Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 20,000 lumin sony 4k

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Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 10-14-2009, 03:56 PM:

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Sony exands 4k line
Source: PRO AV News Service
Publication date: October 14, 2009

By Pro AV Staff

Sony recently announced the latest addition to its 4K SXRD projector line, the SRX-T420. The new projector reportedly delivers 8.8 million pixels at more than 20,000 lumens-the highest brightness of any Sony projector to date, according to the company. The SRX-T420 is designed for use in large-venue commercial application, such as entertainment, auditorium/lecture hall presentations, virtual reality, and simulation.

The model incorporates the same 4096 x 2160 resolution as its SXRD counterparts with similar design and control elements. In addition to high brightness, though, the SRX-T420 delivers a contrast ratio of 3,000:1 plus a range of improvements in the areas of performance, interface capability, control software, and installation capability, says the company.

"The desire to take advantage or our 4K projectors' resolution and contrast on very large screens and domes has continually increased," said Andre Floyd, marketing manager for SXRD systems at Sony Electronics, in a statement. "The SRX-T420 was created to meet that demand."

According to Sony, the new projector was built to offer system integrators and AV professionals ease of use and a high level of installation flexibility, while reducing maintenance needs. The T420 can be fitted with lenses from other models in the SRX line, and the SRX-C Windows-based controller software allows control of multiple projectors over an Ethernet connection from one workstation. The T420 also offers a vertical tilt angle +/-30 degrees.

As with other T-series models, the T420 supports the Adobe RGB color space, reportedly with 95 percent coverage of the color gamut. It also supports ITU-R T.703 and DCDM (compatible with the Digital Cinema Initiatives standard) color spaces.

Interface boards are pre-installed but removable for increased functionality. The LKRI-003 board provides HD-SDI capability; while the LKRI-005 board allows the projector to be DVI-enabled with HDCP, making the projector compatible with PlayStation3 systems and Blu-ray Disc players, as well as other digital HD devices.

The SRX-T420 projector is scheduled to be available in the United States this month.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-14-2009, 04:13 PM:

So thats about 4000 more lumens then the last attempt! Big deal! They still have a thousand miles to catch up to what 4K DLP will do and they also need to make the whole projector/server much more user friendly!!

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-14-2009, 07:18 PM:

You speak pretty highly about a 4K DLP...to which neither you nor anyone else has seen. Sony's projector is a mere month away...TI is now a year over due just on the new level 2 stuff for 2K...do you really think they will have a 4K next year? Drink some more Kool-Aid.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-14-2009, 09:31 PM:

Hey, weren't you the one that said they weren't even going to do 4K and that the DLP Department will be closing down very soon and all that???
Seems top me they have demoed 4K DLP someplace recently. And yes, I expect that 4K DLP will be every bit as bright as 2K... perhaps even a tad bit brighter because grid spacing will have to be closer. Why wouldn't it be? As to generation 2 ... it is necessary to have that implemented before they can implement 4K because the 2K/4K light engines are directly swappable. Meaning if you buy a generation 2 2K projector it can later be converted into a 4K merely by swapping the engine out. Well, at least this IS Christie's plan. The only ones that might benefit from the new Sony projector are those that have already signed up with Sony. However AMC at least may not have big enough screesn in most locations to justify it. Regal on the other hand will need them. They best make this projector a little more lamp friendly as the last gestation was not and lamps for it are rediclous expensive!!

Mark

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 10-14-2009, 10:28 PM:

Well, the 4K lamps are reasonable in price if you know where to shop *cough*ACE*cough*.

As for the machines they're pretty robust as it is. Speaking from a standpoint of the SRX-R220 I find them to be relatively reliable, easy to service, and quite good presentation-wise.

However the 4K projectors will need to mature much like DLP did in it's early roll-out days.
Over the months since our install the machines have received many upgrades and updates which has progressively made them stronger.

Shortly I expect the Sony flavor of total theater control for the machines will be ready for prime-time making them even slicker.

The next series of 4K's will be more compact as well which is a good thing. Weighing in at around 900lbs the 4K as it stands now is a beast to install, especially in older buildings.

I was against the digital revolution -- still not a HUGE fan, but the Sony 4K is definitely making nice...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-14-2009, 11:41 PM:

The 4K lamps have too short of life span and I've heard of way too many lamp explosions happenning. Donno if it's the lamps or something in the projector. Also, sourcing from one lone lamp supplier is also a very dangerous thing to do. All you'd need is for the Ushio plant to be located in an earthquake zone [Eek!]

!!!

I don't think 4K DLP will need much gestation time. All the electronics and software in the Generation 2 projectors will have been wrung out by the time the 4K engines are available.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-15-2009, 07:45 AM:

Yeah Mark, I have and continue to believe in DLP's demise...the numbers are just not there. It is one thing to announce, it is another thing to deliver. I'll believe it when I see it.

