Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Christie CP2000-M and hidden bulb cost

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Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 02-19-2009, 05:12 AM:

I wanted to see if this story makes sense. I was told that the CP2000-M will only take one bulb (and it will be a $1200 bulb). The person that told me this said that for a smaller screen (less than 35 feet) it might be better to buy the CP2000-ZX (especially now that they come with the full resolution 3D capability) and use a 2k bulb that costs around $700. The reasoning was that the ongoing maintenance savings would pay the difference in the projector over not that many years and you'd have a better performing projector (Christie's specs on the website aren't quite as good for the M). Any opinions on this? The auditorium that the projector will go in has a 27 foot wide (in scope) common height screen.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 02-19-2009, 08:20 AM:

I have a similar situation. The M version cannot be fitted with Dolby 3D.

I imagine a less costly bulb will be developed for the M, but who can say when.

It is a very new model so if you need to install quickly, I'd go with the ZX

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-19-2009, 09:03 AM:

Yes, the 2kw lamp costs about a dollar an hour to operate. However the M can also be the least expensive D-Cinema projector to operate because it also accepts regular Cinema Lamps of the 1600HS and 1000HS type. The 1600HS can light up to a 20 foot matte white screen and make it to well over 23 foot lamberts. I have one in on a 20 foot wide screen at a post facility running a 1600HS and it works beautifully. You just have to get the proiper information fomr your dealer and place the correct size D-Cinema projector on the correct sized screen. The ZX will also accept a plethora of the CXL type Cinema lamps all the way up to CXL-30 and again when placed on the proper sized screen it can be very inexpensive to operate.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-19-2009, 10:55 AM:

Christie has the adapter needed to allow the M to take a 1600...which means it can also take the 1000W lamp BUT I don't think they have the software set to allow the 1KW lamp and that means that you will likely only be able to get the current down low enough such that the 1KW lamp will be near the top of its range.

So your info on the M is wrong. The special 2KW lamp for the M is just that...special (like there is a special 3KW lamp for the ZX. The M's 2K lamp, the CDXL-20SD is more closely resembles a 1600HS lamp though not the same as that either. For whatever reason Christie isn't listing the options of using "film" lamps in their digital projectors so yes, the info out there is sketchy. On the ZX, I don't know if they have the CXL-16HS on the software list yet so again...you may end up selecting CXL-20 and merely turning the current down as far as it will go (about 1KW).

I think there may be progress on the M getting a Dolby Digital kit but it won't be in the next month or two. It clearly has applications in small screening rooms where the 10000-12000 lumens will be more than sufficient on a smallish screen. Until then, the Barco DP1200 is an option and one can have Dolby 3D built-in from the factory.

Note, the CP2000-M isn't quite shipping yet but it should be very soon.

Steve

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 02-19-2009, 01:05 PM:

I don't think Barco has really started to ship the 1200's yet have they? I heard March is when production models when begin to ship.

Chase

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-19-2009, 02:27 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
So your info on the M is wrong.

Actually not wrong... neither lamp is in the software as of yet... you just have to watch your maximum lamp current for now, there are only prototypes operating in the field... the one I installed is SN-4. The M starts shipping in about two weeks and it will be interesting to see if they've incorporated the two HS lamps into the drop down lamp thingy when you go to install a new lamp, if they haven't it'll still work just fine. But as-is the lamp current can go low enough to accommodate either HS lamp. There is also a new Short Gap 1600 watter in the works to fill the gap (pun intended) between the 20SD and the 1600HS. That'll be several months out though.

quote: Steve Guttag
Christie isn't listing the options of using "film" lamps in their digital projectors so yes, the info out there is sketchy.

Actually they probably won't list the cinema lamps that will work... most of them will however and all one need do is contact the appropriate people at Christie and see if they will warrant the lamp as used for that purpose. We have actually tested cinema type lamps for Christie in both Christie and BARCO projectors. Many "CXL type" cinema lamps, 2kw to 6kw will work just fine and they cost alot less to purchase and hence to operate over the lamp life. We have about 50 locations here in the greater SLC running both BARCOs and NEC 2500s that all run with cinema type lamps except the 3-D screens.

