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Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-27-2009, 08:05 PM:
 
Hi,

I am involved in a (new) low-cost cinema theater in Egypt. I'm looking for a cheap 2k digital projector (tickets will be around 2 dollars, 50 / 75 and 150 seats auditoriums).

What would you recommend me? And why?

Catalin
 
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-27-2009, 08:57 PM:
 
I think you might have to wait until used equipment becomes available. That will probably be the only way you will find the words "cheap" and "digital" both applying to the same projector.

Depending on how much of a hurry you're in, you might want to start off with film and then convert later. Film will still be available for quite some time.
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-27-2009, 09:30 PM:
 
Film projection is economically unfeasable here, since we'll start with only one (small) auditorium.

There is no (independent) distributor in Egypt and the market is split between two virtually integrated companies, that produce movies, distribute and screen them. They don't share with each other anything and they don't allow their "independent" theaters to screen movies from the other camp. Anyway because these 2 behemots own more than 90% of the theaters there is little room left for such "independents".

Digital is the only way to escape their tight embrace.
 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 04-27-2009, 09:53 PM:
 
Not so.

If they can stop you getting a 35mm print, they can certainly do the same with digital.

Sounds like your investors should try another venture.
 
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-27-2009, 10:20 PM:
 
I know its not what you want to hear, but John and Mike gives good advice. This project doesn't look good.
 
Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 04-28-2009, 06:09 AM:
 
Catalin, the first questions you should ask yourself are from where will you be getting your prints?
What kind of format can you get?
Can you get first run movies?
Are you going more on an "art house" approach?
Single screen with 150 sounds really small for a distributor to give some thought of opening a big movie there. What do you mean by produce, distribute and screen them? Do you only show local productions? Don't theaters in Egypt show films from USA or Europe? Don't you have film distributors in Egypt?
Demetris
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-28-2009, 08:46 AM:
 
First of all some correction: when I wrote above "virtually integrated companies" what I really meant to say (at 3 AM...) was "VERTICALLY integrated companies".

There are no film distributors in Egypt.

There are screenings of Foreign (i.e., non-Egyptian, non-Arabic) movies, 99% of them American movies but not so many. I would "guesstimate" that during a whole year there would be about 50 Egyptian movies and 10-15 American movies. During the summer period (which is the most lucrative here by far) there is virtually no American movie being screened (the Censorship office doesn't give permits and the cinemas anyway won't screen them). That's because the common ownership of cinema theaters, "distributors", movie production studios works towards maximizing profits from their own production. Sort of American cinema industry between the world wars.

If we start, we'll start with Arabic non-Egyptian movies (movies made in Lebanon, Syria, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia), Brit movies and American movies. We believe we identified weaknesses in the current monopolistic (duopolistic, to be exact) market situation that will enable us to grow as long as our financial footprints stays small and we serve market segments that are ignored by the current market leaders.
 
Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 04-28-2009, 09:44 AM:
 
Can you even get digital prints of the stuff coming out of those countries? I think 35mm would be safer, WAY cheaper, and give you access to more films.
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-28-2009, 10:50 AM:
 
Getting digital prints from Algeria, Tunisia, Morocco is (relatively) easy, they are all co-productions made with French money (for political and historical reasons).

Lebanon... not sure yet (still researching).

How could a 35mm print be cheaper? It would involve at least $2,000 + more expensive mailing costs + longer time with customs and the Censorship office.

A HDD can be easily me Fedex'ed, won't be stopped at the customs at all, and we can deal with the Censorship office faster and without risking scratches on our only copy.
 
Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 04-28-2009, 11:28 AM:
 
Are the movies distributed "Digitaly" on D-Cinema format or are they some cheap MGPEG or AVI resolution converted to standard DVD for playback?
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-28-2009, 12:28 PM:
 
Most of them are available on Blu-ray i.e., 1080p. Going for a 2k projector would cover all bases, tho.

As for the timing, keep in mind Egypt is not a major market for theater: Slumdog Millionaire is only now playing in theaters over here (but some other, like Bond movies, do start more or less at the same time with their worldwide release date).

> Catalin, the first questions you should ask yourself are
> from where will you be getting your prints?

From abroad only; in time I am sure we'll be able to get print from the smaller local movie studios.

> What kind of format can you get?

