Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Moving a digital projector

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Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 04-20-2009, 02:56 AM:

I've been kicking an idea around and want some feedback.
A multiplex is installing only one 3-D system. Since this is an expensive system, it makes sense to use it as much as possible. After the first week, could the machine be rolled over to a smaller house and show 3-D on that screen?
Obviously the server would have to be in the pedestal and the screen sizes within zoom/lamp size range.
Would this work? It would be best to have all digital houses, but that's not going to happen. I'm trying to get the most use out of the gear, and also to avoid showing a 2-D film print after the first week.
Thanks

Posted by Kurt Zupin (Member # 2751) on 04-20-2009, 03:16 AM:

Ok, Why not just play it in the same theatre? Why move it around? Theoretically you could move it, but then you have to worry about proper ventilation, having a 3D screen in the theatre that your moving it to. You say you don't want to play a 2D print but your still going to have the same amount of 2D screens to your 1 3D screen. So I don't really understand that argument.

I would just save your time and hassle and just leave it in the one theatre.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2009, 05:48 AM:

Yes, it's a very good idea to have a smaller house with 3-D as well. Thats one advantage of the Master Image system! Purchase one complete 3-D system and one 2-D system for a smaller house. The 2-D system is considerably LESS MONEY to purchase. The Master Image can be easily rolled between different screens and brought back on line in just several minutes. There's just the AC plug and GPIO connector. Both houses will need silver screens. I just completed installing 2 more Dolby 3-D systems in plex's that already had one. Each Dolby system was installed into a 2-D system that had been installed nearly 2 years ago. The customer took advantage of the "free glasses" offer that Dolby has going.

Mark

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-20-2009, 06:10 AM:

It's always about capacity -- prints are always moved based on what kind of sales a title is doing -- assuming the complex has auditoria with varying seating capacities. So if you are opening a title that is expected to be a tent-pole, you want to move that into a high capacity room.

As far as the server, there is no reason that it needs to move with the projector as long as each position is properly wired. The stack venting is just a matter a mechanical design that allows easy attaching and detaching. Same thing with alignment --a simple mateing arrangement with male and female rails or alignement pins can easily be designed.

We had a 70mm installation that needed to be moved from one side of the booth where the ports faced an indoor theatre to the other side of the same booth where the ports faced an outdoor courtyeard theatre; it worked beautifully -- and this was with a dual 70mm JJs in a change-over system, both on a single dolly platform with big rubber wheels. The platform had four "male" pipes that protruded out of the front of the platform which slid into slightly larger "female" receptor pipes that were attached to the walls at both positions. Turnbuckles were rigged in the base of the platform so that fine adjustment could be made once the unit was slid into place. All interconnecting wiring was made with three imbilecle.

It was done with two 70mm film projectors, and it was a fairly easy conversion from one "booth" to the other. The requirement was that if it were to rain in the outdoor theatre during a show, the entire system would be changed over to the indoor theatre in 15 minutes. At first the rectifiers were also on a dolly so they could be moved with the projectors, but it was decided that they could better be located equidistance to the each position so that in the even of a change-over to the other theatre, the xenon lamp could be kept burning, thus eliminating any need to power down, cool and then wait to be able to strike. My understanding is that they have never had do to the move due to rain, but we did test it out a few times and it worked flawlessly.

If it can be done effectively with a two 70mm projectors, surely a more compact digital unit would be a walk in the park -- you should be able to make a switch fast enough to do it between shows.

Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 04-20-2009, 06:20 AM:

The reason we'd want to move to a smaller house is that most films drop off steeply after the first week, and since we only have one 3-D system, we're stuck with a slow film in the biggest house, if we want to offer it in 3-D. Yes, we could play it in 35mm, but 3-D brings in the $$,according to the press. We're using Dolby so we don't need to use a silver screen. Ventilation isn't a problem.
Mark's got a good idea, but we're looking at using the same machine in two auditoriums.
We're only getting one digital projector, so if we could roll it to a smaller house we'd still get the 3-D increase in business and free up a larger house for a 2-D release. I'd love to install all new digital projectors, but ain't gonna happen. We're keeping our 35mm machines in all houses.
Obviously there is a hassle factor that will determine if we try this more than once,, but I'm interested if anyone's done it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2009, 09:51 AM:

I agree that running it in 3-D would generally generate more $$, it may also make your location look more favorable to the studios as well. Being able to let 3-D content play out is why one of our customers added more 3-D screens at two different locations. 3-D seems to do either real well or real bad depending on the area.