Steve

Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 10-15-2009, 08:31 AM:

Steve, you're nuts if you think 35mm is somehow going to put DLP out of business.

The only way it could conceivably stall it is if they went to some sort of larger frame (8-perf.) or higher framerate.

DLP is here to stay and 4K is definitely the way to go over 2K. 2K isn't even as good as a properly-printed and projected 35mm print.

Dominic: Glad to hear you are now a fan of digital projection. I hope you are a fan of booth automation too, because I don't see any reason why they WOULDN'T implement booth automation in the big chains that are running all of their screens in DLP.

In fact, they probably view it as a security/safety issue for their projectors with what they view as idiot unskilled projectionists running them; and in some of the big chains, they may be right. . .

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-15-2009, 09:24 AM:

Steve,

You don't seem to understand that the numbers don't necessarily NEED to be there. Many large companies run departments in the red for many decades. There can be other spin offs of that technology that do however make it into other areas and can still increase a companies profits.

An interresting T.I. development which is very new is the line of Class D audio amp chips. These brand new chips will be replacing analog audio amplifiers faster then you can say Texas Instruments! Interestingly they also have theater applications since one of the chips is 2 ohm capable. Full DC protection and error reporting are included. They also sound tons better then any presently utilized analog based cinema power amplifier on the market. They require a single ended 50 volt power supply and a comparatively tiny heat sink. Amplifier efficiency into 8 ohms is right at 95%. Drops to about 87% down at 2 ohms.

Mark

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-15-2009, 09:25 AM:

quote: Karl Borowski
Steve, you're nuts if you think 35mm is somehow going to put DLP out of business.

The cost of DLP itself is what will ultimately put it out of business. There just isn't anywhere near enough of a customer base for Texas Instruments to make any profit off DLP. And it will require a LOT more than just commercial movie theaters for TI to turn a profit with DLP. The same is also true for other methods of digital projection.

The simple, easy to see fact is video projection is all but dead at the consumer level. Flat panel TV sets have taken over the business. Even at the business presentation level, which is the last strong hold of commercial projection, flat panel TV sets are rapidly eroding that market segment.

The only justification I can see for TI continuing to develop DLP is that from a marketing standpoint. They lose millions or even billions of dollars on chip development just so they can have the prestige of saying they make the imaging chips for movie theater projectors. The problem with that is 1: it isn't going to impress many people and 2: it won't get any consumers to drop a flat panel TV purchase for a video projector.

Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 10-15-2009, 09:37 AM:

Bobby, I am not arguing that the long-term future for these companies may be bleak, but Regal, Cinemark, Carmikes, and a host of other theatres are all on-board for digital conversion. This is common, public knowledge.

The fact that these chains have all gotten the green lights on billions of dollars in loans, all but guarantees that the roll out is going to happen, soon. I for one, am glad that most of them will be going with 4K projection, as 2K would be a step backwards from the optical days. It looks like they are being smart and waiting for the right technology to mature.

Mitchell, a prominent 35mm movie camera manufacturer basically built the movement that most modern 35mm cameras still use today.

They were very heavy compared to what is used today, but they were so-well-built that it put the company out of business. They built their cameras so well that people are still using them 50 years later! Panavision got its start by buying Mitchells and renting them out.

So this sort of thing has already happened in the industry before.

You are right that there is no clear direction to go from 4K, but I don't think that Barco, Sony, TI are going to be bankrupted in the short term with billions of dollars in business flowing in.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-15-2009, 11:29 AM:

Even if every commercial movie theater in the world converted over to a 4K DLP driven system, TI would be lucky to make a profit off of it. Not enough DLP chips are being sold to offset the development cost, which is in the many of millions of dollars, if not even billions. The same thing goes for Sony and its 4K LCOS system. At least Sony has the added benefit of getting money for an entire projector rather than just the imaging chips that drive it. But still, there's not enough customers to make the endeavor profitable.

In the end, the only purpose I see for it is a greater overall focus on advertising. Most DLP-based d-cinema theaters play DLP trailers before the movie begins (at the Carmike in my town does). I haven't seen a Sony 4K presentation yet, but I would be surprised if Sony didn't have a 4K "SXRD" trailer available.

Texas Instruments and Sony make so much more of their money elsewhere. Why not run what is effectively a commercial for the TI or Sony brand name in commercial theaters to build on brand identity?

Posted by Jeffry L. Johnson (Member # 453) on 10-15-2009, 03:32 PM:

At GSCA Dome Day in Cincinnati on Thursday, September 24, Sky-Skan demonstrated a Sony SRX-T420, 21,000 lumen, 4k x 2k resolution.

For an image size on the dome screen that matched the IMAX projector, the video projector was 0.5 footlamberts compared to the IMAX projector's 3 footlamberts.

So the video image was washed out, less contrast, and had less color saturation.

