Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: D-cinema security is becoming even more stupid than film security

This is topic D-cinema security is becoming even more stupid than film security in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-23-2009, 09:31 PM:

I'm going to have to get on a soap box here for a minute because this is just beyond retarded.

A theater runs an advance "security" screening of a movie digitally.

Said theater receives the content via a hard drive 5 days before the show. Is this a security threat? Absolutely not, because the KDMs (keys to unlock the content so it will play) haven't been received, nor are they valid except for the very short window of the screening anyway.

When the screening is over, the security goon DEMANDS to "watch the content be deleted".

So yeah, ok fine...whatever. Here you go buddy, watch and behold POOF! Yay its gone, who cares? (I sure don't, because I have a brain and understand how the KDMs work.)

Now lets analyze how retarded that is. The theater had the hard drive in their possession for 5 days. Lets just PRETEND FOR A MINUTE that someone actually wanted to copy the content, knowing damn well that there was no way to actually VIEW the content...the theater had FIVE DAYS TO DO IT, INCLUDING THE TIME THE MOVIE WAS ON SCREEN!!!

But again we are left with a dose of reality, even if someone had 50 copies of a security screening hard drive...big whoopdie fucking do! It is USELESS!!!

...or are they telling us the super-encryption actually a big load of bs and cracked without TOO much difficulty???

Ok I'm done. I just had to vent because I really take offense to being treated like a criminal.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 09-23-2009, 09:40 PM:

The whole "treated like a criminal" is only for the people legitimately using the content, of course. If you pirate it (arr!), you don't have to worry about any of those stupid restrictions. Same with home video, where the pirates don't have to suffer through the forced ads at the beginning of the disc, and sometimes the quality is even okay.

Heck of a way to treat your customers/partners.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 09-23-2009, 10:48 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
Ok I'm done. I just had to vent because I really take offense to being treated like a criminal.

Sorta like the woman who didn't want to be subjected to a security check at the Tyler Perry movie? [evil]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-23-2009, 11:01 PM:

Yea, but she was just dumb! [Razz]

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 09-23-2009, 11:07 PM:

And here I was thinking getting a digital screen was going to make things easier in every way.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-23-2009, 11:25 PM:

Another nice thing is the "big brother is watching" aspect of d-cinema. Since these systems are usually Internet connected the service providers and movie studios can keep track of when these projectors were used and what movies were played on them (unless it was just some DVD or something else like that).

I was recently told about a house cleaning of sorts that happened at a theater in Tennessee. I'm not going to get deep into specifics, such as naming the exact theater, etc. The theater was running a quality control screening to check the print, but apparently let a bunch of people who weren't employees in to see the show. Someone at a movie studio branch office in Tennessee found out about it. The activity log from that projector confirmed what was going on. Some firings took place after that. Fallout from that incident spread circuit wide. Employees in this chain can check their movie trailers, commercials, etc. but are advised not to check the entire movie. Just play the first 10 or 20 minutes (if even that) to make sure the show plays. Then stop the show.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 09-24-2009, 08:27 AM:

Brad I could not agree more, although I guess deep down we had to expect this.

my digital KDM arrives via email about 10 days before I receive the media on hard drive. The drives have been arriving one day before screening,"UP" being the exception where the drive arrived just 3 hours before my first screening.We also took a 35mm print as well which arrived 2 days before first screening!

This makes it tight if there is an issue. Taking into
considering the teething problems i had with the qube i would have enjoyed more time to ingest and test the media rather than taking pot luck on the opening day.

It is getting carried away and we are not stopping piracy issues. While we are subjected to all this security bootleg dvds are flooding in from Bali before we even receive anything.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-24-2009, 08:28 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Since these systems are usually Internet connected the service providers and movie studios can keep track of when these projectors were used and what movies were played on them (unless it was just some DVD or something else like that).

I've been in the NOC center and seen how it works and thats incorrect. They can't see what film is running or has run. They can only see what input is selected and other status type indications. They can see if a film IS running(so they don't do a re-boot during a run!) but not which film it is.