Regarding Dolby 3-D in the M... Good luck... Having had one apart to replace an integrator I can say there really isn't room to do it properly. Everything is so minaturized in the M that it leasves no room at all for anything. The wheel if they suceed in getting it in there will end up in the path of incomming glass if and when a lamp explodes. That $15,000.00 wheel will bite the dust!

I spent last Saturday vaccuming up $15,000.00 worth of Dolby 3-D filter wheel bits in a CP-2000. Really, the design of the Dolby Wheel into the CP-2000 is a very poor design and the snood acts like a funnel for the incomming glass during an explosion. There IS a simple and inexpensive fix to prevent this from happenning and I guess those involved were blind as to what might happen.
Anyone intending to go past warranty hours on a lamp say to the advertised average life had better have good extra insurance or expect to get a 20K parts bill to get the projector back up. It'll also be very interesting to see how long it takes before these wheels begin to fade and the quality of the 3-D deterioates. Many many people are going to go into shock when they find out!

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 02-19-2009, 09:19 PM:

On the CP2000SB...they do list the CXL lamps. In the ZX they didn't up to firmware 1.1...I don't recall if they made it into version 2.0. However...they have a specal lamp adapter for using the CXL line in the ZX.

As for 15K...on that color wheel...seems rather high to me but I have not looked up the price.

Steve

Note, Dolby has 2 color wheels...one is notably smaller...presummably for the .98" chip projectors.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-19-2009, 09:45 PM:

Note that that price would be near list... not dealer cost.

Mark

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 02-19-2009, 10:00 PM:

Mark,

Was that wheel damage caused by a bulb explosion?

If so, what is your solution to avoiding that?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-19-2009, 10:56 PM:

Very simple... just another optical flat(ar of course) at the entrance to the snood. There is that U shaped piece the snood is clamped to. That gives at least a couple of inches between the UV filter itself and the beginning of the snood where the flat could be located. Glass fragments velocity after passing through the UV filter would be slowed by the breaking of it and although they may damage an optical flat located further in the likelyhood of obliterating the flat is almost zip. Personally even if the flat eats a half footlambert that is better than loosing the wheel... With the new full frame projectors that half a foot lambert wouldn't even matter. Until there is some improvement in this design (if ever) don't run your 3-D lamps past warranty!

P.S. Even if the AR flat costs 500 bucks thats alot less than the wheel!

Mark

Posted by Amanda Mundin (Member # 3386) on 02-26-2009, 10:42 AM:

On a similar note with a different projector, the NEC NC800, this apparently uses a special bulb module. Here in the U.K. we have the choice of either an entire new module at a cost of over £2,000UKP, or a re-lamped module at around half the price. Does anyone know if there are other bulbs that can be used in the NC800?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-27-2009, 03:00 PM:

No, There are no others that will work. Your CERMAX lamp is modular and pre-aligned. Many projectors use that style of lamp or similar including the Imax MPX projector. The re-lamped version wold be worth a try but be sure it's comming fomr a reputable company and has a good warranty. A lamp explosion even with that type of lamp will more than likely damage other components inside the projector and you need to be sure the manufacturers warranty covers those parts if it explodes while under warranty.

Mark

Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 02-27-2009, 03:58 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
It'll also be very interesting to see how long it takes before these wheels begin to fade and the quality of the 3-D deterioates.

The Dolby 3D wheel uses dichroic filters, not dyes, and thus will not fade.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 02-28-2009, 08:26 PM:

Jon,

What we were taught in Dolby Training Class is that it is not dye based but it actually has over 50 layers of metal vaporized on it's surface to make up the filter, ditto for the glasses which is why they cost what they do. This multi layered metal is what actually makes up the filters... not some dichroic stuff. Still 15,000.00 is about list price for the wheel and it's clearly over towards the ludicrous side of things for any D-Cinema replacement part. Thats about double the cost of any of the T.I. boards and a little over half the cost of a replacement CP-2000 light engine. If that isn't ludicrous then I clearly don't know what is....

