Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Live TV Feeds

This is topic Live TV Feeds in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000441

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-22-2009, 01:22 PM:

Any of you out there do live feeds of sporting events or the Academy Awards Skipping the horror of getting the rights, what equipment is needed to get into the theatre and through the projector?

Will just a basic cable box or satellite box due? Is one better than the other?
Will the Dolby 650 processor handle the tv stereo, or is there another processor (or card) needed?
Anything else I need to consider?

Not in anyway trying to violate copyright here, just looking into possible income streams.

Posted by Claude S. Ayakawa (Member # 1401) on 09-22-2009, 01:37 PM:

Martin, I am sorry I cannot answer the technical parts of your question but two Consolidated theatres here in Hawaii offer live coverage of all University of Hawaii football games. The last two games from the mainland were not broadcast in high definition but even if they were, I doubt the two theatres could have shown them in HD because they are not equipped for digital cinema and probably using standard projectors suitable for large auditorium use.

-Claude

Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 09-22-2009, 01:47 PM:

We have a cable box and a Dish DVR for Fathom/NCN events. They run into a Barco ACS 2408 and into a DP100. The CP650 has a digital card but that's used for the server, so we have a Dolby DMA8+ to get audio into the CP650.I don't know if you could get Toslink into the 650 otherwise, but maybe you could use the external 6 channel into from the analogue feed. Works well. You might have to adjust your lens settings as HD is not 1.85.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-22-2009, 02:16 PM:

You need a Scaler to handle the image since most D-Cine projectors accept DVI inputs (or an HDMI to DVI adaptor). Sound can be routed either via the RCA input of the processor or if you have a digital out you could try a breakout box of digital to analogue and input it to the 6 channel analogue input of your processor. Don't expect to fill the whole screen though.
Demetris

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-22-2009, 02:24 PM:

Ok, good to know. Let me add some more details.

We are not DCinema. We have a Sanyo PLC XF40 LCD, which will do 1080i. We currently feed the DVD picture through a Extron 75c switcher (component in/ RBGHV out) to the projector. Sound is direct into the CP650. Projector can do DVI but not HDMI. Switcher is all analog. We use a zoom lens, so adjustment there is not a problem.

And the projector is 60ft from the booth.

Is it possible, and without significant quality loss, to get an HD tuner with a component output and a separate audio output to feed picture into the switcher and audio dircetly to CP650 and keep doing things as we do with DVD?

Or, do I get HD tuner with HDMI out, a HDMI to DVI converter and 60ft of cable for the picture and a split off of the HDMI to feed the CP650?

Clearly, I don't know much about home video. I don't even own a DVD player;>

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-22-2009, 02:36 PM:

I know Golden Interstar from Europe have a box which outputs 1080i via component. What you do suggest is possible as long as you find a box which outputs via component 1080i. It's not easy using boxes and boxes. A scaler though might do your job easier as it will give you the possibilty of adding any source to your existing projector as a scaler usually also acts as a switcher.
Demetris

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 09-26-2009, 06:01 AM:

we made up a basic tv on big screen with just a panasonic dlp 5000 and and old VHS video player as tuner. made up a audio cable for dts input and away we went did not look too bad . even better if digital tv hook up a set top box instead of the video tuner.

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 09-26-2009, 08:49 AM:

I'd avoid HDMI and go component to DVI. When you use HDMI then you have to deal with HDCP, high-definition copy protection. It tends to mess with various pieces of equipment differently. Our satellite boxes won't talk with our projector, our cable box won't talk with our scaler (through HDMI), etc. It is supposed to only limit you to 1080i at the highest, if HDCP is not present in the connected device, but it doesn't always work that way.

1080p is supposed to be available only through HDMI so they can force HDCP on everyone.

DVI can handle 1080p data rates, but scalers that will do it drop off the market quickly, due to pressure from the other manufacturers and Hollywood. The same with scalers that will strip HDCP off of HDMI.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-26-2009, 02:47 PM:

What exactly is the HDCP signal that stops the communication between devices? Where does it reside relative to the rest of video information. And is it something that can be separately injected into a signal at some point to make an non-HDCP video signal look like a HDCP signal to the piece of equipment down stream that needs to see HDCP? In other words, is it possible to easily force equipment to play a signal that you legitmately have the rights to display but can't get from point A to point B because of a dumb HDPC issue that is bogus?

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-26-2009, 05:52 PM:

Consider more or less the security issue of encrypted content via the HDSDI ports of D-Cinema servers. HDMI is more or less the same with one cable. The cable transfer video, digital audio, control and also the HDCP interoggation/coding. The actual playback device queries the projector or tv screen and the tv or projector should respond that it's hdcp compliant to allow the signal to be routed. The playback device then authorises the projector or tv to play what is being send. The first limitation is that to send 1080p signal a cable of no more than 12 meters must be used. Extenders e.t.c are available. Cat 5/6 HDMI balluns are also available. The only way to avoid is by downscaling the signal to component via an active ballun.
Demetris

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 09-27-2009, 01:49 AM:

Oops, actually got the name a little off. Here is the Wikipedia entry for it.

