Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: KDM delivery via modem....

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Posted by Mike Renlund (Member # 4675) on 12-03-2008, 01:38 PM:

I am getting word again that Fox and Sony want all digital cinema houses to have a POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service)line installed, and a modem, so that the KDMs will be "securely" delivered. Why we are jumping back to technology that went out of style a decade ago is beyond me. I really wish there was no mention of a modem in the DCI spec. Anyone got any ideas as to how we can stop this mess from going forward?

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 12-03-2008, 01:55 PM:

I'm not sure if the requirement for a landline is for the primary method of key delivery, or for a backup. Their use of the word securely probably means that they would prefer not to deliver keys via e-mail anymore.

All AccessIT (Cinedigm) sites need to have a landline, and many keys are "modem dropped" rather than traveling over the internets.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 12-03-2008, 04:45 PM:

Is this a preferred method over shipping flash drives?

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 12-04-2008, 03:46 AM:

We never get flash drives anymore, its all over modem, so apprantly yes.

Very reliable, don't see what the big deal is.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-04-2008, 06:59 AM:

Almost all of the ones I've seen have been on the hard disc along with the 'print'. Since the key is tied down to a specific player, and to a specific range of dates, I can't see what this great 'security' issue is.

The UKFC /Arts Alliance setup includes a ADSL router for connection to the Internet, one intended use for which was for key delivery, but I haven't seen it used for this. I haven't been projecting for several months now, so this may have changed. There's certainly no modem or POTS line involved.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-04-2008, 08:10 AM:

In the US, at least, POTS circuits are tariffed differently from DSL or other types of circuits. If a POTS line fails, the ILEC (telephone company) is obligated to fix it within a very short amount of time, as the service is considered to be critical, whereas DSL lines can be down for weeks, with no recourse for the customer.

As silly as the requirement may seem, POTS service tends to Just Work (tm) and is not generally dependent upon additional customer-premises equipment being properly configured. It is also generally inexpensive (though maybe not for a large multi-screen facility) and can be obtained at virtually any location. The same cannot be said of DSL or T1 or most other types of connectivity, which tend to be expensive and may be unavailable in rural areas.

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 12-04-2008, 08:59 AM:

quote: Mike Renlund
Anyone got any ideas as to how we can stop this mess from going forward?

Refuse to play Fox and Sony until they lose enough money to not care about POTS lines, but this will only work if the big boys refuse too (AMC, Regal, Cinemark, etc). I know currently National Amusements does not book Fox on their digital screens because of the phone line requirement.

Posted by Jim Cassedy (Member # 4115) on 12-04-2008, 10:05 AM:

Having worked as an engineer for over 10 years at "the phone company" (Pacific Bell/SBC/ATT), I'd like to 2nd the comments made by Scott Norwood a couple of posts previous to this one.

Beleive it or not, there are still pockets of the county where broadband, either via dsl or cable-modem are unavailable.

Even at the TELCO we had many, many VERY sophisticated systems that still relied on POTS dial-up modems as their primary means of interconnectivity.

POTS is easier and cheaper to install, maintain and configure and is universally available. And as Scott pointed out, in the event of an outage, service restoral times are much quicker, due in part to legal quirks in the FCC regulatory structure which require it to be so.

I don't think it would be necessary to have a POTS line for every screen at a digital multiplex. There are routers which can be hung off the data end of a dial-up modem that can be used to route the KDM or other stuff to the proper digital server via a local IP network installed at the theater.

I'm not suggesting dial-up would be practical for content delivery, but modern modems and data compression alogrithims give it more than enough bandwidth and speed for KDM delivery and remote system management.

POTS & dial-up are far from dead!
...and remember: If it wasn't for Alexander Graham Bell,
we'd all be walking around carrying cellular telegraphs! [Big Grin]

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 12-04-2008, 10:59 AM:

Stephen,

The installation of a dial up modem was offered to AA sites earlier this year, or was it last year? I can't remember exactly. I think it was an optional extra rather than a requirement.

All the AA sites I've seen here in the UK have one ADSL equipped line per screen. The cost to the exhibitor must be quite considerable, you've got the copper wire rental from BT, plus business ADSL rates, then multiply that by the number of screens [Eek!]

One other hting to note, currently it is not possible to drop a KDM onto a Dolby server via the serial port (ie dial up), there is supposed to be an agreement between Fox/Sony & Dolby that they will deliver KDMs to Dolby equipped sites by other means. However I know of at least one exhibitor who was given a scratched 35mm copy of Quantum of Solace, because the distributor refused to deliver the KDM by email.

As far as I can see the dedicated line is an un-necessary expense, as most cinemas will have broadband of some sort in the building. Admittedly it may or may not be easy to navigate through firewalls etc to establish a VPN to the system. But her in good old value for money Britain, the cost of the bare wires would be at least £15/month rental plus £100 connection fee. Then you've got business broadband on top, so you're looking at a total in the region of £100/month per screen for something you probably already have in the building.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-04-2008, 11:24 AM:

Regardless of how secure and reliable a phone line is, it's still a step backwards technologically speaking. But then again, so is digital cinema in some respects.