Mark

Posted by James B Gardiner (Member # 5151) on 09-24-2009, 08:31 AM:

Ok,
This topic is becoming an "ISSUE" all round.

The control of digital content is taking a long time for the distributors to get their heads around it. Especially outside the US where its all new for the distributor regional offices.

As a test site in which we develop tools for Digital cinemas, we have gotten our hand slapped for simply keeping a copy of a DCP on a Library system!!

DCP's are easy to copy and move around, however, the distributors still think of them as PRINTS. The fact you can copy them, scares them. It will take them some time before they actually understand how this all works.

What we need to do is to try and operate as close to how they want as possible for the near term. As they learn, they will realise that it is not the distribution of the DCP that is of any major concern, but the KDM's themselves.

In the long run, once they understand the level of security a DCP really has, and how usless they are without a KDM, they will probably relax a little.

But until then best to work with them.

For example, if (or when) you receive a broken DCP drive, do not run to your friend and get a copy of them. Be sure to report any issues to the distributor first and get them to make the decision of how to rectify the issue. They need to feel they have control, (Which they do as they control the KDM's but they need to realise that.)

This also brings in the point of, as soon as you receive a DCP, ingest and verify it. If it verifies you now you have it as it was created. If its faulty, it if faulty for everyone. [Wink]

Only a KDM and viewing it will show that.

James

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 09-24-2009, 08:51 AM:

This is almost as stupid as a similar issue that I had with a film festival screening of something on HDCAM.

The tape arrived a week before the festival. Yet the distributor sent guys with night-vision goggles into the auditorium and a courier to pick up the tape immediately after the screening. There was talk of having a security person in the booth for the screening (illegal in Mass.), but when the security company was told that we were showing HD and not 35mm or Imax, they apparently decided that there was no way that it could be pirated and didn't send anyone to the booth.

I had all the equipment and time necessary to make a full HDCAM clone of their tape, and this could have been done well in advance of the screening (not that I would, but they didn't know that). There was a legitimate security concern here, but it was handled stupidly.

The crazy part was that the title in question was "American Teen"--not exactly the sort of thing that interest the evil movie pirates.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 09-24-2009, 09:46 AM:

Jame said"For example, if (or when) you receive a broken DCP drive, do not run to your friend and get a copy of them. Be sure to report any issues to the distributor first and get them to make the decision of how to rectify the issue. They need to feel they have control"
I couldn't disagree more with that
A theatre that potentially could loose revenue because of there issues shouldn't have to wait
All it would take is an exhib taking a studio to court for lost revenue if the drive that was only delivered
hours before a approved and advertised show failed

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 09-24-2009, 10:12 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
They can't see what film is running or has run. They can only see what input is selected and other status type indications.

But the log in the server does show this information - DCI requires logging of almost everything (DCI 1.2 page 133 has a chart of what is supposed to be logged). FYI - Cinedigm uses these logs for VPF billing purposes.

I find all these security measures over the top as well. On one hand they say the security is so strong that they can put the content out in public without worrying about it, then they say they want all these security measures on the delivery side so no one can steal the content . . . . strange.

I honestly think the first security breach in d-cinema will be someone coming up with a way to generate their own KDMs for bogus equipment (besides, of course, camcorder piracy).

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-24-2009, 12:49 PM:

quote: David Zylstra
On one hand they say the security is so strong that they can put the content out in public without worrying about it, then they say they want all these security measures on the delivery side so no one can steal the content . . . . strange.

What's more strange is that after reading through this thread you didn't understand what's going on.

Hint: When someone who doesn't understand computers (let alone computer security) is put in charge of ensuring digital movies remain secure, we end up with this kind of situation.

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 09-24-2009, 02:58 PM:

quote: Chris Slycord
What's more strange is that after reading through this thread you didn't understand what's going on.

I'm pretty sure my comments relate a similar thought as this quote from the original post:

quote: Brad Miller
But again we are left with a dose of reality, even if someone had 50 copies of a security screening hard drive...big whoopdie fucking do! It is USELESS!!!

...or are they telling us the super-encryption actually a big load of bs and cracked without TOO much difficulty???

