This is topic Throw the breakers at night? (CP2000 ZX) in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 05-02-2009, 12:43 PM:
Our CP2000 ZXs will occasionally not show up on the network to the show stores causing the lamp automation cues to stop working. Power cycling the projector fixes the problem right away. Is there any reason not to just cut the power to the CP2000 at the breakers (after shutting it down properly) at closing?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-02-2009, 04:15 PM:
If you leave the servers on then leave the projectors on. If you remotely monitor them (hopefully) then they have to be left on. The ZX is a green machine and it'll go to sleep after a period of non-use... So as long as you have proper surge protection AND battery back up for the T.I. section there is no real reason to shut them off.
Mark
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-02-2009, 04:20 PM:
Couldn't you remotely monitor them AND shut them off? Like you have something networked that will turn the servers/projectors on a few minutes before the first show of the day and at night it turns both off?
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 05-02-2009, 04:49 PM:
Servers are turned off at each auditorium's breaker panel each night.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by remote monitoring. They've got a library server set up and the show manager software running so you can see the status of all theaters from any server, but that's it.
No UPS for anything, and the only surge protection for the projectors themselves is the surge protection on the building's main electrical panels (not even in the individual auditorium panels.)
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-02-2009, 05:07 PM:
Chris,
The M and ZX projectors will go to sleep eventually and in the "Sleep" mode the interface and T.I. stuff is still alive and can be monitored. CP-2000's cannot go to sleep and you just kill the three phase breaker to them. The Dolby gear has to be up all the tinme to remotely monitor the system. You could just go in through the Library Server and use the Show manager remote software to monitor and do all your show configs from home.
With a syatem that comprises a Library server you'd better have decent battery back up for that and each server and each T.I. head end. That means two UPS's per auditorium and one for the Library. All you need is a goofy power bump and you'd be off screen and performing an amazing series of re-boots.
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 05-02-2009, 06:22 PM:
We've already had that fun when a thunderstorm caused the power to drop multiple times one evening.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-02-2009, 06:53 PM:
quote: Jon P. Inghram
Servers are turned off at each auditorium's breaker panel each night.
Oh dear, please tell me you are doing a proper shutdown on the servers before you trip those breakers.
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 05-02-2009, 07:41 PM:
That's exactly how were were told to turn everything (except the actual projector) off each night, just flip the breakers. No shutdown procedure at all. I asked if they were sure that was the right way as it seemed horribly wrong to me, but they insisted it was.
Lemme guess... use ctrl-alt Fsomething to switch to the console, log in with a user and password we don't have (unless it defaults to the same as the ones used in the show manager) and use the regular linux shutdown command?
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-02-2009, 08:01 PM:
You haven't even told us what kind of servers you are running. But regardless, if you keep popping your breakers at the end of the night, you will experience raid failures and hard drive failures for sure. The servers were meant to be left on all the time, but if you HAVE to shut them down, shut them down properly via the operating system.
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 05-02-2009, 08:09 PM:
Sorry, the servers are all Dolby. I feel like an idiot having to ask here for this stuff, but unfortunately the people we should be asking (and indeed, have asked) apparently don't know or don't care.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-02-2009, 09:35 PM:
Pulling the plug on Dolby servers isn't a problem really. I don't recall any "software" shutdown available in the Dolby gear. Just log in/log out. I highly reccomend UPS's be installed or you'll be experiencing lots of un-needed problems of all sorts. Control_Alt_delete isn't going to get you anything although there are other control_alt_XXX functions used for set up that you don't want to mess around with.
Brad is correct that RAID's don't like to be powered down... you will also probably experience more red hard drive lights in doing so. Re-building the raid on the Dolby is about a 4 to 6 hour thing depending on your drive size. The DSS-100 only recognizes drives as a 370 gb drive size no matter what size drive you plug in.
Mark
Posted by Kevin Fairchild (Member # 4985) on 05-03-2009, 02:41 AM:
Why add a UPS if you are just going to switch the breakers off at night? We just have our dolby servers behind surge protectors for safety. Also I would hate to leave the servers on at night. It just seems like a waste to have them running all night.
Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 05-03-2009, 08:55 AM:
Which UPS is recommended?
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-03-2009, 09:21 AM:
quote: Kevin Fairchild
Why add a UPS if you are just going to switch the breakers off at night?