***
High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection (HDCP) is a form of digital copy protection developed by Intel Corporation [1] to prevent copying of digital audio and video content as it travels across DisplayPort, Digital Visual Interface (DVI), High-Definition Multimedia Interface (HDMI), Gigabit Video Interface (GVIF), or Unified Display Interface (UDI) connections. HDCP does not address whether copying would be permitted by fair use laws. The specification is proprietary, and implementing HDCP requires a license.[2]

For DVI interfaces, HDCP is optional.[3][4]

HDCP is licensed by Digital Content Protection, LLC[5], a subsidiary of Intel. In addition to an annual fee, licensed adopters agree to the conditions set forth in the HDCP License Agreement.[6] For example, high-definition digital video sources must not transmit protected content to non-HDCP-compliant receivers. Additionally, DVD-Audio content is restricted to CD-audio quality or less[6] on non-HDCP-digital audio outputs (analog audio outputs have no quality limits). Licensed adopters cannot allow their devices to make copies of content, and must design their products in ways that "effectively frustrate attempts to defeat the content protection requirements."[6] The technology sometimes causes handshaking problems, especially with older high-definition displays.
***

I first ran into the limitations of HDCP when trying to connect our cable and satellite equipment to a Barco DP-100. The DP-100 has DVI-D ports which are not HDCP compliant. We could not get picture at all on the cable box, even though it was supposed to only drop it to 1080i. And on the satellite box it would only do 720i. We had to get a scaler/switcher, and input both that way. I would have liked the unit built for the DP-100, but it is $4500, and the scaler/switcher our satellite guy found was $350.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 09-27-2009, 11:51 AM:

HDCP is intended to prevent exactly what you are trying to accomplish. It is embedded in both the source (Cable Box) and sink (your projector, which is very nice).

I doubt your projector is HDCP compliant. Therefore using HDMI-DVI will not work. You will see a blue screen.

Adding a scaler will not help you. Your projector has some nice scaling capabilities built in, and for simplicity's sake you should use them.

Your best option at this point is to connect the satellite receiver to the projector using component video cables. This should get you 720p.

In late 2010ish your satellite receiver's analog outputs (composite, component, and s-video) will all be either completely disabled or limited to 480i by the cable company.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 09-27-2009, 01:35 PM:

> I'd avoid HDMI and go component to DVI. When you use HDMI then you have to deal with HDCP, high-definition copy protection.

While HDCP is optional for DVI, all recent sources, including Satellite Receivers, Blu-Ray, Upconverting DVD use it. If your projector does not support HDCP, DVI will work no better than HDMI.

There are devices available on the internet that will take HDMI sources, up to 1080p, and output them to Component Video in the same resolution that was inputted. If your projector does not accept component inputs, there are devices available on the internet that will take component and output HDMI.

HDMI and DVI, as far as picture goes, are the same bit stream. There are converter cables available everywhere between them.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-28-2009, 06:20 AM:

this is a handy little device for that very reason
http://www.hdfury.com/

Posted by Pietro Clarici (Member # 4937) on 09-28-2009, 08:12 AM:

This could help too. HDMI in, non-HDCP DVI out; secondary mirrored output for a preview display. If the device you're connecting outputs native 1080p you don't even need a scaler.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-28-2009, 02:20 PM:

I've used the HD-Fury with the Sky HD boxes to convert to 1080i (this is what the Sky HD box outputs) component signal and works fine. I even use the USB connector of the Sky HD box to power the HD fury (5V)
Demetris

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 09-28-2009, 04:37 PM:

Tom, we don't have that problem anymore, the scaler does allow us 1080p through the DVI-D.

"the scaler/switcher our satellite guy found was $350"

I did not post a link to this particular scaler however, because it has been discontinued by Gefen. As I am afraid any reputable equipment manufacturer will be coerced to do anytime they sell anything non-HDCP compliant. I'm sure HDFury is under pressure, but seeing as that is all they sell, they would not pull it from the market. It certainly looks like a better option.

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 10-03-2009, 07:52 AM:

Sucks to have to do that workaround. To be clear in my head, you are not defeating the HDCP you are simply working around it. The cable box is saying, "whoa, no compliance, output sucky 720i" and you have a scaler in place that interpolates it back to 1080p. At least its better than NTSC!

Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 10-03-2009, 08:37 AM:

Going directly to the projector gives us 720, going to the scaler, it will do 1080, and the scaler to the projector will do 1080 (the scaler, at least this model, will ignore HDCP compliance).

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 12-21-2009, 07:39 AM:

Just run our first satellite live show on the weekend. we setup a dish and decoder and linked it to the NEC1600 , it was only a SD broadcast for kids but it come up really good onscreen , sound was impressive , had my doubts about this setup and reliability of of all but it went well with no hiccups. and we had near on full house which made it worthwhile.

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 01-15-2010, 03:30 PM:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.32714

From what I understand this cable does job that the HDfury does.

Allot cheaper too [Smile]