Here's an idea.

Setup a secure web site where the theaters can login and generate their own keys. How hard can that be? Software distributors do that all the time.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-04-2008, 11:28 AM:

Pete,

Yes, I agree. I seem to remember reading in the pack which came from AA before the installation something to the effect that they wanted a dedicated connection to the Internet to avoid complications with other equipment which was not part of the system, and to esure that the required bandwidth would be available, which of course ADSL doesn't do. Since the amount of data to be moved around is tiny for key delivery, and quite small even for remote management/diagnostics, I really can't see why an existing connection shouldn't be used. I've never seen a digital installation with more than one screen, but to have a separate ADSL connection for each screen seems absolutely ridiculous; a bit of Cat. 5 cable, or possibly fibre if it's a large building, to each projection position is all that's needed. Even if there's no network available you could have the keys delivered to an Internet-connected computer in the manager's office, and send them out from there on USB sticks.

Maybe they thought that projectioists were simple folk who wouldn't understand things like data networks, so they would keep it simple by having each screen installation completely self-contained, with its own connection, but these days networks are common even at home, and I can't believe there are many cinemas that don't have them.

The ADSL connection is too slow to be used for most content delivery, it would be ok for trailers etc., so I can't see the point in each screen having its own.

While I was staying in Bradford a few weeks ago I made it as far as Scotland one day, Settle - Carlisle line from Shipley, and changed at Carlisle for Glasgow.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-04-2008, 12:06 PM:

The idea of having a separate DSL circuit for each screen is just stupid. It doesn't really provide any degree of redundancy or extra bandwidth vs. having a single DSL circuit for the building, assuming that all circuits would be through the same provider and terminated at the same CO.

How big are the keys? I've never seen one, but have always just assumed that they were maybe 1-2k text files. Is this a reasonable assumption?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-04-2008, 03:28 PM:

I'm still awaiting an answer from one of the server manufacturers as to one Potts line per booth or one line per server... No one seems to know...

Mark

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 12-04-2008, 03:30 PM:

KDMs are relatively small - a recent emailed zip file with 18 KDMs was 201KB, each individual KDM was 11KB.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Setup a secure web site where the theaters can login and generate their own keys. How hard can that be? Software distributors do that all the time.

This has been talked about, but since the studios are trying to be in control here they won't let it happen.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
one Potts line per booth or one line per server

With the Cinedigm solution the studios are OK with 1 POTS line per theatre. I forget which section of DCI talks about POTS lines but I think it is open to interpretation.

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 12-04-2008, 05:34 PM:

To my knowledge all US based POTS delivery systems that we use for KDM delivery are 1 line per location. With the Cinedigm LMS/networked solution this provides KDM access to all screens on site.
I find it interesting that the UK approach is a DSL line per screen
[Eek!]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-04-2008, 06:18 PM:

quote: David Zylstra
With the Cinedigm solution the studios are OK with 1 POTS line per theatre.

Sure, thats assuming that ONLY cinedigm is going to be calling with your KDM's... but thats not going to be the case in real life! What do you do if Sony is loading KDm's and Technicolor is trying to call to drop in your Disney KDM's? You would hope it would do an automatic call back but then nothing's perfect in this world.

Mark

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-04-2008, 06:19 PM:

quote: David Zylstra
This has been talked about, but since the studios are trying to be in control here they won't let it happen.

There are tons of ways for the studios to be in control, so that's a bogus argument. In fact I'd go a step further. When you deliver the content into the system, have the server go out to the net and get the damn key itself. The content can even tell the server where to go to get it. This isn't rocket science.

I wonder if the studios (and most of the employees including the executives) trust the web enough to do their banking online.

Posted by Brad Allen (Member # 470) on 12-04-2008, 07:38 PM:

Over the past 6 years, my DSL service has been much, much more reliable than the POTS.
Both from AT&T over the same wire.
Many times been without phone service for a couple of days, while the DSL keeps chugging right along.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
There are tons of ways for the studios to be in control, so that's a bogus argument. In fact I'd go a step further. When you deliver the content into the system, have the server go out to the net and get the damn key itself. The content can even tell the server where to go to get it. This isn't rocket science.

Exactly Mark, that's the way it should be done. Having a requirement for a POTS line is rediculous. POTS is fine IF you don't have broadband available.

Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 12-05-2008, 12:31 AM:

Reality check:

In most places, a commercial, bare bones POTS line runs somewhere between $25 and $40 per month.

With the other costs of digital and 3D being buried under all the vague reasons why we should have already installed it, why such a debate over pocket change?

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 12-05-2008, 02:18 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Sure, thats assuming that ONLY cinedigm is going to be calling with your KDM's... but thats not going to be the case in real life! What do you do if Sony is loading KDm's and Technicolor is trying to call to drop in your Disney KDM's? You would hope it would do an automatic call back but then nothing's perfect in this world.