Blu-ray and 2k

> Can you get first run movies?

Yes

> Are you going more on an "art house" approach?

Not with the first theater. As soon as we can cluster a few auditoriums in a multiplex we want one auditorium to be "art house / off mainstream" only (with another one being kids-friendly only).

> Single screen with 150 sounds really small for a
> distributor to give some thought of opening a big
> movie there.

The "distributor" in such case would be the MENA (Middle East and Northern Africa) department of an international distributor (or, sometimes, the European department). For most of them would be about either sending us by DHL a hard-drive or not having their movie touching Egypt at all.

> What do you mean by produce, distribute and screen them?

It means here in Egypt there are 2 big companies that have 80% of movie producing, 100% of movie distribution and 90-95% of cinema seats. They don't screen each others productions (or imported movies), and any affiliated cinema theater can't screen movies from the other giant, either.

> Do you only show local productions?

At this moment our (first) cinema theater is not yet done (not even close to).

> Don't you have film distributors in Egypt?

Nope. Cinemas screen the movies they receive from their headquarter or, if they are the 5% not owned by the 2 local giants, they screen the movies they receive from the local giant they are "signed" with.
 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 04-28-2009, 05:30 PM:
 
I would say you're going way over the top going 2K.

If you're happy to originate on blu-ray, then why not buy yourself something like a Panasonic PT-D5600E or the like? That way you're getting a decent (albeit obviously not up to 2K quality, but certainly without the price-tag and baggage) and source your movies from 'independent' distributors on MPEG2, DVD and Blu-Ray.

At least then you'll be able to see what works for your area without committing too much cash on the projection side.
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-28-2009, 06:30 PM:
 
Interesting idea, John.

But... if this Panasonic PT-D5600E would be 1080/p24 I would have recommended buying it eyes closed.

However it's only 1,024 x 768 pixels :-( and it doesn't show 1080p/24 as accepted input (only 1080p/50 and 1080p/60). And it's 4:3!

Decisions, decisions...

I'll google for xga digital projectors 16:9 1080p/24, let's see.
 
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 04-28-2009, 07:20 PM:
 
depending on how much light you need, check out MiT's new projector, the HD3500, they are stackable for more light and I think they have a higher output model on the horizon. 1080p.
http://www.movingimagetech.com/
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-28-2009, 07:54 PM:
 
Mike, who is this MiT company? Most Chinese manufacturers have their websites looking this bad, but my guess is that you won't recommend MiT without knowing they are worth it.
 
Posted by Mike Babb (Member # 1379) on 04-28-2009, 08:12 PM:
 
MiT is a well recognized company in the cinema world, maybe others will add their opinion, Bevan, their VP can chime in if he wants to but they make all kinds of stuff, I haven't personally installed the projector but you seem very concerned with cost and I haven't seen many 1080p projectors with the amount of lumens in their price range. You should research it and see what you think. I usually recommend my customers go with a cinema grade DLP so they have the option of playing first run hollywood content but it sound like it may not be an option for you?
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-28-2009, 09:05 PM:
 
Mike, I can't find anywhere the price for MiT iMAGE Pro HD-3500 (is this the projector you were pointing me to?).

Do you have any idea what is it?
 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 04-28-2009, 10:03 PM:
 
quote: Catalin Braescu
And it's 4:3!

quote: Me
something like a Panasonic PT-D5600E or the like?
Look around a bit to find what suits your needs. My Panasonic is a fine machine and does a fabulous job.

If you're stuck on getting a 2K system in there and you're going to charge $2 admission in a 150 seat auditorium...don't bother even opening the doors. Keep your initial expenses down and you may make it to the end of year one in one piece.
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-28-2009, 10:20 PM:
 
It has a color wheel... I don't care how many colors there are on the wheel or how fast they spin it there will always be artifacts. I get the impression these are made from the innards used in rear screen tvs. Not to my liking.

Mark
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-28-2009, 10:27 PM:
 
What's a color wheel? And how does it affect the projected image quality?
 
Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-28-2009, 10:39 PM:
 
Don't worry too much about the color wheel.

We over here are just overly sensitive to some issues. Extrangely, we are quite oblivious to others when we have no choice [Big Grin]

Color wheel is a "technology" used on cheaper projectors so they don't have to use 3 DLP chips and, thus, can be made for cheaper. For some people, when they move their eyes very fast while looking at the image, they can briefly perceive color "rainbows" in the image. The faster the color wheel and the newer the projector, the lesser this effect is noticed by fewer people.

