Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: REAL D DOLBY 3D

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Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 09-12-2009, 01:26 AM:

Hi Guys,
I have to make a decision betweeen Dolby 3D and Real D this week.
Could someone tell me what is actually in the Real D license agreement

Cheers,

David.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-12-2009, 02:38 AM:

Go Dolby.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-12-2009, 06:43 AM:

A decision made without reading the contract in advance is not a decision; it is a crap shoot. Louis

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 09-12-2009, 11:52 AM:

You won't like the obligations to Real D, but it's costs less at first. Kind of like a car rental.

It's always better to buy and have the freedom.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-12-2009, 12:49 PM:

Dolby would be my first choice because you own it outright and there are no strings attached. 3-D is excellent as is the color even though its a filtered system. The only downsides to Dolby are it's inefficiency and the high cost of the filter disk if it ever needs replacement due to a lamp explosion... it's well in excess of 15K. Make sure you have room to accomodate the dish washer and that you have sufficient hot water available. If you have very hard tap water or water with alot of iron in it additional filters/treatment will have to be installed. The best thing though is the per cycle use of a pair of Dolby glasses costs but about 5 cents. 3-D effect is the same everywhere in the room and this is not the case with a system that relies on a Silver screen. You may loose 3-D completely in the front few rows and at the sides with silver screens.

There are too many downsides to the Real-D contract in my book for it to be a viable system in anything but a large chain. You won't be able to bring anyone elses 3-D system into your booth for 10 years unless by some miracle you can negotiate this into your contract(good luck!). The one good thing of recent is that Real-D and Master Image have standardized on the same polarization angles so their glasses are now interchangable.

You also need to take a very close look at the Master Image unit. M.I. is also available from DTS. This unit is easily moved between screens where Real-D and Dolby are fixed in a given theater. You need Real-D's permission to move theor unit anywhere else fomr it's initial installation location. You need a silver screen for Real-D and Master Image So you might ask yourself what type of audience do you have... Do they throw stuff at the screen regularly? Kids do this all the time!! The supposedly washable Hurley silver screen looks like crap...very splotchy and isn't an even an option. Big Sky is soon to release a new washable silver screen as well and they claim to have excellent consistancy and it has been approved by Real-D... although we'll see how that consistancy holds in the real world production.

There is alot to weigh when buying 3-D and you'll have to live with the downsides of each system for a long time so study them carefully and see which best fits your situation.

Lastly, you should consider equipment insurance if your a small exhibitor. Although the equipment is super reliable any repairs to any digital cinema gear is going to be EXTREMELY EXPENSIVE once your warranty departs. If you run the lamp past warranty and have an explosion and it also takes the Dolby Filter Wheel figure at least 20+K to get going again. Reflectors can cost about 7k by themselves!! Sure, there are extended manufacturers warranties avauilable at extra cost(considerable cost actually)... equipment insurance may however turn out to be less expensive than the manufacturers extended warranty.

Lastly, Wait to buy at the end of the year or early next year when the Generation 2 Based Projectors come available. Then you have a 2K/4K convertable projector that also accepts Media Block systems. If you buy now you'll be sitting on an obsolete expensive piece of gear wishing you would have waited.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-12-2009, 01:33 PM:

Dolby is the way to go. Silver screens suck, the disposable glasses are nowhere near as environmentally friendly (even if you DO recycle them), the end result image is better, and the system is significantly cheaper to operate.

Yes the initial costs are more, but you aren't getting screwed into a contract. You own the equipment, it is a one time purchase...end of story.

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 09-12-2009, 03:24 PM:

quote:
You won't be able to bring anyone elses 3-D system into your booth for 10 years unless by some miracle you can negotiate this into your contract(good luck!).

I have copies of my directly negotiated contract as well as the CBG one. The 10 year "deal" IS ONLY IF YOU TAKE THE CBG OPTION to get their group negotiated price, the standard "off the shelf" option is 5 years with various pricing options. Yes it is true that you are restricted to only do RealD in buildings you have taken the deal for - but face it, if Dolby decided to license their product like RealD they would put the same restrictions in the contract.

