Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital Changeover...

This is topic Digital Changeover... in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 04-17-2009, 11:09 AM:

Well it is happening. We just got delivery of 1 brand new digital projector. Unfortunately they lost the screen in shipping... so we won't get to install till monday but I was curious if any one here has been present at an install and could give me a bit of advice as to what to look for or what kinds of questions to ask the installers.

1 down 9 to go!!! [Big Grin]

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 04-17-2009, 11:20 AM:

Mentioning what brand you are putting what server e.t.c might give us a hint! [Big Grin]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-17-2009, 01:00 PM:

One thing for sure...it won't be a Horizon digital projector so you can expect a lot more reliability.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-17-2009, 06:36 PM:

Andrew... We really need more particuluars on this. I disagree with Steve... It could actually be just as much pain in the ass as the Horizon gear is... depending on what they bought you.

In my book for best reliability its Christie Projectors and Dolby Servers. Both Christie and Dolby also have unsurpassed after the purchase service if it's ever needed. If they bought you something else then it's touch and go although Qube and then Doremi would be my second and third choice for servers. For 3-D, Master Image and then Dolby. Real-D(umb)has too many strings attached!!!! The Real-D(umb) light doubler can only work at all in certain situations(and not many at that).

So, please fill us in...

Mark

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 04-17-2009, 07:45 PM:

I'm betting he has Real-D since he is getting a new screen. Is Real-D cheaper? I am guessing that it MUST be.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-17-2009, 08:59 PM:

quote: Joe Redifer
Is Real-D cheaper? I am guessing that it MUST be.

They try to convince you that it is but it's not and you're stuck with them for 10 years too!! Of course the best alternative is to actually OWN your 3-D system... so that means either Dolby or Master Image... I installed 2 Dolby 3-D systems this week... In my service area 3-D continues to do big buisness and now two sites now have 2 each Dolby 3-D systems!

I think that with Dolby 3-D people are initally put off by the requirement and expense of an industrial dishwasher... Once an intelligent person researches it they discover that it's not as expensive as the other systems are over a given time period.

Mark

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 04-17-2009, 10:49 PM:

good to hear the Horizon stuff is starting to go - now you have a full set of spare parts for the other machines.
One thing to look for during/after the install is how the picture fits the screen - i.e. with the current digital lenses you can adjust for a perfect fit of the picture height and adjust your side masking to a near exact 1.85:1 and 2.39:1 format.

Like everyone else I'm curious what brand equipment you got? also, is the screen flat or curved?

quote:
They try to convince you that it is but it's not and you're stuck with them for 10 years too!!

RealD can be the quickest to return $$ on the investment - and by my calculations scales to multiple screens better (i.e. no matter how many 3D screens you have there are only a limited number of 3D releases to give you a ROI). Long term MasterImage and Dolby definitely look to be more profitable, depending on attendance.

THERE IS NO REQUIRED 10 YEAR CONTRACT WITH REALD - yes, if you are a CBG member there may be a longer term than others have, but look at your initial expense vs that of a shorter term (and you are free to make your own shorter deal).

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-18-2009, 12:48 AM:

quote: Andrew Bangs
Well it is happening. We just got delivery of 1 brand new digital projector.

While that is indeed good news and most likely a sound investment (unless you guys went with Sony) I can't resist adding this comment:

For the price of that one D-Cinema screen you could have replaced 2-4 screens of the 35mm junk you have now. [Big Grin]

Edited to add: However, if I get one of the jobs I bid recently, you all may get to watch me eat crow as D-Cinema is one of the options for that venue. [Smile]

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-18-2009, 11:46 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I disagree with Steve... It could actually be just as much pain in the ass as the Horizon gear is... depending on what they bought you.

There is a shocker!

Hmmm...there are three possibilities of projector manufacturers in the USA (it isn't likely the others can be as low-cost) and all three have their fans and some who don't like...the Horizon has no fans that I'm aware of...every report on them are troublesome junk. I guess Rich likes em but there's always one guy in a crowd...probably likes them because they are Chinese junk.

On the servers...You listed Dolby, Doremi, and Cube...odds are it is one of those and which server is doing worse than Horizon "equipment?"

Tony...no need to "eat crow"...unless you like doing that sort of thing. There is no shame in putting in either digial or film. I do it all the time. Just do your best with whichever you are working with.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-18-2009, 01:20 PM:

Steve... at least Christie having Ushio behind them certainly makes for a much more solid company. The other two companies... #1 Is the projector company thats just a corner on someone's desk, and they are doing more biz in another industry at the moment that they may actually allow them to stay in buisness. And #2 is the projector company that's wishy washy at best and seems to do its best to eventually piss off every customer it gets.