UPS's should be there for power transients and the quick brownouts and so on that typically happen. Surge protectors only aid in over voltage spikes... not undervoltage. With UPS's on the systems you'd almost never know there was any power problems at all and it's also much better for the gear. Some of power bumps that happen will cause you to be rebooting all the equipment in an entire multiplex!
quote: Matt Fields
Which UPS is recommended?
That all hinges on what the total load is. But I like to see a UPS capable of running the server rack for at least 10 to 15 min. if there is a complete power outage. This way you can perform an orderly shutdown of all the gear upstairs. Needless to say, ticketing systems should also be UPS'd
Typically you'd want to UPS power the DSP-100, DSS-100, auditorium switch,and CP-650. You could also power the NA-10 if you want to. All of these have lengthy boot up times. These would be off of one UPS. The Christie or Brand XXX projector front end electronics would be off another seperate UPS.
Mark
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-03-2009, 10:36 AM:
There are line conditioners, like Tripplites LCR-2400 that will keep the voltage within a 115-125V range.
As for UPS...I'm partial to those that use pure-sine wave outputs and also are 100% run-time...there are ZERO transitions with them...unplug the power...there is no transfer...you were always on the batteries.
You can find them from many sources though APC and Tripplite are the more popular brands.
Steve
Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 05-04-2009, 07:48 AM:
quote: Kevin Fairchild
Also I would hate to leave the servers on at night. It just seems like a waste to have them running all night.
It would be interesting to see some figures for the total power consumption of say, a 10-screen digital installation. Whilst individual draw might be small, there is a cumulative impact both in terms of powered-on time and installation size.
Energy costs might be lower again for now, but all the long-term projections are upwards.
There are also issues with energy wastage from heat dissipation, etc.
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Brad is correct that RAID's don't like to be powered down... you will also probably experience more red hard drive lights in doing so
But surely this limitation could be designed out in the interests of energy efficiency? When you think about it, typical cinema downtime can be 42% (say, midnight to 10am). Whilst that certainly doesn't translate into like-for-like energy savings, there would seem to be considerable room for improvement.
It ain't easy being green! ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 05-04-2009, 08:42 AM:
Power-cycling disks is generally a Bad Thing (tm), as they tend to fail when powered up. I've not dealt with the current generation of D-cinema servers, but, based upon my background (and full time job) in IT, I'd be reluctant to power down servers, except maybe in venues that don't operate every day. The power cost will be trivial when compared with the cost of replacement disks and/or lost shows. Also, as others have mentioned, remote monitoring is generally easier if the machines that are being monitored can be reliably expected to be powered up and on the network at all times. In any case, one would definitely want a UPS for the server.
It would be interesting to see what Dolby and other server manufacturers recommend.
I've also heard arguments that processors and amplifiers should stay powered up, since they, too, tend to fail at power-on. That said, most theaters that I know will shut their entire sound racks down at night, and have very few failures.
Out of curiousity, what happens in the event of a power failure in a ![[dlp]](graemlins/dlp.gif)
show? Can the movie be re-started from the point of interruption, or does it need to re-start from the beginning? Is there any concept of "fast forward" and "rewind" in these servers?
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-04-2009, 11:10 AM:
All of the ones I know will resume from where the power interruption occurred.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-04-2009, 12:51 PM:
I more or less agree with Scott's post. I never shut off my servers at home (Dell 2850's)and both are on UPSs that can run them for around a half hour non-stop. I haven't experienced a single drive failure in either of them and they've been on continously for over two years. One of these days I should power them down and do a good cleaning inside because they're probably pretty dusty by now.
As for Cinema servers... On Dolby's you can fast forword but not in plain sight on screen. You can pause the unit and then hit the fast forword button to jump ahead... then take it out of pause and resume play at the new point. There is also a means to type in a new time along the time line and have it jump to that point as well. I believe there is something in DCI that prohibits visible on screen fast-forwording/rewinding.yes, in a power outage all the servers I;ve delt with resume at the point where power was choked.
Mark
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 05-04-2009, 05:51 PM:
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I never shut off my servers at home (Dell 2850's)and both are on UPSs that can run them for around a half hour non-stop. I haven't experienced a single drive failure in either of them and they've been on continously for over two years.
You better do a backup before you shut them down. Seriously, Scott is right that most disk failures happen during spin up. Hard drives are quite a bit different than amplifiers with their moving parts. Turning them off at night WILL shorten their useful life. No money is actually being saved when you get to the bottom line.
Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-04-2009, 05:58 PM:
quote: Scott Norwood
I've also heard arguments that processors and amplifiers should stay powered up, since they, too, tend to fail at power-on.
Any thoughts on this? I have amps I leave on mainly because I'm tired of replacing the damn switches on the front. I've been doing that for a year and no issues whatsoever. I also have QSC and Aussie Monitor amps in other theatres that I do switch off. No problems with the QSC's as yet, but the Aussie's go down form time to time...more from an age problem though I think.
Amps off or leave on?
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 05-04-2009, 06:58 PM:
AFAIK we haven't had any of our QSC amps go bad and we switch them off with breakers, except for one auditorium which was turned off with the switches on the amps. We've had a few CP650s act up however, the cooling fan died in one and I think a power supply in another.
Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 05-04-2009, 07:34 PM:
Never had a problem with QSC amplifier switches, also used Crown products without any trouble.
quote: Scott Norwood
Power-cycling disks is generally a Bad Thing (tm), as they tend to fail when powered up.
That's not in doubt, but (remote monitoring aside) the question is why this issue can't be addressed by manufacturers. Admittedly these concerns could be directed at the entire IT area, but it's really very much like "leaving the lights on all night at the office". It's hugely energy inefficient when you start to look at it ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-04-2009, 08:34 PM:
I've never found any benefit to leaving the amps or other sound equipment on. I've got theatres that leave em on, other that turn them off...one could not find any convincing evidence that leaving them on does any long-term good.
I do not recommend using the switches on the amps...rather either get a sequencer or just use the breakers...Breakers are cheap and even the non-switch rated ones are rated for an amazing amount of cycles. Remember you are not switching the breakers at full load. If you use good breakers (Square-D QO style or Cutler-Hammer) you'll likely get 15-20 years on them...if you use junk (GE, Siemens, ITE...etc...basically not Square-D or Cutler-Hammer)...then you'll be lucky if they work when new. Now in larger switching gear, GE can be fine...but forget it on the 120/208 load centers. The advantage of switching the breakers is that you can source the breakers at most any home center or electrical supply...the fancy switches on the amps or other gear are bound to be more expensive and less likely to be immediately obtainable.
Steve
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-04-2009, 08:35 PM:
quote: Brad Miller
You better do a backup before you shut them down.
To be honest I've never backed them up but I agree that I should! One 2850 is running Windows Home Server as a stand alone and it has it's own drive extender that does it's own backups spread amongst the other drives... 6 drives total, about 1.5 tb. The drive extender works pretty well and I've actually tested it by pulling a hot drive out while the server is up and running. Like the Dolby Server you get an on screen warning on the console. Re-installing that pulled drive went just fine and no data was lost. This server is mainly there just to store and share photos although I do keep D-Cinema software on it so I can remotely access it from anywhere. The other box is running Win 2003 with the split backplane and is the front end so to say of my home network. Wife uses it to store cad drawings and other misc stuff.
Mark
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-04-2009, 10:23 PM:
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Wife uses it to store cad drawings and other misc stuff.
Well, Mark...she may think you're a "cad," but at least she's still drawing pictures of you so you might have a chance! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-04-2009, 10:33 PM:
Yea, and the pictures are now in 3-D CAD... I have lots of dimension going here ![[thumbsup]](graemlins/thumbsup.gif)
mark
Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 05-05-2009, 06:58 AM:
I agree that the electrical loads should be shut down at night with the breakers.
However: the disc drives should run continuously. Back in the day when radio stations had cart machines with a large flywheel and bronze bushings, it was found that running the motor continuously gave better bearing life. Apparently getting hot and staying there was better than temperature cycling. Perhaps disc drives are similar. Louis
Posted by Jack Ondracek (Member # 1466) on 05-05-2009, 09:58 AM:
quote: Louis Bornwasser
it was found that running the motor continuously gave better bearing life. Apparently getting hot and staying there was better than temperature cycling. Perhaps disc drives are similar. Louis
That was actually because the motors took some time to come up to speed. Jocks would slam in a cart & hit the start button, only to hear a huge wow in the sound. So... they fixed that by jumpering the motor switches.
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-05-2009, 01:56 PM:
quote: Steve Guttag
I've never found any benefit to leaving the amps or other sound equipment on. I've got theatres that leave em on, other that turn them off...one could not find any convincing evidence that leaving them on does any long-term good.
