Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: 50% dematerialized DCP in USA ?!?

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Posted by Jacques Lerouge (Member # 5536) on 01-11-2010, 02:14 PM:

Hello,
I heard that, in US, 50% of the 5000 D-cinema get their copy by a dematerialized way ( satelite or DSL) instead of external hard drive
Is that true or nearly?

A question from a guy living in the old continent [Smile]

Cheers

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 01-11-2010, 07:32 PM:

That seems really high to me. I've always received content on hard drives.

Perhaps they are talking about just the license keys?

Posted by Jacques Lerouge (Member # 5536) on 01-12-2010, 06:34 AM:

That seems really high to me
Me too ! That's easy to transfer a KDM or a trailer with a DSL connection, but for a full DCP [Confused]

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 01-12-2010, 08:55 AM:

What I was told is that in France in particular a very large part of copies were delivered by satellite or dsl connection, as they are trying to sell the same system to us here. Is it just the salesman talking or what does the situation there look like?

Sorry to change the subject from the original but I am curious.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-12-2010, 09:26 AM:

In the first attempt of big tv BOEING was attempting to provide the content via a satalite link up but that system is now gone to the best of my knowledge

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 01-12-2010, 09:39 AM:

Just a few months ago I would say that number was too high but as of now we are recieving almost all of our content via satellite. Technicolor, Cinedigm, and Microspace (not an actual distributor I think but provides third party service to the other distributors) all send us movies and trailers via satellite. Keys come via dsl. We still get the occasional trailer or movie via hard drive but the amount of content coming that way has fallen off sharply in the last few months.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 01-12-2010, 09:48 AM:

Nothing's new, is it?

quote:
Work did not stop, however. The fire-damaged equipment was covered by insurance, and the Baird Company went on to install experimental Intermediate Film transmission systems in military aircraft, along with developing large-screen TV, plus colour television transmissions from the South Tower, using the original 500W transmitter on 8.3 metres (37 MHz) and a small studio on the ground floor of the tower. There was also an experimental 200-watt 2-metre antenna and transmitter at the fourth floor level. This was used for 600-line transmissions (though generally nothing more than field strength tests) for an ingenious scheme. Gaumont-British intended to distribute their newsreels by 2m television to their theatres, and hoped to be allowed to break the BBC monopoly to run, essentially, the world's first all-news television service. Unfortunately for them, the war intervened.

Quite what they intended to do with these electronic newsreels when they were received at the theatres, is not clear. Television projection did exist at that time, but there was no video recording, at least not in a practical form, so they would either have to be shown live, or film-recorded at the theatre. Television projection in theatres had been demonstrated then, but the picture was small, even by the standards of the screens of the day; pictures that I've seen seem to show a picture about 2-3 m across, with the projector sitting on the stage in front of the small screen.

I believe that film-recording a transmitted signal in the theatre and then processing and projecting the film a few minutes later was done during the coronation of Queen Elizabeth II, in 1953, but the Gaumont-British newsreel proposal was long before that. It sounds from the quote above that they intended it to be more than just an experiment, but I doubt that it would have been very practical, given the technology of the day. An odd technical demonstration maybe, but not a regular service to lots of theatres.

The quote comes from this page:

web page

Several other ideas which were long ahead of their time.

Posted by Jacques Lerouge (Member # 5536) on 01-12-2010, 12:43 PM:

quote: Elise Brandt
What I was told is that in France in particular a very large part of copies were delivered by satellite or dsl connection, as they are trying to sell the same system to us here. Is it just the salesman talking or what does the situation there look like?

Sorry to change the subject from the original but I am curious.

You heard "marketing", in France few of theatres are satellite equiped, i should say 1 or 2%, most of them equiped just for live events like the NY Opera.

No worries, i want to compare too [Wink]

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 01-12-2010, 02:21 PM:

Interesting since most mall leases up here specify that a tenant cannot have a satalite dish on the roof

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 01-13-2010, 08:25 AM:

Jacques; that's exactly what I thought. They told it like it's going to happpen in a few years at most; that all content will be delivered via satellite or dsl, and only some theaters will get hard drives. They also said (and this is more believable but I'm not that sure it's accurate) that a large percentage of hard drives sent out to theaters (in France, that is) will either come back damaged or not at all. As much as two in five hard drives is supposedly lost in action. This can't be right..?

The system they were selling was of course expensive and hard to maintain, and requires the agreement of all parties, distributors and theaters alike. Distributors will of course go for the even cheaper action, theaters here would end up paying the bill. As usual...

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 01-13-2010, 11:54 AM:

With a NEW 250GB EXTERNAL hard drive *retailing* for about $50, including a 1/2/3/5 years manufacturing warranty, I'm surprised they are trying to recover the hard drives after being shipped.

I mean, how much is the shipping/handling/testing cost of individually recovering a drive? $10?

If, let's say, DeLuxe went to a hard drive manufacturer and said: look, I need 5000 hard drives a week to ship out new movies, but I don't care about 3 year warranty. I just need them to work for 5 weeks. No bells and whistles, no speed, no jumpers, no packaging, no manuals, just the drive inside an USB external enclosure that's tested to work as cheap as you can make them. What price can they get? $40 for sure, probably well below $30.

Then ship out the stuff as disposable and ask theaters to throw them away. Save the personnel in the replication facility that's receiving/testing them.

If they are worried about security etc, that's lame, because you can always make a 1:1 copy of the drive and return the original.

I foresee a side business by ushers, though. Sudden flood of 250GB USB external drives on ebay. [Big Grin]

How much is satellite delivery per-film compared to a (say) $30+$10 s&h one-way disposable hard drive? In volume, I guess satellite would be cheaper, but the cost to the theater is not "free", as receiving equipment is needed, as well as maintenance of such.