In practice, it's perfectly fine. The alternatives either don't exist or are far more expensive or have other drawbacks.

There are plenty of full hd (1080p) projectors capable of decent blu-ray reproduction and similar quality to 2K for small-ish theaters.

i.e. this Mitsubishi FL6900U doesn't use a color wheel

http://www.mitsubishi-presentations.com/products/projectors/FL6900U.html

could give your a full HD picture at good light levels (12fl) on a 5x3m screen for about $10.000

The thing is that they are not really all that designed for heavy use in theater. Lamps last some 2-4000 hours and cost around $500. But they also don't usually come with a lens that allows for long throw (i.e. they have to be placed only at 14m or closer).

There are other lenses available for it, but they are like $2000.

If you really wanted top quality, you would factor that this projector would probably degrade after about 5-6 years of theater use (hopefully, if it lasts that long). But in 5 or 6 years, I'm sure you would be able to find even better projectors for cheaper to replace it with.

There are slightly cheaper projectors for even smaller screens, like Optoma TX1080 (uses the latest types of color wheels) for around $4000 is also able to do full HD at good light levels on aprox. 5x3m screens from distances of around 10m with the standard lens. Lamp would burn at around 2-3000 hours, for a replacement at around $400.

http://www.optomausa.com/product_detail.asp?product_id=396

Let us know the aprox. screen size you are thinking about.

Distributors in Europe won't allow you to get blu-ray copies until the blu-ray has been released to the home market, of course, but perhaps that's not a problem for you.

You could get a server setup to convert from Dcinema packages to this projector if you get some distributor to give you film packages that are not encrypted. Of course, all major movies, specially americans, would not give you one of those. But you may be able to get some independent ones.

If you want to buy a "real" DCI 2K projector, ask your supplier first if it is fully DCI compliant. If it is not, get a written promise of how much it will cost to upgrade to it.

If you are hoping to show major "first run" movies with it, perhaps you won't be able to in the future, as many movie studios at some point are likely to start to refuse delivering DCI packages (hard drives) to theaters with equipment that is not 100% DCI compliant. If they are willing to send you blu-ray discs, then you are fine with any projector.
 
Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 04-29-2009, 03:41 AM:
 
The only one you should consider would be this Sanyo PDG-DHT100L if you can afford almost 17K Euro. As far as real D-Cinema I would think the Barco DP1200 or DP1500 depending on your screen size. Can you get films from Lebanon? I believe I have a contact for a film distributor there.
Demetris
 
Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 04-29-2009, 03:52 AM:
 
Ok Catalin do you really have the say US $80,000 dollars plus for the projector, and the additional money for the sound and speakers? acoustics? What about the money for the seats? fire exits? sprinklers and fire fighting gear?

How much of the ticket price ($2) will go to the distributor, 75% ($1.50) will the percentage go down as the weeks progress? How many weeks do they expect you to run the film on a no share basis. ie one screen one film only. These issues affect us, but may be different for you and your situation.

Cinema over here is a small margin business. The money in the west is made out of candy and soft drinks, The film really just draws the people to your venue. What will you be selling for the real profit in your venture?

Here in Australia we use e cinema as an alternitive to 35mm Panasonic 5100 is a common ecinema choice (I think this is the model John was talking about above). Its the one we have at our cinemas (all screens have both 35mm and video). We get no complants from our us$12 paying customers when we use the ecinema gear.

It is only 720p but can fill 600" screens. Most video projectors are limited to about 300".

If your screen is only say 11 x 20ft wide or smaller perhaps a cheap 1080p Epson 3ccd 3000 would do for around $us 2000.

Perhaps you should talk to the distributors, censors, and local authorities/fire regulators and share your experiences on this forum with us. We dont really understand your countries laws, regulations and traditions.
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-29-2009, 05:18 AM:
 
Demetris:

> The only one you should consider would be this Sanyo PDG-DHT100L if you can
> afford almost 17K Euro

Fortunately there is always the US market as a cheaper supply alternative: B&H offers it for $17,000 + lens

> I believe I have a contact for a film distributor there.