There are several small foreign server companies out there trying to pry into the US market that if they only semi sucessful or don't at all could make for a very bad day.

Or IMHO in the D-Cinema biz it may soon be that its best to stick to gear thats actually built in North America.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-18-2009, 05:01 PM:

But back on point...it is rather likely that any DCinema gear that they get will be far more reliable than their Horizon gear...it would be near impossible to get worse.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-18-2009, 07:17 PM:

Ok, I'll switch the "worse" part to "equally as bad"....

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 04-19-2009, 01:18 PM:

Ok well from what I can tell so far, because the boss want's it all kept in the box till they install, the base units are strong and the projectors appear to be DLP. we actually got two systems not one but we are only putting in one screen right now. Funny thing is we are off to a rocky start as the projectors were delivered but the screen was lost in shipping... How??? I don't know but we are hoping it shows up tomorrow (monday) for install.

I was more interested in general knowledge questions that might apply to any Digital system. But I guess that could be allot of speculative info. So far these are the only details I have. The owner is sort of just signing the checks right now and not giving out any details or not asking himself which is why I am kind of digging for good questions to ask so we don't all look like a bunch of morons when this stuff is installed. Don't be afraid to put in the silly stuff like "ask where the power button is." God knows I love pointing out obvious stuff like that. So I can take it too. You never know you may surprise me with a basic question I didn't even think of before. You all may be pretty smart about this stuff and take allot for granted but I think their are a bunch of people around that are probably looking through this stuff hoping for some basic info. Hey it's a forum Just put it out there.

P.S. Did I post this in straight to Video or did it get moved??? I probably misunderstood what this section was about. My Bad! I thought it was about movies that went straight to home video... [Confused]

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 04-19-2009, 02:43 PM:

Well if the bases are Strong most probably you have the NEC line of projectors. Is there a chance you got the Starus Digital Cinema Server from Nec as well? I hope you get a Dolby Server. Do you have any indication you are putting any 3D System?
Demetris

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 04-19-2009, 03:21 PM:

Yes I do believe the system will be 3D because we are hoping the Battle for terra will be our first Digital 3D show. I will get some more info tonight when I go in and will post back later.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-20-2009, 12:42 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Tony...no need to "eat crow"...unless you like doing that sort of thing. There is no shame in putting in either digial or film. I do it all the time. Just do your best with whichever you are working with.

Thanks for the kind words Steve. [Big Grin]

I made that comment keeping in mind that virtually all of my posts here on F-T in regards to D-Cinema have not exactly been positive. [Big Grin]

Andrew, congrats.. but why is your boss so worried about secrecy? As the main man in the booth, you certainly are well within your rights to know what the hell they're installing so you can get your questions answered in advance of opening night. Open (carefully) the bloody boxes yourself and get the brand info so we can all help you!!

And if you boss has a fit about that, then that proves to me he's not someone worth working for....

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 04-21-2009, 01:49 AM:

Tony it was not a matter of secrecy but of security and protection from the booth monkeys. I am sure he was fine with me going through it and I did.
We have Nec Equipment with a GDC Server. At least that is what I got from the boxes. we are installing it tomorrow (Tuesday). I will let you all know more after that.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 04-21-2009, 03:20 AM:

quote:
Open (carefully) the bloody boxes yourself and get the brand info so we can all help you!!

Where equipment is to be installed and commissioned by the supplier, or a third party, rather than you doing it yourself, as seems likely to be the case with digital cinema equipment, opening the boxes may not be a good idea. If anything is missing or broken when the instllallers open the boxes then it is not your problem if the seals are intact at the time.

Most of our I.T. equipment at work we install ourselves, but in the few cases where installation is included in the purchase, e.g. a 16 kVA three phase in single phase out UPS that we put in last year, it's usually specified that we must not open the boxes ourselves.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 04-22-2009, 12:43 PM:

Ermmm.. [Roll Eyes]

What is a GDC Server [Confused]

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-22-2009, 01:12 PM:

LOL

One of these:

http://www.gdc-tech.com/sa2100A.htm

quote:
GDC Technology is proud to introduce the SA-2100A Digital Cinema Server, our fourth generation digital cinema playback server designed to fully comply with DCI specifications and FIPS-140 security requirements.

The SA-2100A is the advanced version of the highly successful model SA-2100, retaining all its features such as:

2K/4K DCI MXF JPEG2000 playback
DCI MXF JPEG2000 3D playback
MPEG2 MXF Interop playback
CineLink II™ link encryption
CineCanvas™ image and subtitling management
FIPS-140 security features
DCI approved forensic watermarking
HDTV live streaming/store-and-forward capabilities
Highly stable Linux-based operating system
Touch screen user interface
Ingest of Digital Cinema Packages (DCPs) via physical media, network and satellite
In addition, the SA-2100A offers increased storage capacity and flexibility with the following new features offered as standard.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 04-22-2009, 01:23 PM:

Well ok. Why didn't you go with a Dolby or a Doremi which at least have a good reputation. How many have used the GDC server? Have you heard any comments about it? I know it's not your choice but at least you could have been consulted about what equipment you would suggest to your manager.
Demetris

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 04-22-2009, 01:48 PM:

Ive used a GDC and it seems to be a fine player with a easy to use interface.