Something a lot of exhibitors are forgetting is what to do if they want multiple screens - i.e. the economic payback changes drastically if you want more than 1 3D screen (for almost 3 months this summer we had 3 full screens running 3D content).

We have RealD mainly because they were first to market and could deliver the 3D product before the rest started selling their systems.

My only fear is what will happen if/when the studios raise the 4.5fl 3D level - Dolby and Master Image need to figure out how to light the larger screens.

Don't take my comments as recommending the RealD system - use what you think is the best fit for your situation, both technically and economically (and whether or not you think 3D will be a passing fad).

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 09-12-2009, 05:04 PM:

If 3D is just going to die out again as some have predicted (and rightly so based on the past) why would you want to buy and own the gear out right and be stuck with useless gear?

This was one of the main questions that our owners struggled with when trying to decide between Dolby and RealD. They ultimately went with RealD and we have the 5yr lease term. We also rolled up our original screens not just as spares, but in case we revert back after the 5yr term.

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 09-12-2009, 07:06 PM:

I'm also a proponent of dual-projection 3D solutions. For all the above.

Considering how expensive a system like Dolby's (plus say 800 pair of glasses plus washing machine plus antitheft system/cleaning labor), a dual projection setup is not WAYYYYY more expensive.

I mean, instead of one very powerfull and bright projector with a very high wattage lamp plus a 3D add-on, one could get two cheaper projector and smaller lamps. The add-on (polarizing filters) can be dirt cheap, and you can boast having a setup just about identical to brand-new Imax!!! [Wink]

If you don't like silver screens, you can fit dual projectors with passive Infitec filters (far cheaper than a Dolby wheel). Barco will even fit them for you, i.e.

And once the 3D fad dies, you can move the extra projector to a smaller screen, or use it as a spare, or sell it or something. I mean, a DCI projector is a DCI projector. A pulled RealD/Dolby system is ... well, who knows what it will be 5 years from now.

Again, not saying that a dual projection system is cheaper than a 3D add-on, just saying it deserves some consideration. Also, don't forget Master Image. If they could lower their prices a bit, they would be a winner for many installations.

I agree that Dolby is a great system capable of top results with the shortcomings already mentioned: a bit high in price, glasses are very expensive (in case of loss), needs TONS of light to reach anywhere near acceptable levels which often means a high-gain screen anyway (or a $$$$ lamp or both).

Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 09-12-2009, 11:53 PM:

Thank you to everyone who replied with very useful info.

The problem in the land of Oz is that Dolby3D is generally $40-50k AUD dearer to setup than Real D, the cost of glasses is $50AUD+, theft and breakage is high.

I have a couple of more questions for the panel...

Is ther any restriction on running 2D digital if you install Real D in a single screen, someone mentioned to me that Real D only allow 35/70mm in 2D if Real D installs their system ?

I have projection port problems..do you need a 24inch x 24 inch port for Real D..Someone told me if you use Z screen not XL you
can use a smaller port ? I have a 65 foot throw on a 33 foot scope image...does anyone know the formula for what size the image would be at the port?

The series 2 Christie 2000ZX projector..is there much difference over series 1.

Cheers again,

David Stone.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-13-2009, 03:55 AM:

You are better off going Master Image instead of Real D. When I saw it at Cine Expo in Amsterdam and previewing UP it seemed that it had a bit more depth that then other 3D systems. Of course it might be the footage but if you are willing to put a silver screen anyway get a quote from MI instead of RealD.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-13-2009, 08:46 AM:

Well, series 1 won't do full frame triple flash which is a very important thing for 3-D. The full frame ability greatly improves resolution and brightness. May also allow you to use a smaller lamp as well. Generation 2 projectors are a whole other game... call them Series three if you like.