I'll never say no to a good contact :-)

Cameron:

> Ok Catalin do you really have the say us$80,000 dollars plus for the projector,

Nope, so far from it. Even if we're wildly successful I can't imagine ever paying that much even for a 300-seats auditorium. It just isn't financially viable.

> and the aditional money for the sound and speakers?

We're not trying to replicate the best cinema experience geared towards audiophiles. What we're trying to do is offer the Egyptian audience a good image with relatively good sound (but loud) at the price point they are wiling to pay.

> What about the money for the seats?

For the first theater the seats will be non-foldable, PVC covered. We think we can make it at about $40 per seat (that would be about $3,000 for a 75-seats auditorium).

> fire exits?

The fire exit(s) will be a secondary door going to the same lobby. I don't see it as a significant expense. Perhaps I don't understand the question? Please let me know.

> sprinklers and fire fighting gear

That's the job of the building owner *BUT* we'll also add our own. That's less than $2,000 per auditorium (obviously local prices here are below what you guys encounter in Oz, US or Europe).

> How much of the ticket price $2 will go to the distributer, 75% or $1.50?

To paraphrase Rhett Butler: "Frankly, my dear, we have no idea". Well, not yet. But if other theaters can do it within this price, with their moronic business practices (see below for an explanation), then we can do it too.

> What sort of seat are you thinking of using?

We'll have a BUDGET and a PREMIUM version of our cinema theaters.

The Budget theaters will be quite barebone: non-folding chairs covered with PVC (velour is easily scratchable and stainable and harder to clean FAST), not much money on decorations, up to $2 per ticket (actually a bit less, 10 Egyptian Pounds mean about $1.77). We assume most or all our Budget theaters will be in 1-auditorium only versions. Our plan is to be able to start such under 100-seats with less than $20,000 and in less than 1 month from signing a lease. It's targeted at poor(er) neighborhoods. Sort of mini-McDonald's meets Ford T: highly standardized, cheap, fast, clean, safe bathroom, fast service.

Our first theater will most likely be a budget one.

The Premium theaters will be McDonald's meets Hard Rock Cafe: highly standardized, full of cinema memorabilia, clean, safe bathroom, plenty of choices, fast service. We'll have folding chars covered with PVC (velour is easily scratchable and stainable and harder to clean FAST), at least 4 screens. Our plan is to be able to start such theater with 4 screens and up to a total of 600 seats under 45 days and under $140,000. There is no chance in hell we'll have these money ourselves therefore we'll need to work out the bank dilemma here and strike a deal with the projector manufacturer (which should be doable within reasonable limits). Up to $3.5 per ticket.

Now, I assume it has some entertaining value to explain a bit the environment in Egypt and some of our choices in our plans.

First of all, just to make a few things clear, I am talking about Egypt but I am Romanian; my name is Catalin (Braescu) but despite what many assume I am a male, Catalin is a male name in my native language / country (the female form would be Catalina like in Italian or Spanish). I'm a movie producer and i've been in Egypt for almost 4 years already.

Most of the screens here sell tickets at 20 or 25 Egyptian Pounds = $3.5 to $4.4, offering velour folding seats. And they operate this way (I'll now describe a multiplex, which is the funniest of all): assuming the theater has 6 screens, all screens start at the same time. This means if customers missed the starting time for 10 minutes, they'll have to wait another 2 hours till they can watch anything.

The cashiers are busy for 15-20 minutes then they have more than 90 minutes of do-nothing chat fiesta (and it's always 1 cashier/screen plus a supervisor). Despite all cashiers having their own POS, cashier No. 2 will never sell you the tickets for film No. 3 which is sold by the colleague sitting next (I have no idea why), therefore it's quite common to have 4 cashiers doing nothing and one cashier dealing with a 10-customers queue.

The entrance in the auditorium area is guarded by several ushers, for the simple reason one usher can't be usually trusted enough to be a honest Cerberus. Moreover, in front of every auditorium entrance there is another usher, who will insist on guiding the customers to their designated seats even if there are 3 tickets sold in a 300-seats auditorium. They expect a tip for such service (this tip is almost mandatory).

The popcorn and soda selling place has usually 4-5 employees while only one or two are doing any work.

Each auditorium has its own projectionist, sitting there during the whole performance. Movies have a 5-7 minutes entracte (mid-time break).

