Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: D5 Projection

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Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 10-14-2008, 10:50 AM:

I apologize if I am ignorant about this subject and have posted this in the wrong forum (I have already pretty much been called ignorant by someone from a major studio starting with a W), if I have please move it accordingly.

I got an email to book a press screening for a film that could only be played in the D5 format. I have never heard of this format before so I told them that I didn't have the capabilities but I know that a few theatres in town had the capability of showing Digital, Reel D, etc. (assuming that it was probably some sort of digital projection). The woman from the advertising company then contacted EVERY theatre chain in the city to see if they had these capabilities, no of them do. She then contacted the studio to tell them this and that she had a bunch of different formats she could book in and if one of those happened to be D5 then she could book it. We both received a rather rude email indicating that everyone in the city needed to "educate themselves" on this format. So here I am. Can someone help me out? I've been doing this business for 5 years now and I have never heard of D5.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 10-14-2008, 11:13 AM:

D-5 is a digital videotape format that can hold standard or high-definition video. You should be able to rent a D-5 HD deck and connect it to your projector with HD-SDI.

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 10-14-2008, 11:15 AM:

So is it similar to Beta, DigiBeta, BetaSP, etc?

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 10-14-2008, 11:27 AM:

D5 is a not widely used digital cassette format. Note that there are different flavors of D5, each not compatible with each other. For example there is D5 standard definition and D5-HD, which itself has serveral variations. You will need a playback deck that is compatible with the format the tape is recorded in. Check out this link for more information.

I suppose I am confused as to what you are trying to screen. Is this a commercial film? You will not find it in D5 format anywhere. Is this an independent film (video) project? If so, then why are you trying to obtain it from a studio?

My suggestion is that rather than go down this road, you inform them of what formats, film and video, that your theatre supports and leave it too them to convert it.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 10-14-2008, 11:28 AM:

Yes, in that it's a professional video format. Find out what format the tape is in (is it 1920x1080 consumer HD or 2k?), then contact your local broadcast/production rental house and they should be able to take care of you.

Mitchell: It sounds like he's been contacted to book a press screening at his venue.

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 10-14-2008, 11:30 AM:

Mitchell,

This is a commercial film being distributed by a major studio. I'm a bit perplexed as to why they are only doing press screenings using this format as I know for a fact that they will be distributing it in 35mm. We usually do about 3-5 press/trade screenings a week and this is the first time EVER I have heard a studio requesting this format.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 10-14-2008, 11:33 AM:

It sounds like he's been contacted to book a press screening at his venue.

That is what is confusing me. If they are supplying the film/tape, why does he need to contact the studio for a copy. If he needs to obtain the copy from the studio, why not just book it in a standard format? If the film is not finished, the studio is not going to send out elements in a non-standard format.

Again, notify the studio that you are holding the press screening and find out what formats the film can be booked in. The "press" people are probably clueless as to the technical aspect of the show.

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 10-14-2008, 11:38 AM:

Mitchell,

Just to clarify, when called and ask if they could book this particular press screening at our venue they asked if we could screen it in D5 as it is the only format that they will be doing press screenings on. So since my theatre nor ANY theare in city is able to do this none of the press in this city will see the film before it comes out.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 10-14-2008, 11:38 AM:

D-5 is a standard post-production format, but it sounds like this "advertising" person referred to is either crazy or clueless.

Posted by Patrick Matthews (Member # 2705) on 10-14-2008, 11:41 AM:

Ok I feel like we are going in circles here or perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

Studio contacts Ad Agency to book screening.
Ad Agency forwards me the email asking if we have the date available and if we can screen in D5.
I reply to Ad Agency saying no we can't and that she would need to check with other theatres in the city.
Ad Agency emails Studio back with note that no one in the city is capable of playing that format.
Studio replies saying that since no one in the city knows of the format nor can play it that it can't be screened for the press in this city.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-14-2008, 11:52 AM:

Most likely your tape will be at a data rate of 1080 / 23.98psf with a track set-up of L/R/C/Sub/LS/RS from the XLR's on the back of the deck.
In Post=Production we do alot of D5 screenings and HD-CAM SR and HD-CAM too. Most post-houses format the D5 screening tapes at 23.98PSF, but it can be 24P or 59.94 too. Above is the standard track layout for channels 1-6 with sometimes an LT/RT on tracks 7 & 8.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-14-2008, 11:56 AM:

Do D5 decks do 3:2 pulldown internally, or does a 23.98PsF tape require a projector that can display the format natively?