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-24-2009, 03:56 PM:

And I'm pretty sure I was pointing out how your comment ignored all the responses and other ideas included in them.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-24-2009, 04:37 PM:

Guys! What makes you think the KDM hasn't already been breached?? Louis

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 09-24-2009, 05:03 PM:

I think we would be the first to know if that was a case or am I wrong?

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 09-25-2009, 01:17 PM:

These type or requirements come down from the studio's.

Often the reason the studio's want content deleted right after a pre-screening is because sometimes the pre-scren package is different than the wide release print (even if it is just a different CPL ID)
Wide release keys distributed later will not work on this content, and it causes problems for sites that assume that since they already did a pre-screening that their content is AOK. Then, surprise.... Opening day and your content does not work. You then have to re-ingest the new feature package and in the meantime you have missed your first two shows.

Anyhow, that's my take from the distribution end.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-25-2009, 01:58 PM:

And there would be nothing wrong with that if they would just say that was the deal and not have the Nazi goonsquad there treating us like criminals.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-25-2009, 02:06 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Guys! What makes you think the KDM hasn't already been breached?? Louis

Print one out some time Louis. You'll need several reams of paper to do so. ON top of that the decryption signal is constantly rolling at different intervals. So you'd have to know how it rolls and so on... I beleive the CIA uses similar FIPS certified encryption/decryption as well. So anyone with the means might also enlighten us to many other interesting things...

quote: James B Gardiner
The fact you can copy them, scares them. It will take them some time before they actually understand how this all works.

James,
And this is where they have their heads so far up their butts that its a joke. The fact remains that I can take my Kodak Vi6 into ANY theter and get a very good 720P copy of the film right off the screen up to about 2.5 hours duration. Distribution has spent so much time and effort on the complexity of all the security that they still overlook the simple possibilities.

Mark

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-25-2009, 02:21 PM:

quote: Louis Bornwasser
Guys! What makes you think the KDM hasn't already been breached?? Louis

Assuming they're using very high bit strength asymmetrical key encryption methods, if it was hacked we'd have much bigger problems on our hands than movies being copied.

Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 09-25-2009, 04:41 PM:

Well, umm, what steps has anyone here taken to eliminating the occurrences of piracy by patrons?

Until it disappears (which, with what I've seen industry-wide, it never will) the security is going to continue.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-25-2009, 05:02 PM:

quote: Todd McCracken
You then have to re-ingest the new feature package and in the meantime you have missed your first two shows.

First two shows? How are you ingesting the movie, 33.6 baud modem?

I agree with what Brad said. Let the theater know why they need to delete it and they will. No shows will be lost.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
I beleive the CIA uses similar FIPS certified encryption/decryption as well.

Because movies are just as important as national security.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-25-2009, 05:08 PM:

quote:
Because movies are just as important as national security.

I think that bit of sarcasm should be our the quote of the year for 2009.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-25-2009, 05:16 PM:

The upper management-moron types have to justify their foney-baloney existence, some how. This just goes to prove how totally removed from reality they are.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 09-25-2009, 05:16 PM:

I'll second that Brad. It should be on the back of the new Film-Tech t-shirts!!

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 09-29-2009, 09:21 PM:

I guess that's one area where I'm glad we don't run any Hollywood movies on our digital screens. The studios we deal with are generally pretty easygoing (let's face it: Indian studios know their films have been pirated long before I ever receive the things). My big beef, apart from the atrociously late delivery times (I get drives as late as early afternoon opening day), is when studios (so far, all non-Hindi) decide to make edits to the film after release, and send out new CPL packages that have to be ingested (then you have to replace the feature segments in your show compositions).

Posted by Tom Sauter (Member # 616) on 10-09-2009, 02:56 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Distribution has spent so much time and effort on the complexity of all the security that they still overlook the simple possibilities

They should be much more concerned about theft from within the studios and their own organizations, where films could potientially be stored unencrypted and uncompressed. Its just like at the doctor's office, where I have to sign a bunch of privacy notification mumbo-jumbo. I could walk into any hospital in the country, unchallenged, and walk out with any information I want. Are you a family member? Yes! And I've never been asked to prove it.