The sound is quite good (as compared with multiplexes I know in Bucharest (RO), Vienna (AT), Paris or Narbonne (FR), many of these theaters are Dolby Digital or THX.

However, the optical side of projection is beyound describing: most of the times they are unfocused enough to make titles / subtitles visibly blurred (add to this the low quality of SHOOTING of Egyptian movies and you'll get a fascinating visual experience... ).

No loyalty cards / membership, no discounts, no nothing. No title or poster for non-Arabic movies are translated. They are also subtitled.

The toilets are usually quite bad (yet not abysmal as in non-cinema places). Most of the time there is no toilet paper and I never count on finding soap, either.

The high admission prices sends away the potential viewers who are not rich enough to afford them (keep in mind that a regular monthly salary in the cities is about 600 Egyptian Pounds, a family living off 2 salaries totaling 900 Egyptian Pounds is quite lucky, and average families have 5+ members; remember the tickets are 20 to 25 Egyptian Pounds each). The lack of translation for titles and posters (plus the difference in alphabet) is definitely intimidating for many potential customers. The subtitling means non-Arabic movies can't be watched by the illiterate even if they have the money (illiteracy or practical illiteracy is still more than 15-20% in the cities). The theaters are placed in high-traffic malls and commercial centers in affluent areas (for obvious reasons).

Now, what we want is to go to the underserved districts with our budget theaters and to the affluent districts with our premium theaters. In our multiplexes we'll start the movies in serial way (i.e., at an similar time between each other), so that customers can always count they don't have to wait forever even if they are late. We won't have numbered seats which will make the tip trips obsolete. We will sell bar coded tickets and the entrance should be based on turnstiles with bar code readers (with one guy to watch them without interfering with the access control itself, which will be self-service). For a budget cinema with only one screen we assume a 3-person shift will be more than enough. We'll pay our stuff about 50% more than equivalent positions at the 2 local incumbents because we want them to value their job, be more active and have an incentive to stay with us more. Yet our payroll per seats will be actually substantially less than that of the competition.

We want to replicate the "McDonald's bathroom experience in the Middle East" = if you are in the Middle East and you need a bathroom, you go to the nearest McDonald's if you want to survive ;-) There might be other places just as clean (small chance, tho), but when in need one doesn't have the time to hunt for clean bathrooms, just goes to the place that's positively safe and clean.

I am writing all these here because I feel your criticism and input has great value, even when you say words I may not like to hear. I am a serial entrepreneur and I know experienced unbiased advice is worth gold.

So... shoot!
 
Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-29-2009, 06:52 AM:
 
I agree with Demetris that the Sanyo PDG-DHT100L would be an excellent choice, but about twice more expensive as the others. The lamps are around $550 and they last about 2000 hours. Each projector uses two lamps.

The projector itself is more solid than average, with 3 years warranty and expected to last 6-7 years of constant use (25.000 hours of operation). You may need an additional lens, as they are sold separately [Wink]

You can also put two of the cheaper projectors together to obtain the same light levels as a large one for larger screen sizes.

If you use two "cheapish" projectors per screen instead of a single expensive one, you have the advantage that you could buy just one for back-up for all your cinemas and ship it out to whatever screen has a broken one, while the shows can continue with a single projector, but with half the light, which may still be ok until the replacement arrives.

In Spain, it's common to get theaters with 5 or fewer screens to start all the movies at exactly or about the same time, 3 times a day on all but the largest cities. Patrons are more "movie oriented". They don't say: "Let's go to the movies". They say: "Let's go to watch Wolverine". And everybody knows they'll be a screen in the first-run theaters (the majority) showing Wolverine at around 6, 8:15 and 10:30 (depending on each market, this changes a bit). You then check for the exact time in case the movie is extra long or something.

This would be the schedule for your average 7 screen multiplex in a 850.000 city which has around 40 screens total over here:

http://cinesa.es/cines/cines2.aspx?id=741

Tickets at around 5€-7€. Once a week, on a slow day, usually wednesday, all theaters lower prices a bit to say 3.50€-5€.

I feel that making sure you can get enough (interesting) films to show may be your first priority. Hope you are sure you can find distributors that would serve your area and that you can get non-dci-encrypted cinema content (i.e. blu-rays or tapes).

Then you can use these types of projectors.