I've never seen a D5 deck and, to my knowledge, none are available for rent in the Boston area.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 10-14-2008, 12:39 PM:

Again, I suggest you get yourself out of the middle of this. Inform the add agency of what film/video formats you can support. It is then between them and the studio to figure this out. If the studio's choice is not to hold a press screening, then that is their choice.

I tend to agree with Scott. Outside of major production cities, you are unlikely to find a D5 deck for rent.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-14-2008, 01:12 PM:

In most areas the D-5 deck rents anywhere from $1000-$1400 a day.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-14-2008, 01:23 PM:

quote: Patrick Matthews
...We both received a rather rude email indicating that everyone in the city needed to "educate themselves" on this format....AND.....Studio replies saying that since no one in the city knows of the format nor can play it that it can't be screened for the press in this city.

I'd tell them to go pound sand. I am more than willing to help out and accomodate a studio's request when they act in a civil manner. Get rude with me and you can go play your crap elsewhere. [fu]

THEY are the ones who need to educate themselves on what formats are readily available to the average cinemas and if no theatres in the city can accept the format, then THEY need to provide a copy in a format that can be shown!! It would be no trouble at all for them to author a standard DVD for the press screenings, if they weren't so lazy or stupid.

Edited to add: And if they insist on playing it in D5 then it's their responsibility to rent the deck for the screening!!

Another example of how the stupidity of the studios is gonna bring this industry down.. [sex]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-14-2008, 01:50 PM:

quote: Patrick Matthews
I'm a bit perplexed as to why they are only doing press screenings using this format as I know for a fact that they will be distributing it in 35mm.

We do many press screenings a week, sometimes up to 6 a day. For the fact sometimes thats the only format available before the prints are struck. We get all formats to run from 35mm composite to 35mm track & picture to Digi-Beta, DV-Cam, D-5, HD-Cam, HD-Cam SR. The studios now send out D-5's or HD-Cam's as preview/market research screening formats. When in the old days it was a 35mm Track & Picture show.

Posted by Ed Mauger (Member # 4813) on 10-14-2008, 02:07 PM:

Hi Patrick and others,
Maybe this should be seen as an opportunity to increase income rather than a hassle? Showing a press show on HD-D5 or HD-Cam SR is the digital equivalent to running 35mm sep-mag in the past if the film is not yet finished. Whether people like it or not, this is what the studios are doing now, and we might as well know how to do it!

These type of shows/previews happen all the time in the UK, and the distributor always picks up the costs of the deck hire, engineer and cinema hire charge. All cinemas with a digital projector can run these formats, and if your cinema is the only one prepared to say yes in the city, it could be very lucrative and interesting in the long term.

The digital projector head can only process a progressive scan properly. If the frequency is 23.98, 24 or 25 Hz, it can be connected straight to the projector head. If the HD-D5 tape is 59.94Hz, then it is either shot for television, or it has been encoded with 3:2 pull-down (3 fields of one frame, then 2 field of the next, etc), probably with the intention of a DVD release. In this case, you cannot connect directly to the projector head - it cannot decode this correctly. The projector processing will glue every pair of fields together, and you'll end up with very bad juddering motion. For this you'll need to connect via a Cine-IPM or similar.

The sound maybe layed out differently to the standard cinema server way, but you can change this in a Dobly DMA-8, or on the deck.

Be warned, recognising these formats and changing settings on the deck are not always obvious!

So, say "yes" to the hire, find an HD-D5 deck, but I would hire an engineer at least for the 1st time.

P.S. I can hear all the cries of "traitor" in the background [evil]

I'd much rather they could strike a 70mm print for you, but I don't think they will!

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-14-2008, 02:52 PM:

Hi Ed, I don't think anyone here would call you a traitor by any means, you have the correct viewpoint of how these screenings can be more of an asset rather than a hassle.

The issue and why Patrick was compelled to start a thread has to do with the pissy attitude the studio has had about this. They EXPECTED every cinema in that town to have D5 capability at their beck and call, and they adopted the childish position of "If you can't do it then you can't have our screening" when they were informed that the cinemas didn't have the equipment at hand.

My own experiences with most studios has been positive, if I didn't have the deck or hi-def projector they wanted then THEY would provide it AT THEIR EXPENSE. None of this "You got to get it and you're on your own" crap.