It's certainly very easy to set up a projector to be moved between screens and digital affords this far more than moving around film projectors. Install twist lock power oulets for the 3-Phase and use a multi pin military style Amphenol connector for your automation interface. Put the server and ancillary stuff in a 4 foot roll around rack... Raxess makes deep 4 foot racks while Mid-Atlantic is stuck at 28"! Now 28" depth is barely enough depth for the DSS-100. Everything else... the stuff in the server rack... can usually run off either 220 or 120 volts AC, which ever is convenient. You may need to purchase a second lens if your present lens won't cover properly in both auditoriums.... or you can simply re-mask the screen if it's a pretty close match. Re-masking it always the less expensive option. If you're stuck getting a new lens then I suggest you look closely at the new line of Konica-Minolta lenses from Christie as they have slightly more zoom coverage then most D-Cinema lenses have. You can also call Christie(Jim Dukes or Jim Graeton)and have them e-mail you a copy of their new and very comprehensive lens calculator. Run your info through this and it'll tell you exactly what is going to happen(and then some) with your present lens and lamp. You may also need to upgrade your exhaust system in that second auditorium to accomodate filma and digital and properly cool a large 3-D lamp. I highly reccomend using Fan-Tech FKD series in line exhaust blowers. They're super reliable, very quiet, and come with a 2 year warranty. The present Dayton (now Chineese made) blowers from Grainger have become extremely lousy and we won't use them any longer.

Mark

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-20-2009, 10:04 AM:

Grainger also sells Fan Tech in my area.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2009, 11:12 AM:

Yea, they do here too but at a much higher price(about 200 bucks) than you can mail order them for... You can also get free shipping. If you need it in a pinch Graingers will have it but if order time allows mail order for this sort of stuff saves alot of $$$. Fantech FDK10XL I've ctually seen this blower mail order priced as low as 400 bucks...

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-20-2009, 11:50 AM:

One small detail to keep in mind when moving digital projectors is the MCGD values. Changing projector settings for the corresponding screens is simple, but the color measurements for the Dolby 3D system itself are more involved than selecting another measurment. I'm not sure if there's a way to simply "load" another set of values. You may be forced to run through the calibration procedure each time you move the projector. Someone else may be able to elaborate more on this, I haven't calibrated enough systems to know for sure.

The color differences between screens may be very small and you could get away with not changing a thing, but if you want the most accurate color representation on the screens you use for 3D, you'll want to adjust the gamut to match when you move the projector.

Other than that, roll-around projection seems to be easily done. With the ease of lens-shift and cropping within the digital projector, setup on each screen could be completed within 30 minutes.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-20-2009, 12:25 PM:

The MCGD and screen files are easy on digital.

Just load in as many channels (Macros) as the site needs. Most can handle about 48 or more by now. Thus, when you move the projector, you also select the appropriate channel. This can even be done in the server so that the right channel/macro is selected.

Steve

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-20-2009, 02:30 PM:

Steve,

I should have specified more that my concern was with values within the Dolby 3D equipment. Since the values are stored within show player, I'm not sure how easy it is to switch between different values, and I doubt that switching can be done via the macro setup within the projector.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-20-2009, 02:59 PM:

Nope...the DSP100 only stores one set of parameters BUT one can save several sets and make uploading that part of the move.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2009, 04:32 PM:

People make a far bigger deal out of measured MCGD then they need to and calling in your tech to re-load different files in the DFC-100 is ludicrous at best. The biggest differences would be in the filter wheel itself since it's such a critical piece and the color correction for that as well as left eye/right eye light levels will remain constant as set in the DFC-100 no matter what screen you move it to.

The last several Christie projectors I measured in 2-D were so dead on accurate with the factory setting that it was scarey. There was more or less no measurable difference. At Christie they do use the same 1.8 gain Harkness surface that we've been using and that I am sure does help the situation. Also, measurable differences in different PRESENT MANUFACTURE varying focal length lenses is so minute as to be non existant. If you use the same screen surface and port glass in both rooms and set the light loc to give about 16fl do your 2-D MCGD's and use them as the setting point for 3-D You won't see any visible difference in color reproduction. If a person can see color differences of .005 to .01 then they are pretty good but I'd bet that no one here can and thats the sort of final MCGD differences I'm getting on the meter between houses from one machine. BTW: Those small differences are why color space meters exist!

As to the Master Image there is no 3-D file MCGD correction needed. Once you do 2-D measurements you're done. Their filters are so neutral as not to influence the MCGD at all. I couldn't measure any nor have they ben able to and thats why moving this equipment around is so easy.

One thing I am seeing on 2 year old Christie projectors already are drastically faded heat filters... mainly the one at the exit point of the lamp house or the first heat filter in line. If that heat filter is not kept up to par then the light will attack the next filter in line... the Dolby Wheel! Seems its a small concentrated beam that only uses an area on the filter about the size of a 50 cent piece... the filter would probably live longer if the light beam hitting it were wider. I doubt that concentrated beam is good for the Dolby wheel!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-20-2009, 08:35 PM:

I never said call a tech back in...just have the files on a local computer that has the DSP100 software. Sure...one could go in and muck it up but they don't need the software to do that in a general sense. And, since there would be reference files with the tech...it would be easy to put back. I don't think too many would be so bold to mess with the matrix that makes up the color correction.