Resolution looked OK from where I was sitting but some demo sequences had an odd blockiness that looked like parts of the image were moving when it shouldn't be moving. This may be a transfer and cleanup artifact and not a projector problem.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-15-2009, 04:31 PM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
Why not run what is effectively a commercial for the TI or Sony brand name in commercial theaters to build on brand identity?

Actually T.I. has several headers available and the latest one is way cool! Donno about Sony... who cares really...

Mark

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-15-2009, 08:30 PM:

The last DLP trailer I saw was one featuring a waterfall. That was earlier this past summer. Is there something newer?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-15-2009, 08:57 PM:

TI is a public company...the DLP division has lost over 1 billion dollars on DLP to date. DCinema will NEVER recoup its costs. To justify the DLP division, it has to show that it somehow generates money, even collaterally. It can't.

As for Sony, the LCOS technology is about 1/3 the price to manufacture, right out of the chute. Sony, if they want, can ALWAYS undercut TI on the same resolution. Sony can port their DCinema "Dominance" into consumer sales of anything they want to label as having SXRD technology...projectors, televisions, cameras...whatever and Sony already has popular name in the television market.

Note, I have not talked about the quality of any of the technology...just the $$$$. It is also a fact that the DLP division at TI has lost MOST of their employees and that it now reports to "analog" at TI...not very promising for a digital division.

TI's last gasp hope for DLP is in the pico projector market...it will loose there too. Nikon just came out with a camera with a pico projector in it http://www.nikonusa.com/Find-Your-Nikon/Product/Digital-Camera/26186/COOLPIX-S1000pj.html. It wasn't a TI projector either. You will see LCD and LCOS beat DLP in those projectors as well...TI can't get around that their technology is inherently more expensive than the others, is physically larger than the others and that folks are just not as "quality oriented." They just want it cheap and DLP looses on cheap.

Steve

Posted by Karl Borowski (Member # 5424) on 10-16-2009, 02:11 AM:

Bobby: I don't think you and I are actually disagreeing on anything.

I'm arguing the rollout is going to happen, not whether or not it will make TI, Sony, or Barco any money.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 10-16-2009, 10:33 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Sony can port their DCinema "Dominance" into consumer sales of anything they want to label as having SXRD technology...

Oh they're not stopping there.

Sony is continuing to develop and push their 4K cameras, scanners, and intermediate system.

I half expect to see the technicians pull up in SONY branded cars at our next install...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-16-2009, 11:20 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
To justify the DLP division, it has to show that it somehow generates money, even collaterally. It can't.

Steve also contimues to miss the boat. Not all companies WANT to make or show a profit. Many times the write off is more advantageous to the companie as a whole!! This is a very common thing in the aircraft industry!! Spin-offs also can and many times do make more profit for a company than the actual original invention does, and continuation on improving that original invention usually continues that trend...

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-16-2009, 12:32 PM:

Karl...the transition to digital is going to happen and I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't. However, this discussion is more about who will be getting what sales there are and why.

As to why film will continue to hang on has everything to do with $$$$. Film remains, for the exhibitor, the cheapest form of exhibition. Cheaper to buy, cheaper to keep.

Steve

Posted by James B Gardiner (Member # 5151) on 10-21-2009, 12:17 AM:

4K is 4K..
Sony, from what I hear, have completely re-done the heating system for the new projectors. This should bring its biggest problem, colour consistency accross the screen, into the DCI spec.
Plus the reductio in size.
Sony have a decent product now.
The issue with Sony is not the technology, in general they generally make great tech, especially after Version/generation 3 or 4. Its the lock in tendancy. The monopolistic bend on everything they do.

Could you imagine that, as a cinema operator, you purchased a typical Film projector, then from then on, you either purchase the same brand, or through all your current units out if you want to try another brand.
Sony has this stigma about it. Look at Minidisk, ATRAK(I think it was called, a compression system for Sony iPods)

But it was good that Steve pointed out that TI.. The only real reason TI are doing 4K now is to make sure they don't loose 1 billion dollars, and only loose about half that. Sony forcing TI's hand has simply increased the amount TI will loose on the project long term.

James

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-21-2009, 03:30 AM:

The german head of Sony Digital Cinema told us that the 420 will not be offered in the cinema market as a DCI solution, only as a highend projector in the event and special venue market. Don't know wether this will be handled differently elsewhere.

- Carsten

Posted by Kevin Fairchild (Member # 4985) on 10-21-2009, 01:25 PM:

Well Sony is releasing a new projector. It's just the 320, not the 420.
I think it is being released at ShowEast.
Hasn't anyone seen these ads around the internet?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-28-2009, 06:18 AM:

There it is - the T420 in a DCI closet. They're boasting 4000:1 contrast ratio, half the size and weight of the 220:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/mkt-digitalcinema/mkt-digitalcinemaprojectionsystems/product-SRXR320/

New media block LMT300.

- Carsten