I think this whole mess is due to one misinformed sap at the studio, and not necessarily the overall attitude of the studio (I hope.)

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 10-14-2008, 05:54 PM:

D5 is a Painsonic, or ah Panasonic format. Painasonic does not have a good track record with tape formats (M, MII, D3 etc) so good luck finding one. It was an SD-SDI (standard def serial component digital) that Painasonic added some compression to to be able to record HD-SDI. Sony's HD CAM, and HD CAM SR are much more popular.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-14-2008, 06:11 PM:

In the studio screening world they use D-5's more than the others. We are starting to see a few more HD-Cam SR's screenings but not by much.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-14-2008, 06:28 PM:

Good luck trying to rent a D5 deck outside of NYC and LA, though. (The original poster might be able to get one in Chicago.)

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-16-2008, 01:59 PM:

quote:
Showing a press show on HD-D5 or HD-Cam SR is the digital equivalent to running 35mm sep-mag in the past if the film is not yet finished. Whether people like it or not, this is what the studios are doing now, and we might as well know how to do it!

Also, when you think about it, it's clear that current post-production "workflow" practices must make viewing material on film (until the release print stage) almost impossible.

If most everything today is DI then the material will exist only in digital form all through the post-production process. They won't ever cut the neg and release prints will only be made from internegs that are made from the DI filmouts.

So trying to make a work / preview print must be prohibitively costly (albeit depending on the studio / distributor involved) as it would have to be a one-off from the DI file.

And, if prints are made just before the release date (as is common today) that would also explain why, in this case, no prints appear to be physically available for (advance) press shows.

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-16-2008, 02:16 PM:

For Market Research screenings they use the D-5 or HDCam-SR formats most now a days around 98%. The other 2% still run track & picture shows. For Press Screenings right now its about 85% on film and 15% Digital Video formats. But that changes every month with video on the rise.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-16-2008, 02:30 PM:

Bill, how do they do (domestic) press shows on film if nearly everything is off DI now? Is it because they're able to strike a couple of prints off the interneg early? I suppose it's all about how much different studios / distributors are prepared to pay for their materials.

[EDIT: To clarify - of course screenings off film are still being done for press shows in general - I'm just wondering about the mechanics of how it's done in today's DI-based world]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-16-2008, 02:42 PM:

It depends on the film maker's post production schedule as to when they have to lock picture for the studio and their release dates. Most times there are around 2-4 35mm prints availible for early press screenings before the next round of prints arrive. The lesser amount of prints has that print servicing both coasts and it gets more flight time.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 10-16-2008, 02:47 PM:

Thanks...LOL of course as they move to D5, HD-CAM SR etc., the picture no longer has to be locked...indeed as has been pointed out before, with 2K & 4K digital projection they can keep making changes well into the release period!

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-16-2008, 04:23 PM:

It's really not that tough, guys.

It's totally standard for press screenings to be coordinated by non-technical ad agency people who are given specific technical requirements. To meet them, you have to rent a high-end VTR. No surprise there.

I'd much rather be renting the deck and dealing with the setup than having someone else come in and try to hook it up in my environment.

Patrick, call up your local broadcast rental houses and ask them if they rent a D5 deck like the Panasonic AJ-HD3700. If not, just call up a national rental house (somebody like VER or one of the New York or LA houses) and have them ship it to you. At the price you're going to pay for the rental, the shipping should be negligable.

Scott, VER in Boston (ok, Woburn) has them in their catalog...; I know that a bunch of places in Boston have D5 workflows, including VideoLink, though presumably they won't rent you a deck.

Note that you'll probably need to make sure you have an adequate projector, and you may need to convert between HD-SDI and HD component video, if your projector doesn't take HD-SDI (I don't actually know that the HD3700 outputs HD-SDI, but I think it's a good bet).

--jhawk

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 10-17-2008, 07:36 AM:

quote: Bruce Hansen
D5 is a Painsonic, or ah Panasonic format. Painasonic does not have a good track record with tape formats (M, MII, D3 etc) so good luck finding one. It was an SD-SDI (standard def serial component digital) that Painasonic added some compression to to be able to record HD-SDI. Sony's HD CAM, and HD CAM SR are much more popular.

MII was widely used in some parts of the World, China for example. There were a couple of British television companies, Thames and Anglia, who used it, while most opted for Beta SP. Some claimed that MII had better picture quality, but I couldn't tell the difference.