Mark

Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 02-28-2009, 08:50 PM:

"Dichroic filters" is just another term for thin-film filters.

I'm sure they're using the "If someone's willing to pay, it isn't too expensive" pricing scheme.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-01-2009, 08:14 AM:

Its funny because now that they are run by a board of directors and not by Ray Dolby they make a funny habbit of mentioning in class that they are a "For Profit Company" like before under Ray's guidance they weren't... Anyway "For Profit" is an understatement. The other funny thing is that the whole kit as bought from BARCO is about 8 grand or so.

Go figure....

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-01-2009, 11:23 AM:

Oh, there is defintely a new mantra at Dolby now that they are a public company. It isn't that Dolby was not interested in profit when it was a private company...just that it only had to answer to one person...Ray...if he wanted to lose money...that was his choice. He could have his pet projects.

If he wanted to create a screening room...have a place for a mini-grand piano...well...thats his call. No ROE had to be done.

Now, everything Dolby does has to have its investors in mind...that is just life when you have outside agencies ensuring you acting responsibly (a bit of a joke in our current financial "crisis", I know).

The Barco pricing thing you refer to...and not correctly, I might add...relates to a system that includes it factory installed in a DP2000...ONLY. Who knows how Barco robs Peter to Pay Paul to make their system attractive. BTW...in a Barco, one is not likely to damage their Dolby filter wheel in the first place. There is not only the filter in the front of the lamphouse that the lamp would have to go through...it would also need to break free of the front lamp support and finally, it would have to turn 90-degrees.

I'm much less familiar with NEC...but from what I can tell, Christie's projectors are most vunerable to having lamp bits going forward into the color wheel or the integrating rod.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-01-2009, 01:35 PM:

NEC is also at a right angle. Even with the right angle machines the odds would probably be 50-50. More like 90-10 with the Christie though... but thats also how Christie gets more light out of their projectors. I may develop an extra glass optical flat myself to place in these Dolby/Christie systems. A second optical flat at the input side of the snood would almost completely eliminate any chance of loosing the wheel. Again, Its a stupid design and obvious problem and Dolby should really step to bat and fix the problem themselves. They are certainly going to loose customers over the cost of that wheel!!

Mark

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-05-2009, 11:32 PM:

Ok, there's no more hidden lamp cost with this model. I thought I'd dredge this one up and post some results we got from an actual production M running a CXL-16HS lamp. This is one of he cheapest cimema lamps one can buy.

20 foot wide Harkness matte white perf screen (in reality a bit more than 1.0 gain)

54 amps or 1054 watts for 18 fl in flat

62 amps or 1210 watts for 18 fl in scope

Now that makes the M THE LEAST EXPENSIVE D-Cinema projector to operate. A new forth comming short gap 1600 watt lamp will help bridge the gap between the the CXL-16HS and the more expensive 20SD lamp.

Mark

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 03-06-2009, 12:12 AM:

It appears to me that generally in the past few years, Christie has always come out a little ahead on both build quality, and performance in regards to their projectors.