Otherwise, it's $50.000 and above for each screen, plus lamps $700-$1500 for 800-1700 hours of use. Plus necessary stuff like servers (dci players) etc.

Probably not economically viable. Factor maintenance costs, electricity, etc.

You better sell a lot of expensive popcorn [Big Grin]

[ 04-29-2009, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Julio Roberto ]
 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 04-29-2009, 07:19 AM:
 
quote: Catalin Braescu
with relatively good sound (but loud)
Yes, always go for loud over quality. [Eek!]
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-29-2009, 05:10 PM:
 
John, if I may ask, what can you screen in Australia using your Panasonic? According to the opinions expressed here, no DCI = no releases from the majors.
 
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 04-29-2009, 08:55 PM:
 
None of the majors will go out with files for the Panasonic...only independent distributors.

That being said, we were offered Slumdog Millionaire for it, Vicky Cristina Barcelona etc. The same distributor of Slumdog (Icon) also released 'Knowing' here. Not sure if that was available on MPEG2 but others here in Oz may chime in to say yes or no.

If you want to screen Wolverine (or the like) you're going to have to go 35mm...or DCI. I would strongly suggest you consider finding a way to access 35mm prints and go that way if you want to run the Studio stuff. There's no way you're going to see a return if you go DCI...it's just too expensive at the moment for what you're charging...especially if you're only a single screen.
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-29-2009, 09:25 PM:
 
[Initial content deleted due to understanding I greatly misunderstood something :-)]

I may look pedantic or asking newbie questions but the truth is... I really am a newbie (one good reason to thank you and the other guys on this forum for their patience with my questions).
 
Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-29-2009, 10:19 PM:
 
I think before you worry about technical stuff, find who is willing to give you films, in what format(s) and for how much. Then do the numbers and see what you can afford equipment wise.

You may get lucky obtaining decent content from Bollywood. They are doing HD lately, have tons of nice films, and some of their movies not touching religious issues may appeal to your audiences. Obviously not in arabic, mostly hindi and tamil, and I don't think the subtitling would be neither very enticing nor cheap, but it's an idea.

Does Egypt get a lot of hindi films on TV, etc?

Also, there is an arabic film festival in Spain, in case it's of any use to you.

http://www.amalfestival.com/
 
Posted by James B Gardiner (Member # 5151) on 04-30-2009, 07:40 AM:
 
Well, if your not DCI, there are quite a few eCinema solutions. I am involved in the development of the eCinema box on www.d-cinema.com.au It is the technology emerging Pictures use for its eCinema network. It supports a proprietary DRM system which Emerging is using for its content and a lot of new Classics they will now be distributing. Reputry (Spell) showing old films, is doing a come back. Especially as the eCinema costs, far less then DCI all round.

If you have a lot of local generated content, the use of eCinema type technologies is great. These devices are designed to work in with automation and be seamless with modern cinema practices. Can have content distributed to them over internet links. etc.

They support common codecs like MPEG2-HD, H.264, WMV. All at 1920x1080 (Not quite 2k 92% of the resolution.)
Ad some of these new 1920x1080 eCinema projectors, you can get great results at 1/8th the cost of a DCI system.

Don't get me wrong, DCI is the best and what the big guys should be doing, but in some cases, eCinema makes business sense, and it sounds like it does in your part of the world.

I am one of the developers of the CineX product, and not to blow my own horn, but it is known as the best of breed products in the eCinema market place. Do consider it.

James
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-30-2009, 10:18 AM:
 
quote: Julio Roberto
Don't worry too much about the color wheel.


Oh Julio... Thats bullshit! Color wheels suck big time and especially on fast moving imagery there are sure to be at least some artifacts clearly visible. There can be things in images that beat against the frequency of the filters rotational speed and frequency. This is one of the things that killed rear screen DLP television. It's especially a poor choice for any exhibition type projector. Best to stick with 3 something... be it LCD or DLP. One thing I would say is that single DLP projectors are fine for pre-show or anything thats "NOT IMPORTANT". I believe the MIT projector was built with pre-show in mind.