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-22-2009, 02:00 PM:

It looks like a really fine player to me, and watch for the mandatory fips certification in all DCI certified equipment.

Most people don't realize that virtually all DCI equipment today (servers and projectors) do NOT meet DCI specifications and will soon have to be upgraded once studios start demanding it, specially if VPF are involved.

But his feature I find interesting.

quote:
Quad Link Option (SA-2100AQ)
The SA-2100A can also be upgraded to the SA-2100AQ which features four HD-SDI outputs. This option enables the SA-2100AQ to be used for:

• Highest quality 3D playback with dual stream 12-bit 4:4:4 output images to two projectors simultaneously

• Independent playback of two separate 2D content streams to two projectors simultaneously (Available from Q1 2009)

So you could use just one server to playback two movies to two projectors? This could perhaps reduce costs for those on a shoestring budget that can't afford to have backups and whatnot.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-22-2009, 02:49 PM:

Well, if the North invades the South and if Chicken Cookers alone can't support th US NEC distributer you're really sunk.

quote:
Highest quality 3D playback with dual stream 12-bit 4:4:4 output images to two projectors simultaneously

• Independent playback of two separate 2D content streams to two projectors simultaneously (Available from Q1 2009)

Julio... The Qube has been able to do that for quite some time and it is standard, not an option.

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-23-2009, 03:51 AM:

[Smile]

quote:
GDC Technology (“GDC”) is a subsidiary of the Hong Kong publicly listed company - Global Digital Creations Holdings Limited. GDC’s shareholders include Global Digital Creations Holdings Limited and Mr Li Ka-Shing (the world’s 11th wealthiest person according to Forbes 2008). GDC is a leading global digital cinema solution provider with a number of world-first achievements: The first company to develop a software-based digital cinema server (2000); first to use encrypted mobile hard disk drives for content delivery (2000); first to deploy 2K digital cinema multiplexes (2003, Singapore); and first to deliver quad-link digital cinema servers (2008). GDC is currently the world’s second largest provider of digital cinema servers with an installation base of more than 1000, serving its customers through offices in the U.S., Singapore, Hong Kong and China.

Not sure if it's true any longer, but until recently, they were the number 2 server in number of worldwide installations.

NEC, of course, a major japanese electronics manufacturer, number 10 worldwide in semiconductors (and one of the very few doing better in the last couple of years rather than worse)

In the US, NEC has little brand recognition anymore, but in Asia their PC division rules. They are also cool in laptops and other areas. In the US perhaps their Packard Bell brand is the better known in IT.

So I guess one of the 4 top DCinema projector manufacturers is european (Barco) and the other 3 are japanese (NEC, Sony and Christie/Ushio).

quote:
1992 April Ushio acquired projector division of Christie Electric Corp. and established Christie, Inc., as a xenon lamp production and sales base in the United States (Christie Digital Systems U.S.A, Inc.)

1999 September Ushio established Christie Digital Systems Canada, Inc. after the acquisition of the visual equipment division of Electrohome Ltd. of Canada.

2001 April Ushio restructured Christie Group (Christie Digital Systems, Inc., Christie Digital Systems U.S.A., Inc. and Christie Digital Systems Canada, Inc.)

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-30-2009, 01:50 PM:

Andrew:

So how did the install go? Are you up and running yet? Any set-up or operational issues to report?

Inquiring minds want to know... [Big Grin]

Posted by Andrew Bangs (Member # 4938) on 05-02-2009, 01:20 AM:

Well the install went relatively smooth. We did have one issue today but it is minor in relative terms our scheduler on one of the projectors has a funky 2hr delay. We programmed the movie to start at 13:27:00 but nothing happened at 13:27. so we started it by hitting the play button the movie ran smooth for a total run time of 1:46:00 then at 15:27:00 it started playing on it's own we had some patrons come out saying the movie had already started when it was supposed to start in ten minutes. We checked and stopped it then ran it through the last cues to et it ready for the next show but we deleted the Scheduled start times and just started it on the computer for the rest of the night. other wise It is a beautiful picture and nice crisp sound. Our Second Projector played it's schedule fine all day the Projectionist just had to turn it on in the morning and off at night. Wonderful!!!

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 05-02-2009, 02:22 AM:

And the final models of equipment are......?