Master Image shuold then be thouorghly investigated by yourself. Not only do you own it outright with no strings attatched but it's also easily movable between screens. Image quality is very high. The only downside is that you will have to clean the filter wheel about every 10 days to 2 weeks.

Mark

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-13-2009, 02:07 PM:

Master Image seems simple and its clearly the best option instead of the Real D if he is willing o change to silver screen that is. Movability is a winning feature only if you install silver screen in the other screens of your complex.
Demetris

Posted by Peter Castle (Member # 1997) on 09-13-2009, 07:19 PM:

Mark Gulbrandsen said

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Well, series 1 won't do full frame triple flash which is a very important thing for 3-D. The full frame ability greatly improves resolution and brightness.

The user manual for the CP2000-ZX indicates that it will do triple flash 3D at full frame as it has an FFIB - triple flash hardware called Brilliant3D. So what's the truth?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-13-2009, 07:25 PM:

Peter,

When I think of them I consider the ZX Series 1 to have an EFIB and Series 2 to have and FFIB. Other then that there is little difference. The ability to triple flash was always available in the DMD's but the supporting semiconductors couldn't run at that speed reliably. which is why FFIB came to be. The upcomming Generation 2 projectors are a whole other ball game because they are 2K/4K convertible. There will also be an upcomming version of the ZX that will accept a 6kw lamp.

Mark

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 01-05-2010, 05:50 PM:

I have seen Avatar in both Dolby 3D & RealD now. Can honestly say that RealD really lacked in punch and brightness in this venue. I think the brightness on the RealD would have been lucky to get to 1 fl.

Things like dust particles from explosions had no 3D effect on the RealD system and was completely lost. Color was amazing in Dolby 3D. Looked monotone on RealD.

Dolby is clearly the better system for 3D but...cinemas being cinemas, quality is a minor point, right?? God forbid if we had to put in some effort and re-use glasses. Let's just produce more plastic to put in the landfills because we don't want to pay some kid $11 an hour to collect some glasses.

Why is it that cinema management always cut back staff as a way to improve the balance sheet but when it comes to paying RealD a license fee for well..., nothing, they have an open cheque book?? Very odd.

Oh yeah get this. Purchased my 4 tickets online via the cinemas website. Get to the cinema and the kid at the podium tells us that we have to go back downstairs and purchase Real D glasses for $1 each!!!! So let me get this straight. They will sell me tickets to a 3D film without glasses! I said to the kid, what if I don't have $4?? He said, "you can still watch it but it may be a bit blurry. We do cinema checks without glasses all the time".

Just to cap off my Real D experience. Before the credits said "written and directed by James Cameron" some little snotty nosed usher thought he would turn on the cleaners lights in the auditorium and yell out that we had to leave via the front exit only.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 01-05-2010, 06:15 PM:

David.

It's a minefield out there with the potential to lose BIG $$$. Can you wait until the Tech 3D system is rolled?

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 07-26-2010, 10:37 AM:

Could someone elaborate on the RealD licensing model? Is it per screen, per screening, per ticket sold, ...?

Posted by Frederick Lanoy (Member # 5416) on 07-26-2010, 12:28 PM:

I think (but if someone could confirm) that the licensing model of Real D is based on every ticket sold : 0,90 cent for licensing and 0,90 cent for each glasses.

My two cents : if you have a lot of customers, MasterImage is a good alternativ solution to Real D.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 07-26-2010, 01:31 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Well, series 1 won't do full frame triple flash which is a very important thing for 3-D.

All of the Christie SB and ZX machines I installed over the last couple of years were full frame triple flash. Mark is thinking about the earlier units and should have said "not all series 1 will do..."

Dolby is still the way to go guys. It is the cheapest and the best quality, unless you were a failure at math in school and can't see past today's check that is. [Razz]

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 07-27-2010, 10:53 AM:

What are the key differences (besides 5 yr vs 10 yr) between the CBG deal and a direct deal with Real3d?