Mark
 
Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-30-2009, 11:35 AM:
 
Well, since I agree with this projector reviewer's comments, I'll save time and quote him. Remember how I always say we have to be careful about what we say when it comes to image (or sound) experience, as we all hear and see different things, and we may not be in the average "90%" of the population (or we may be, we have to find out). Some people are even tetrachromats and have 4 color receptors in their eyes, instead of the "normal" 3 or the 2 a significant number of people carry in their eyes (colorblinds).

quote:
One study suggested that 2–3% of the world's women might have the kind of fourth cone that lies between the standard red and green cones, giving, theoretically, a significant increase in color differentiation.[4] Another study suggests that as many as 50% of women and 8% of men may have four photopigments
So, anyway:

quote:
Some people are never bothered by DLP rainbows. I am one of them. I can watch a DLP projector all day long and never see visual distractions or develop eyestrain or headache. This is somewhat of a handicap for a projector reviewer. In years past I'd give a particular DLP projector a glowing review, only to get a flurry of email saying, "Evan, are you nuts? There are rainbows everywhere."

Individual sensitivity to rainbow artifacts can vary greatly. In addition to folks like me who don't see them at all, there are those who notice them from time to time, but don't find them to be much of a nuisance. On the other hand, there are some who are so bothered by them that they cannot watch a DLP projector under any circumstances.

In today's market, most business class DLP projectors have what is known as a 2x speed wheel. Many units designed for home entertainment have 2x wheels also. It is the 2x wheel that causes the most problems.

Texas Instruments and the manufacturers of DLP projectors have increased the speed of the sequential color updating in order to reduce the percentage of the population that is affected by rainbow artifacts. By using a different wheel design that uses two sets of red, green, and blue filters instead of one, the manufacturers are able to double the refresh rate on the screen. This wheel design is referred to as a 4x wheel, and it substantially reduces the number of people who are affected by rainbows. Our newest staff reviewer, Bill Livolsi, has trouble watching 2x DLP projectors for any length of time. But he has no problem at all with the 4x models.

I'm the type that can see rainbows on 2x and 4x color wheels easily when I move my eyes rapidly from, say, one corner to the opposite and there is white on the image. If I just stare at the screen from a distance, I can never see them.

Today's color wheels are usually 7 segment and they are 6X speed (10,800 RPM). The refresh rate is tuned to the wheel frequency and thus, I don't think that motion on the screen has any effect on rainbows if TI engineers knew what they were doing at all, which I believe they did.

Fast motion may help to show rainbows as with fast moving objects you are usually inclined to move your eyes rapidly to follow these objects as they move across the screen, but nothing else.

On the other side, if single DLP chip projectors were so bad as to be unuseable, I don't think they would've been selling all these years and new models continue to show up even this year. They would've been scrapped and 3 LCD taken over.

So perhaps is not such a big issue for a lot of people.

Except on Transformers. On that movie, your eyes will be moving all over the screen trying to follow whatever the hell is going on. It's bound to hit a rainbow on a white, high-contrast area for just about anyone [Wink]

[ 04-30-2009, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Julio Roberto ]
 
Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 04-30-2009, 11:41 AM:
 
For a long time I never noticed rainbows and figured it was no big deal. Then one time I was at Circuit City browsing and comparing DLPs and I happened to rapidly shift my eyes from one set to the one next to it, and bam, I saw rainbows. So I tried rapidly "shaking" my eyes and sure enough, rainbow city. That ended my interest in DLPs with color wheels.
 
Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-30-2009, 11:46 AM:
 
Yeah,

Rainbows are the result of your eyes moving a significant amount before the full 3 primary colors are flashed from the wheel. You get say 2 colors in one part of your retina and another 2 on another. Result: a "ghost" image of a different color noticeable specially around the edges of places that shouldn't have any color (black and white areas).

It can be noticed under other circunstances or places, of course, but that's your main issue there.

The solution is simple.

Don't move your eyes too much, like when you stare at your TV [Big Grin]

It's easier to not move your eyes much when the screen is small or you are sitting far away. If you are sitting in the first row of a 60' screen ... oh, well, you are bound to move your eyes fast sooner or later and hit a rainbow ...
 
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-30-2009, 11:54 AM:
 
quote: Julio Roberto
Don't move your eyes too much, like when you stare at your TV

[Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-30-2009, 12:16 PM:
 
Julio...DLP sales continue to decline...so it appears enough of the population has a problem with them (sigle chip). I know they really bother me...particularly if you catch them in your peripheral vision...wow to they rainbow. Also...showing B&W movies they can be pretty nasty.

