanted. But if just did not work out... I wonder if you can strike a similar deal?

At this time we use a cheap DLP 3000 lumen projector for our film festival, however we project from balcony; 30 feet from the screen. our booth is 91 feet away.

mike

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 05-15-2008, 03:07 AM:

The WD2000 is a good unit. It has a range of (expensive) lenses available. Like all non-cinema-based projectors, it has some annoying habits in a commercial situation. But brightness and image quality are excellent from quality files.