In the composite world, D3 was very widely used, more so than Sony's 3/4" D2 format; D5 was intended to be the component answer to D3, and I believe some D5 machines can also play D3 tapes. In its original SD form D5 was uncompressed, unlike DigiBeta, which I think was compressed about 2:1.

I've only once seen a D5 machine, at the cinema in Ealing, which I think was at that time Virgin; it went through several name changes in a few years. It was installed, along with a JVC digital projector, for some test screenings a few years ago. These screenings were open to the public, who weren't told that digital projection was being used, but I wasn't able to get to see one. I saw the equipment when I visited the cinema for some reason.

It's certainly not something that you'd expect to find installed in a typical cinema.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-17-2008, 08:16 AM:

jhawk -- good call on VER. I wonder if they have one locally or if it would need to be shipped in.

There are a few other places in the area that probably have D5 decks (National Boston, Video Transfer, WGBH, and probably others), but, as you said, none of these is in the rental business.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-17-2008, 01:44 PM:

OK, ok, I picked up the phone. VER's list rate on these is $1700, but they'll knock it down to $1k if you ask nicely. They have them currently in Atlanta and Chicago, but they'll truck them for you for free. And they're happy to FedEx to whatever your favorite off-site location, no changes in the day rate, though of course you pay shipping.

And I'm sure there are plenty of other vendors too.

--jhawk

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-20-2008, 05:44 AM:

I am with Tony on this -- the studio is being told that NO theatre in town can play this D5 format and the studio is saying that everyone in exhibition in the entire town are the ones who "need to be educated?" Seems to me the studio origially made the decision that it is in their best interest to have a press screening of their product in this market. Yet they seem to be shooting themselves in the proverbial foot with this arrogant attitude.

If they are so flippant as to say that if no theatre in town can play their non-standard D5 format (non-standard at least for normal theatrical exhibition), then the town won't get the press screening tells me they can't want to play it that badly. As if a theatre could give a rat's ass whether they do a press screening or not. To put it bluntly, the studio needs to press screen their film allot more than the theatre needs to play it.

So let's get this straight -- the Big Dubayah doesn't have the wherewithall in all of their vast production facilities to be able to run off a copy in ANY format they want so that a theatre can play it on existing theatrical equipment? Gimme a break. Oh, wait....could this be some suit deciding that making, say, a BluRay DVD copy would compromise security, whilst sending out a format that no one can play will thwart those exhibitor pirates? How much you want to bet that is somehow behind this sillyness?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-20-2008, 10:24 AM:

Frank, you're right but you're also wrong.

D5 and HDCAM (and HDCAM SR) are professional high-end video formats, and they are essentially as close as video gets to the quality of film. The studios are uncompromising on the quality of their advance press screenings (rightly so!), and that is a good thing. We should not encourage them to drop their quality standards.

If you're running press screenings and you don't know what D5 and HDCAM SR are, then you do need to be educated. And yes, they probably don't really care too much about having a press screening in Kansas City, MO. If they did, they would hire and integrator to go and set it up.

If you don't run press screenings (which is to say, you're a normal theatre), then this does not apply to you. But then you're trying to dip your toes into a (somewhat lucrative) market that you're not familiar with, and that means it pays for you to learn the conventions and understand the game before screaming to high heaven.

BluRay Disc is a substantial step down from HDCAM SR and D5, because of compression and much more limited colorspace (but yes, it can attain the same 1920x1080 resolution that those formats can).

To be honest, studios can and should be (and are) more concerned with piracy of high definition digital elements like HDCAM and D5, because they can be perfectly copied and represent far higher quality versions of the movie than a DVD or BD screener.

--jhawk

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-20-2008, 10:40 AM:

quote: John Hawkinson
And yes, they probably don't really care too much about having a press screening in Kansas City, MO.

Isn't that the headquarters of AMC? Wouldn't it be in the best interest of one of Big Distributor's largest clients to have a press screening there? On the other hand, given the dearth of film reviewers these days, I'm surprised they have press screenings outside of NY/DC/LA/Chicago.

What about trade screenings? Trade screenings usually take place before press screenings (don't they?). It sounds more and more like someone in LA shot off his mouth and got WB right in the foot.