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 07-27-2010, 12:04 PM:

The difference is that with CBG you take it or leave it as written, direct to RealD you can negotiate certain contract points.

I am involved with a location that took the CBG deal as well as ones I negotiated myself - unfortunately I can't speak to specific differences (confidentiality reasons) but I encourage you to do a long term comparison of both contract models as well as explore Master Image and Dolby.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-27-2010, 12:21 PM:

From the customer's point of view Real D and Dolby 3D both work really well if properly set up. With Real D it is particularly critical to get the system properly aligned otherwise the 3D effect isn't going to work as it should. Dolby 3D seems to work pretty well as long as it is used on a modest, not gigantic sized screen. Real D shouldn't be used on huge screens either. Digital 3D is already a watching movies with sunglasses experience; giant screen use turns the experience into Movies by Braille. IMHO, film-based IMAX-3D is the only 3D format worth a hoot for huge screens. The only odd thing I've noticed with Dolby 3D is if you turn your head to glance at something (such as a neon Warren Theaters clock on the wall) you catch a strange rainbow effect in the 3D image. No one is going to watch a whole movie out of the corners of their eyes though.

I don't know how well Real D or Dolby 3D perform at the sides of the room or first few rows because I refuse to sit in those parts of the theater. Surround sound just doesn't work worth a damn in those viewing zones.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-27-2010, 03:27 PM:

FWIW dept.: We have Dolby 3D here and I think it looks fine.

We've had A LOT of people who have been to the Carmike in Billings, where they have RealD, and have told me that our picture looks way better than theirs. Aside from the system differences, it could be partly because our screen is smaller (their biggest auditoriums have about 50 foot screens, where ours is 30 feet).

Also, people are saying the Dolby glasses are way cooler. And you know how important "cool" is to young people!

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 07-27-2010, 08:08 PM:

The confidentially agreements that CBG and Real3d insist upon using is a big red flag to me. If this was such a great deal for exhibitors; CBG would want their members talking about it in public.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-27-2010, 08:16 PM:

You are exactly correct!! Louis

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-27-2010, 08:28 PM:

We pulled our single Real-D when we upgraded to three screens and they sent us the contract to look at. Several trees died during the making of this document.

We are now running Master Image. We own them. No more fees. True, you do have to clean the polarizer about every two weeks, but is that such a chore really? You clean your ports and lenses normally, right?

I always had issues with the Real D image when they tried to move things close to you. It always seemed to break up and become unclear. No problems like that with M.I. Looks fine. It does suck up a bit more light than Real D, but we had plenty to spare.

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 07-27-2010, 09:00 PM:

quote: Mike Frese
If this was such a great deal for exhibitors; CBG would want their members talking about it in public.

They don't want them to talk about it in public because both CBG and RealD don't want non-CBG members to know the details of their deal - one main motivation is that CBG wants more members to sign up and pay dues before they find out what deals you get rather than know what they are beforehand and decide if you want them before you pay. RealD does not want you to know the deal because then you may use it as leverage in negotiations, although the CBG version is different enough for this not to be effective.

Pretty much ANY contract offered today will have a confidentiality clause included - it also works both ways where the clause protects the signer from the other party disclosing information it finds out about your business.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-27-2010, 10:47 PM:

Dolby 3D and XpanD both can work well anywhere in the theatre. The silver screen solutions can not really say that.

In terms of 3D quality, Real-D is definitely the worst, technically. It definitely has ghosting issues that the others, including Master Image does NOT have. Also, one should watch out for Real-D XL. It brings much more light to the equation but the further off center line your projector is (Vertically or horizontally) the worse your alignment is going to be and forget it on a curved screen. You'll never get the corners and the bottom center converged properly at the same time. That said, I think their alignment system for the XL is way cool, including the nifty gauge...it works.

Mind you, my comments pertain to the single lens DLP solutions on Real-D...dual lens or dual projector systems likely do not have the same issues.