I will repeat: we have been recieving all of our KDM's via modem for months without a single problem. One line for the location, hooked up to the LMS.

I can't really see how this is any sort of an issue at all....

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-05-2008, 08:18 AM:

quote: Dustin Mitchell
I will repeat: we have been recieving all of our KDM's via modem for months without a single problem. One line for the location, hooked up to the LMS.

I can't really see how this is any sort of an issue at all....

There is some question by at least one server manufacturer as to if they will allow them to continue being delivered to the LMS or not.....

Mark

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 12-05-2008, 10:23 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
There is some question by at least one server manufacturer as to if they will allow them to continue being delivered to the LMS or not.....

Mark, What's the LMS, and assuming that it's something somewhere in the theatre why should they not allow the keys to be delivered there? The keys are not going to work anywhere else if somebody does manage to steal them, are they?

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 12-05-2008, 10:55 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Sure, thats assuming that ONLY cinedigm is going to be calling with your KDM's

Actually Cindigm sends their KDMs via satellite, currently Deluxe and Technicolor use the modems. I have not heard of any conflicts with transfers, I assume they simply queue it up and it redials when busy.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
What do you do if Sony is loading KDm's and Technicolor is trying to call to drop in your Disney KDM's?

This problem still exists with 1 line per auditorium since the studios are authorizing all KDMs in a facility.

quote: Jack Ondracek
With the other costs of digital and 3D being buried under all the vague reasons why we should have already installed it, why such a debate over pocket change?

What if you are Regal - 552 location 6800 screens . . . . 1 $25 line per location is $165,000 per year wasted for less than a few minutes of KDM transfer per week - Regal can easily absorb the low bandwidth KDM transfer into their corporate WAN with no additional cost. Yes $165,000 may be pocket change in Regal's multi million dollar world, but it is still a significant number that can be brought as profit to the bottom line.

quote:
There are tons of ways for the studios to be in control, so that's a bogus argument. When you deliver the content into the system, have the server go out to the net and get the damn key itself. The content can even tell the server where to go to get it. This isn't rocket science.

Tell that to the studios - I was in the room when this was brought up, the studio people didn't like the idea too much; they want to control the delivery of the KDM to the facility.

The NATO DC System Requirements document addresses a lot of these topics, but we'll see how the studios respond when certain items are pushed - it will take the large exhibitors to refuse to put modems in for modems to become a moot point.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
There is some question by at least one server manufacturer as to if they will allow them to continue being delivered to the LMS or not.....

The "Multiplex Theatre Architecture" diagram in DCI spec 1.2 shows only 1 modem plugged into the TMS so my interpretation is 1 modem per building if there is a TMS.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 12-05-2008, 11:52 AM:

Agreed with Jack; I don't understand the whining about the cost of POTS lines. It's in the DCI specification. If you want to play DCI movies, then you need to have equipment that meets that specification. If you don't like the specification, then you have the option of showing 35mm or trying to convince DCI to change the specification.

POTS lines are relatively inexpensive and have a number of characteristics that aren't met by other communication media, so it's not exactly an unreasonable requirement.

As for control of key delivery, I can only guess that perhaps the film distributors don't want to lose shows because (typically under-trained and under-paid) theatre employees can't figure out how to download keys and transfer them to the servers.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 12-05-2008, 12:11 PM:

quote: David Zylstra
Tell that to the studios - I was in the room when this was brought up, the studio people didn't like the idea too much; they want to control the delivery of the KDM to the facility.

It's not my job to tell the studios, they have people that do that. If those people didn't listen to the execs and explain to them how the key server solution could address every single one of their concerns, that's not my fault.

And you're absolutely correct about the way those $25 POTS line costs add up.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 12-05-2008, 09:03 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
As for control of key delivery, I can only guess that perhaps the film distributors don't want to lose shows because (typically under-trained and under-paid) theatre employees can't figure out how to download keys and transfer them to the servers.

If these employees are so dumb then wouldn't they be too dumb to load the movies to begin with since most of the time they're sent on hard disks?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-06-2008, 04:06 AM:

quote: Stephen Furley
Mark, What's the LMS

Library Management Server(or system). Yes, it works fine this way as the normal every day LMS does distribute the KDM's to the correct theaters servers but of course its total control the studios are after...

Mark

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 12-09-2008, 11:31 AM:

quote: Jack Ondracek
In most places, a commercial, bare bones POTS line runs somewhere between $25 and $40 per month.

Try 12.00 a month in our neck of the woods. Qwest charges that rate for a line with no options. If your site is already utilizing DSL through Qwest, you already have a POTS coming into your building.

I think that they key delivery system is still too much in it's infancy to determine the permanent method that will be used. All Cinedigm sites have "quirks" involving key delivery. If Keys are dropped to the LMS during show playback or transfers, there is a high likelyhood that the transfer will be interrupted. In some cases, playback was affected as well. Granted this has to happen DURING playback or transfer. Keys are routinely dropped during off-hours to minimize effect on the theaters, but it proves that there is still a lot of work to be done.