I'm not a huge fan of Barco, and have limited experience with NEC, but have seen enough product to know that I would prefer to service the Christie equipment. Performance and Support cannot be argued when comparing the brands (excluding 3rd party support, which Barco relies heavily on)

Splitting hairs over lamp cost doesn't seem to make much sense in this case. The "hidden costs" just don't add up. The M consumes far less power, only requires single phase 220, and can be placed in a very small area. Some of these points might not be valid for existing builds, but for new construction, it can make or break the ability to size a projector accordingly when the competing companies offer something that come short of hitting the mark for light output.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-06-2009, 08:39 AM:

Tristian,

Actually I take lamp costs into account when specing new systems... the CHristie software also does this and provides a yearly lamp cost figure. I prefer to be able to operate these systems if at all possible with regular cinema lamps as this can cut lamp cost in half in many cases. And the 20SD lamp is quite expensive to purchase and to operate even with the smaller amount of power consumed. The lamp only has a 1200 hour warranteed life and lists for near $1200.00!! Now this is still far less expensive to operate than the small NEC projector that uses the Cermax lamp... those are a bit over 2 grand. So both 1600 watt lamps obviously bring using this projector well into the reality zone.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-06-2009, 08:48 AM:

I don't think it can be argued that Christie is the cheapest to own (in any size category). I would not say they are the most refined of the offerings though.

It is weird...Christie is ahead of the others in HDCP compliance on their projectors, behind HDCP compliance on their alternative content switcher. Christie is ahead of the others in brightness but behind the others in lamp changes when it involves size differences (between 2D and 3D). With Christie, you need to have booth personnel able to remove adapters, add adapters and/or move front lamp supports around (without destroying the hardware over time). Except the SB, unless you have a dedicated PC/Laptop, one also needs to use their CDP to record lamp changes (again at the booth personnel level)...way too cumbersom. Barco, with their lamp module...sure it is uber-expensive, BUT you can have 2D and 3D lamps pre-loaded and aligned.

Christie is behind the curve on motorized zoom lenses (the M being their first)...NEC was the first out of the gate with that and Barco is now 100% motorized lens. It may not seem like a big deal but when one goes between Scope/Flat on a constant-width screen, without motorized zoom, the installer either needs to depend on the booth people to zoom the lens (and possibly refocus, and possibly lens shift), or throw away pixels on Scope. With NEC or Barco...the lens position/zoom can be set into the presets.

I really don't see any clear winner in every situation. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-06-2009, 10:22 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
With Christie, you need to have booth personnel able to remove adapters, add adapters and/or move front lamp supports around (without destroying the hardware over time).

Its easy to have adaptors on each lamp ready to install them. This eliminates the need for fiddling with lamp adaptors at all. Barco don't forget also has lamp adaptors and so does NEC. For on the fly 2-D/3-D changes you can't beat BARCO's lamp module but do the new BARCO's have this feature? That DP-100 lamp module only costs about 15 grand. Lamp adaptors cost about 50 bucks. As for lamp change info... I don't see any real difference in using BARCO's Touch screen or Christies CDP. Either way you have to go in and select "New Lamp" in one fashion or another and then choose the lamp from the drop down box. Then enter the serial number. Yous gets there by the same means in both cases... ditto for the SB. The BARCO has fewer lamps to select from allowing a greater chance of overdriving a lamp as you have to choose the closest thing that you are installing to.

Please note that at least on the DP-100 the motorized lens mount was an expensive option as was the constant light feature. I don't know of any DP-100's that have motorized zoom. Christie is releasing a new motorized zoom controler that will be retrofitable to all Christie projectors without it. This will happen around Show West.

I find both BARCO and Christie as easy to service and work on and build quality is comparable with Christie edging them out. Christie also has their patented ultra lens coating on all optical components in the light chain that the other two manufacturers don't have. Christies are by far the best engineered projectors made and all one need do is look at the insides of one... it shows and its obvious. NEC's are rats nests and not very tidy inside... they look haphazardly engineered. BARCO made some bad design mistakes in the negative lamp fitting in the DP100 lamp module... don't overtighten them or it'll snap in half leaving you without an operable lamp module till a new fitting arrives. That brass fitting should be made from stainless steel instead. They also have the huge connector pins that plug directly into the ignitor... another bad design in which if the pin burns up it also destroys an $1800.00 ignitor! Christie on the other hand surprisingly went with a very common IREM ignitor that is in a seperate compartment and cable connected.