LCD sales absolutely kill DLP sales in all but large-venue projectors/displays.

About all DLP single chip offers are some relatively low-cost BRIGHT pictures at decent resolution. As Mark said...good-enough for pre-show...not good enough to expect 100% of your patronage to sit through during a movie.

Steve
 
Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 04-30-2009, 12:29 PM:
 
Well, quoting myself:

quote: Julio Roberto
The alternatives either don't exist or are far more expensive or have other drawbacks.
And, as I said, the first choice I recommended was a $10k machine that didn't use color wheels and should do a fair job for the task. Given the constrains of the situation. I would also usually recommend using two stacked lcd small projectors over an expensive, single DLP one.

But yeah, before you commit to an expensive color wheel solution, make sure you test it under the closest conditions to your final usage scenario as you can (i.e. a large screen), sitting at close and also at medium distances from it, preferably displaying high contrast material rich in whites (i.e. a black and white movie) and moving your eyes around a lot.

Get 5 or 10 people and tell them to do the same. If you all can sit through the entire movie and not notice rainbows, well, the choice is yours.

E-cinema projectors based on single DLP chips with color wheels abound everywhere in the world, from Australia to China to India, so they must work well enough for enough people.

I guess.

He could also get a pair of these Epsons 6100 (no color wheel) at under $2000 each, put them together and get away with it on a small screen (up to 5m or so).

http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?oid=63077379

If needed, you can use a high gain screen. They are in vogue across the USA with digital projectors for 3-D, so they must be OK to use [Razz]

Don't worry about it. Figure anywhere from $5000 for a projection solution up all they way to $95.000, depending on the size of your auditorium and the quality level you are looking for (in resolution and brightness).

Once you have the films and the money, come back and we'll figure out which thing is the best buy at that point. Just don't forget you'll still need e-cinema servers, perhaps blu-ray or digital tape players, amplifiers, equalizers/crossovers, speakers, lights automation, screen, sound insulation treatments, seats, etc, etc.

[ 04-30-2009, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Julio Roberto ]
 
Posted by Catalin Braescu (Member # 5216) on 04-30-2009, 06:22 PM:
 
Disregarding the technology used, isn't stacking / doubling the projectors hard to perfectly align their images? And would that initial alignment stay the same during time? I would guess the lenses may "breathe" (not sure if that's the right term to sue here, I am borrowing it from shooting).
 
Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 05-01-2009, 07:49 AM:
 
Stacking in digital projectors is a known and proven art for many years. Not dissimilar from multi-slide projection multimedia shows.

Once again, don't worry about the technical aspects until later. They won't be an unsurmauntable issue even if they end up becoming a problem or a nuisance.

So the short answer is: most of the time, stacking is not a problem compared to single projection. With single projection, everynow and then, depending on the projector and the installation conditions, you may have to adjust focus, zoom, etc (say once a month). Just like with 35mm or even DCI (to a much lesser extend), sometimes the heating/cooling cycles and fan vibrations end up throwing something ever so slightly out of aligment.

A small correction and you are good to go for many more weeks/months.

This is virtually the same for single or stacked projection, like Imax etc.

More expensive projectors, designed for fixed installations where the ceiling is very unaccesible, i.e., present very little adjustment drifts to begin with and allow all parameters to be corrected from a remote control unit (i.e. a computer hooked to the serial port). Focus/zoom/lens centering/color etc can then be adjusted without touching the system. Some projectors even have video cameras and they auto adjust and auto align for multiple projectors (even more than two) working together in perfect "sync".

As I said, worry about the technical stuff later. The more money you have, the fewer problems and best performance you'll get. But if you can't make the budget, then there is no point and you will have to live with pulling a ladder in the middle of the auditorium once a month to re-adjust cheap, non-remote controllable, non-fixed installation designed projectors.

Some projectors, i.e., have loud fans and they can not really be easily used in the middle of a quiet theater w/o some afterthought. Etc.

Just factor as much money as you can for projection and then you can see what options you have. After about $60.000, you should be ok and trouble free for a small theater. Starting at about $10.000, you could survive. Below that, they'll be some compromises you'll have to make.
 
Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 05-01-2009, 11:28 PM:
 
Catalin, I'll be in Alex in a few weeks, get in touch with me.

Rick
 




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