Edited to not disparage distributor

[ 10-20-2008, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Martin McCaffery ]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-20-2008, 12:08 PM:

I see your point, John, but on the other hand, Patrick's theatre, which I assume is a "normal" theatre and wasn't offering itself out as a rental space for press screenings was approached by WB's ad agency, not the other way around. Seems like the WB agency was just shooting in the dark trying to find a venue. For the WB suit to then cop an attitude because the theatre isn't equipped with this or that odd playback format is just a tad arrogant, IMHO, don't you think?

The other side of the coin is that maybe the WB suit should be the one to get educated about what equipment is usual in standard theatres' booths and what they are normally capable of handling and not get all bent out of shape when a theatre isn't familiar with some formats a studio uses in specialized venues.

At least the theatre, in the person of Patrick, went about trying to find out what D5 was and responded civilly, not answering the WB ahole in kind.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-20-2008, 12:14 PM:

Guys, this is not Warner Brothers. Please don't impugn them.

--jhawk

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-20-2008, 07:30 PM:

I'll say this...the last several Disney screenings I've done off of tape...it was HDCAM-SR and Disney supplied the deck in a road case. Disney is definitely a class act when it comes to their screenings (at least with me) and always have been. They always want it done right!

I can think of very few theatres that have D5 decks on site and I wouldn't advise any to purchase one right now as I see a distinct trend towards HDCAM-SR. The only theatre that comes to mind in the DC area with a D5 deck "in-the-rack" is the AFI/Silver in Silver Spring, MD. Then again, they have a quasi-broadcast facility on-site too so HDCAM, D5, DVCam...etc are all racked up. The theatre like space I can think of that has/had an HDCAM-SR on site in the DC area is the National Geographic theatre...which also has the Sony SXRD projector too.

The ad agency in this case should have contacts for renting/shipping such equipment to the theatres they are going to screening in...as well as 2K projectors and DMA8 Pluses too. That is just what it takes to run screenings nowadays.

To not do that is to expect all cinemas to have dubbers at the ready not too long ago. Those that did such work regularly...did...those that didn't...did not.

Steve

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-20-2008, 08:40 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
The ad agency in this case should have contacts for renting/shipping such equipment to the theatres they are going to screening in...as well as 2K projectors and DMA8 Pluses too. That is just what it takes to run screenings nowadays.

Exactly. Instead of copping an attitude the agency should have offered to provide the gear to do the show. That is exactly how all of my past experiences have been, and the studios/agencies have been nothing but helpful.

quote: Steve Guttag
To not do that is to expect all cinemas to have dubbers at the ready not too long ago. Those that did such work regularly...did...those that didn't...did not.

Very true, and this is the classic "chicken before the egg" scenario....in the case of my screening room at UC Irvine, we never had a dubber and so never had the opportunity to do any advance work..now that I have a dubber, bet we'll never use it. [Smile]

But at least I have encoders on both projectors now so we can tie in to digital track decks.

quote: jhawk
Guys, this is not Warner Brothers. Please don't impugn them.

John, I don't think anyone is trying to impugn the studio, only the jackalope who came off with an attitude.

Perhaps the OP can contact the studio involved directly, and let them know what happened, and offer to do the screening IF the studio agrees to rent the deck for them. [Smile]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-20-2008, 08:45 PM:

Sorry, Tony, I was unclear. My point was that the "major studio starting with a W" isn't Warner Brothers.

--jhawk

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 10-20-2008, 08:57 PM:

Thanks John for that clarification. [Smile]

Now I'm trying to think of what the other studio that starts with W could be.... [Smile]

And for anyone who figures it out, I'm not asking for a public posting of that name.. [Smile]

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 10-21-2008, 08:12 AM:

The studios always pays for the rental of the deck. I have a D-5 and HD-Cam SR in my booth and HD-Cam, Digi-Beta, DVCam, DVD plus Avid playback.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 10-21-2008, 10:36 AM:

Show-off [Big Grin]

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 10-21-2008, 10:51 AM:

Come ON, Bill. You don't have quad HDCAM SR playback for Sony's SXRD 4k projector (over 4x dual link HD-SDI)? If not you, then who? We are sorely disappointed!

(I didn't mean to suggest any theatre would get stuck footing the bill for renting a D5 deck; merely that I'd prefer to rent the deck myself and bill the studio rather than having the ad agency rent the deck and bring it to me. Fear-of-middle-men I guess it is...)

--jhawk