Doing the screen file setups, MCGD, and other aspects of the light engine setup on any of the brands is made equally as easy by utilizing the T.I. Software instead of the manufacturers version which is merely an interface to the actual T.I. Software itself. The T.I. Software is generally much more difficult at first to understand and use... it IS engineering software after all, not user software... but it offers far more control and much finer adjustment than any of the manufacturers interfaces... Barco's included. Barco's is the easiest interface of them all for the inexperienced or those that are not doing many setups, etc. Also note that no matter who's projector you work on with the T.I. software the Manufacturers interface software will reflect what ever settings you load in via the T.I. software. This still allows saving settings and other files as normal.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 03-06-2009, 12:47 PM:

Things have been refined on the current Barcos...including the lamphouses. For the record, the DP100 lamphouse was not $15,000...ever...it currently "LISTS" for $8,700.00

As for the Christie adapters to use say a CXL-20...list is $367.00. Not anywhere near the cost of a lamphouse, for sure but they don't have reflectors, heat filters and lamp adjust mechanisms so it isn't a fair cost comparison.

However...lets say you are switching from a CDXL-20 to a CDXL-60...then your front lamp support also is changing around...no matter how you cut it, that support, hardware and mount are going to be much more worse for wear.

Leaving the adapters on is okay...until they throw them away. I agree that changing the lamp in the Barco lamphouse is not a vacation though.

As for motorized lenses...all of the current projectors use motorized lenses, standard. On the DP100, they only briefly even offered it. As I said, Christie is behind the curve on motorized lenses...only the M currently has it...not that they won't hae motorized version for the rest later...I also believe that the CineIPM will be HDCP compliant...someday...Barco's ACS-2048 was always HDCP compliant but the DP3000 is NOT...just odd crap like that.

Christie can use motorized anamorphics or WCLs on ALL of their projectors, Barco, just on the DP3000. Barco was first in .98" chip projectors with full-frame triple flash...Christie just has their production "M"s out now that have that.

Christie now has full-frame triple flash on their 1.2" machine, Barco is holding off on the DP3000 (their only 1.2" machine now) until the next board revision due out this year by TI to avoid a potential double-upgrade.

As for the CDP....I hate it...very slow and entering a serial number on it is painful. Not so bad on the PC-Touch panel on the Barco. Also not so bad on the TPS of the Christie "SB/XB"

As for color calibration...Barco is definitely more refined...Barco also has you CHECK your results...something Christie really should impliment. Every tech I've asked that has set up Christies...including Christie Factory techs...after they shoot their colors...I asked...so did you verify that all four colors are reading proper after correction? NONE ever did! With Barco, it is just a natural part of the color set up....very smart.

BTW...same with Dolby 3D...VERIFY one's colors are right...I've had the colors "not take" and you get bizzar results...it too rebooting the system, then reshooting the colors to get proper results. Don't believe just because you key some numbers in that it actually is doing it!

For alternative content, I've definately had better results in formatting on Barco than on Christie. For DCinema...both are excellent.

Steve

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 03-06-2009, 12:57 PM:

In my limited but growing experience with both projectors, I find I agree with Steve's overall outline on the features. I look forward to Christie's motorized adaptor for the ZX.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 03-06-2009, 01:04 PM:

quote:
BTW...same with Dolby 3D...VERIFY one's colors are right...I've had the colors "not take" and you get bizzar results...it too rebooting the system, then reshooting the colors to get proper results. Don't believe just because you key some numbers in that it actually is doing it!

Just another perfect reason to be using the T.I. software. Its all there and you're talking directly to the light engine... Dolby 3-D aside who's correction is done in the show player and not the projector. Bypassing the manufacturers interface software during setup definately has advantages and what you see in the manufacturers interface software is in many cases no more than just a different reflection of the T.I. software anyway. Communicating direct with the real thing from my experience is the best way to go and it can be done with all projectors out there from just one comprehensive set up program!

Mark