When I worked at Knott's Berry Farm here in So Cal, ALL sound equipment was left on 24/7. Failures of any amps were extremely rare and they have literally hundreds of amplifiers in the park. One facility DID turn their amps off at the end of each day and they went through a lot of amplifiers. Most amps there were Crown, there were some Yamaha (they sucked ass..I blew one up on purpose with 240 volts into the speaker jacks after it gave me a huge jolt when hot-plugging a speaker cable, which was a 1/4" line to stage monitors) and finally they started to use QSC. Never had any problems with QSC, even after two of them (Series One model 1400) got rained on one night, while powered up!! (The other amp on that roof was a Yamaha and it died completely. Never could get it to work even after extended drying time in my mom's oven. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
)
At UC Irvine we have MXa and USA series QSC's that stay on 24/7. Only one amp ever failed (one of the USA's on the surrounds, that was about 4 years after it was installed, and QSC STILL fixed it for free) and this is after 12 years of use. I do clean the dust out of them every other year.
IMHO, I would agree that leaving them on is a lot less stressful that turning them off every day.
Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 05-05-2009, 10:17 PM:
All of the power amps (AR - Paramount Sound) at the Caesars Palace Omnimax stayed on for the entire 20+ years that the place existed. We did power down the dubbers and the non-sync playback each night however.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-06-2009, 01:40 PM:
We used to throw the breakers every night but after 20 years of trying to keep the staff trained on which breakers NOT to throw (such as the one controlling the marquee timer, etc.) I finally had an electrician put in a nice row of wall switches that turns all the essential stuff on. That has eased almost as many headaches as the Film Tech Platter Safety Ring.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-06-2009, 03:40 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
We used to throw the breakers every night
And EXACTLY how far could you throw them????
Mark
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-08-2009, 01:17 AM:
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
And EXACTLY how far could you throw them????
Mark
I've managed to throw a Zinsco breaker around 50 feet.
And a Square D about 60 feet.
Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 05-08-2009, 07:22 AM:
QO or that Homeline crap?
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-08-2009, 02:04 PM:
quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
And EXACTLY how far could you throw them????
In my booth? About 10 feet, max!
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 05-08-2009, 09:50 PM:
'sides, aint breakers designed NOT to be used as switches, but more as what they are called..."breakers": to 'break a circuit open' when really needed?
If that's then the case, tonnage of circuits would have relay circuits inbetween the panel and the target devices.
Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 05-11-2009, 03:27 PM:
quote: Robert Minichino
QO or that Homeline crap? [Smile]
Both. I have Homelines installed at my apt here, they're not that bad, but def not up to the standards of the QO Series. But still better than the GE crap.
quote: Monte L Fullmer
'sides, aint breakers designed NOT to be used as switches, but more as what they are called..."breakers": to 'break a circuit open' when really needed?
If that's then the case, tonnage of circuits would have relay circuits inbetween the panel and the target devices.
Monte, not sure if that first line was a quote from someone else or your thoughts.
Most breakers can easily handle the on once, off once of a daily shutdown without too much stress.. IIRC the minimum number of manual cycles a breaker must handle to be UL listed is 10,000, which with twice daily operation is 13.7 years.
Also many brands have breakers marked "SWD" (Switch duty) which have heavier contacts to handle switching inductive lighting loads.
I still maintain, based solely on my experiences so far, it is far better to keep the equipment on 24/7.
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 05-13-2009, 10:40 PM:
quote: Mike Blakesley
I finally had an electrician put in a nice row of wall switches that turns all the essential stuff on. That has eased almost as many headaches as the Film Tech Platter Safety Ring.
Where I used to work, by the front door they put in a switch (which was key controlled; the building's master key fit it) would control lights for the whole building minus the booth. Although before safety lights got placed in the stairwell (and someone had prematurely turned everything off), I hated exiting there (esp while carrying cans) cause you couldn't see a damn thing. Got very used to counting the steps.
Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 05-14-2009, 03:25 PM:
quote: Tony Bandiera Jr
Most breakers can easily handle the on once, off once of a daily shutdown without too much stress.
I can vouch for that. Until we got our wall switches, the same six breakers had been in daily on-off service for at least 25 years or longer, in fact they are still in service...they just have an easier life now!
Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 05-15-2009, 11:49 AM:
Turns out the solution to the original problem seems to be to power up the projectors to "powered on" mode ("on" light solid green,) not just stand-by mode, before turning the Dolby servers on.
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