I have not experienced the same unifority that Mark has. Port glass and screen are also big factors in the color though certainly the biggest single correction is for the color wheel.

Now as to Mid Atlantic Racks (my personal favorite)...a 27" deep rack is 4" deeper than the DSS100...certainly you can have your wires bend a 4" radius and not have issue. I sure can. And that would be if you limited yourself to a PTRK series. However...if you were to use a WRK-SA series, you could then go out to 32" deep racks and put caster bases on them.

Steve

Posted by Tristan Lane (Member # 1169) on 04-20-2009, 08:54 PM:

My thought on the MCGD debate in regards to Dolby 3D is that if the color correction needed between screens was negligible and hard to notice, they manufacturer would have left calibration out. Instead they could correct the color within the content itself with each eye's frame being offset to compensate for the filter wheel and glasses.

I'm led to believe that the differences between environments can affect the outcome of the gamut to a point where it becomes noticeable.

Of course, the same could be said for RealD. If the characteristics of the Zscreen and glasses were consistent, color correction could be the same from screen to screen and not require measuring through the Zscreen and glasses. An offset could be applied to your current MCGD values and it would be "corrected"

Alas, this is not the case. Why fault them for trying to keep things as consistent as possible? White is 314 x 351, not 310 x 348, and so on. If all theaters align in the same way, the product being shown will be as consistent and correct as possible.

Mark, my one complaint with the MasterImage system is that the damn thing is so bulky that many theaters would be required to move their projectors back from the port window to make space for the big box. Also, A TON of theaters have projectors installed with flex conduits running across the floor directly where the big box needs to sit. This can create a whole handful problems with extending or rerouting wiring.

EVERY 3D system has it's drawbacks, and I believe the exhibitor will pay equally for any of them either in the short term or long term.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2009, 09:37 PM:

Steve... Am just trying to keep costs in line on racks... sure the more expensive line is nice but hard to justify for a simple server system in a booth. Raxess makes an identical quality rack to Mid Atlantic. I used to sell both brands back in Chicago amnd we do at CLACO. I finally weaned my boss off Home Equipment racks! Raxess just happens to have a deeper rack available in the less expensive line. Dolby sends out 28" deep racks and it's a bit tight on the back of the DSS-100 where the power cords go in. You're also exhausting quite a bit of hot air from the power supplies into a very shallow space... The aux fan that Dolby includes with the rack is very definately needed. At one location I cut holes directly behind the fans and installed guards so the hot air can exhaust straight out of the rack.

Give software to the booth mongers... NEVER!

Tristian,
As for front space for MAster Image I can't remember what they like you to have but if you turn the unit around you c an get the shroud of the wheel right up to the lens and I'm pretty sure that 14" depth is more then enough. UNless you're using a 1.0 ratio lens the image on the port is still smallish... as-is the Master Image filter size.. so getting the wheel as close as is possible to the lens is mandatory. So far I haven't encountered any space problems with down to the 1.25 ratio lens.

RE: Color space and MCGD. If both screens are manufactured at the same time they usually come out very close to each other. Of course it's prefered to have color files for each 3-D location, and if you have some very poorly manufactured screens (like the new washable one) then you may have to load in proper files for each room... otherwise if the two rooms measure very close just run with one MCGD. If the port glass is off at one screen then get the same exact port glass for both locations involved... port glass is not that expensive and if cut fomr the same sheet of glass they will match perfectly!

Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 04-21-2009, 05:04 AM:

Wouldn't an Anvil (or similar) ATA-style road case (with casters) make more sense than a Middle Atlantic-style rack? They are built more durably and have handles and covers to make them easy to move.

I used one of these for the sound system for my 35mm home setup (processor, amplifiers, monitor, CD player) and occasional moves are super-easy.

How easy/hard is it to change the lenses on a [dlp]

projector? Do they have some sort of bayonet mount, or must the unit be disassembled in some way?

They aren't cheap, though.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-21-2009, 08:36 AM:

Yea, if we were moving between different locations but we are talking about moving within the same booth. Lenses dismount with the flip of a lever if you don't have a MALM on the front. Barco is a bit more difficult but still pretty easy. The new series of Christie lenses is supposed to eliminate the need for the MALM in most cases.

MArk

Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 04-21-2009, 03:15 PM:

The plan was to mount the server and 3-D controller in the pedestal that the projector sits on, run AC,audio,and automation lines back to the sound rack and dimmers. We'd be using the pedestal that Barco supplies.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-22-2009, 11:22 AM:

On the BARCO base be sure you have enough of the special(Metric) hardware to mount things properly. This hardware is very difficult to find... On the DSS-100 (if you have one) I also reccomend supporting it at the rear.

I mounted a complete Dolby Server system with NA-10 once in a DP-100 base.... The NA-10 had to go in the rear.

Mark