PS: a know a few movies might take more than 250GB, but that should be a minority, and the cost of 320GB is not much higher, and you can always ask for those drives back [Wink]

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 01-13-2010, 12:19 PM:

Disposable hard drives in the US will never happen due to environmental; concerns. Additionally your only figuring in the the hard drive cost, not the case or the CRU sleeve (dci spec) this brings the cost up to make it economically feasible to recover the drives. Not to mention the studio's freaking out about their content floating around loose. (a well founded concern)

Of course when SSD drives come down in price mechanical drives will be abandon.

As to the percentage of films in the US over satellite I haven't seen any hard numbers, but that is the way its heading.

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 01-13-2010, 02:14 PM:

quote: Todd McCracken
Additionally your only figuring in the the hard drive cost, not the case or the CRU sleeve

As said in my post, I was quoting prices for EXTERNAL (i.e. including an external case) USB drive, which are almost equivalent to a proper CRU enclosure and come in a retail case/box/packing. Not quite CRU, but you get the point. With 2.5" drives they can be USB pòwered or, if needed, you could send a power adapter "to keep as needed" and then the drives as disposable. Drives "only" retail for $30 already instead of $40 with the enclosure/USB interface that I quoted.

About studios worring about content floating around: sure, but it's already floating around if they claim to been shipped back only (say) half the drives anyway and anybody, at anytime, can make a 1:1 copy of the drive anyway. I'm sure they don't like the idea and will try to fight it, but makes as much sense as sending someone to a booth 3 weeks after the movie opens to "make sure the hard drive is erased".

"Proper" disposable hard drives may not happen due to the enviromental concerns and whatnot, but it's already "happening" is as much as half the drives sent are never recovered/reused. I'm just saying it may make sense not to even try to recover the other half from the $ point of view.

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 01-14-2010, 07:11 AM:

Aren't the hard drives re-used? I simply always assumed they are, at least here where the volumes are not that big, hey they even ask for the memory sticks that hold trailers to be returned... admittedly I don't even know how film copies are treated outside Finland, it seems in the US it is possible, if not common, for a theater to own a copy or two. This is a real curiosity. If someone doesn't mind educating me on this I would love to know how the system works overseas or anywhere else.

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 01-14-2010, 11:06 AM:

In the US for DCP releases all prints must be returned to their distributor. Some are not and the chains are charged for the drives/print fee's.
And yes, the drives are re-used over and over again.
This is a big reason why the trend it to go to a non-physical print model for distribution.
I have never heard of a site "owning" a DCP as they cannot create keys for it, key distribution is controlled by the studio's.

Though in time I could see this happening for independent releases, perhaps on a long term lease type agreement. As you could issue a 4 of 5 year key (at least in theory) Though it would be tied to a specific player or group of players.

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 01-15-2010, 08:21 AM:

Sorry, what I meant by owning a copy was owning a Film copy. The film side of the distribution chain interests me quite lot since I know nothing about it (in the US), but I take it the digital side is quite similar to what we do here. It's just bits and pieces of conversation here concerning films that throws me off sometimeswith notions like shredding films and such, it is never done by theaters here. Or maybe I have misunderstood something?

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 01-15-2010, 10:01 AM:

Oh..hehehhe

Yes, sites can own film prints here . Heck, I own a couple of 35mm 5 reel features myself [Smile]

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 01-16-2010, 02:58 PM:

Hi all,

I agree with the Jacques Lerouge's assumptions: DCP are not delivered via Satellite in France, excepted in some very rare cases, who tends more on marketing demonstrations than other things...

Most of the Features DCP are delivered via hard disks (Technicolor, Deluxe, deliver from Great Brittain to most European countries) or DSL links (using "local" providers services, like SmartJog, GlobeCast, Ymagis, ...).

Most of the Trailers & Advs are delired by DSL links - disk, DVD/BR or USB sticks are rare now (but still exists anyway). I think we can asusme an 50/50 repartition with hard-disk/dematerialized(DSL) delivery, for now, where you don't have to deliver 5-8 digital movies per week... So, I guess hard disks and physical transporter will still do the job they did for years with 35mm.

Most (if not all) KDMs are delivered via eMail - rarely via phone/modem (some's think this is the most secure way...).

Satellite is used for Life Events in France anyway.

Regarding the "hard disk return rate" that Elise pointed out, we must understand that, in France:
* most operators speaks... french, not english - so hard to read/understand/reply to english speaking UPS/Fedex messages
* the culture, for 35mm, was to let the local transporter take care of 35m rotations...
So, well, I know numerous disks from TDC and Deluxe wandering in french booths, waiting for someone to call UPS... The operator won't probably do it for months... (I even know some disks that are in the booth for more than one year now...).

Local laboratories are delivering there messages in French, and most of the time have contract with local transporters, so the hard disk return ratio is ok.

Regarding CRU dataport, I read the Todd post, and was surprised by the following assumption: "the CRU sleeve (dci spec)". I have probably not understood what you wanted to say Todd, but in what CRU is "DCI spec" related?

Cheers,
--
lem

Posted by Jacques Lerouge (Member # 5536) on 01-26-2010, 05:41 PM:

I have sent an email to writer of the article i had read.
He said me that he didn't use real stats, but he will get more info in few weeks for France and Europe theatre satellite equipements.

To be continued...

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 01-27-2010, 07:38 PM:

Dangerous to use stats from parties that have an interest in selling this kind of equipments... Probably better to ask labs for what they practice in real life.