Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Blu-Ray player compatible with Barco DP100

This is topic Blu-Ray player compatible with Barco DP100 in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000488

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 01-12-2010, 06:55 PM:

After some research on this topic I am more confused than ever.

I checked the Barco DP100 specs which report that it has a DVI input which I'm guessing I can use with a Blu-Ray player HDMI output.

Is this correct or am I way off base?

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 01-12-2010, 06:57 PM:

You can get a DVI-HDMI converter

Posted by Phil Ranucci (Member # 3820) on 01-12-2010, 06:59 PM:

Well it does have 2 DVI inputs, but I don't think they are HDCP compliant, which means no 1080i.Haven't tried it, we use their ACS2048 for other inputs, but have never tried blu-ray into the ACS either.

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 01-12-2010, 07:39 PM:

Depends on what firmware and board revisions you are running. All new Barco versions are HDCP compliant and work well with a HDMI/DVI converter at 1080p. Probably best to contact your dealer to check. You also have to set a few things in a Macro to get it working.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 01-12-2010, 11:22 PM:

The DP100 is not HDCP compliant. There may be an upgrade card for the Dp100, but I'm not sure.

The best way is to use a DCinema Scaler like the Barco ACS-2048. Set your BluRay player to output 1080i via component video. The ACS-2048 will also give you a variety of options for croping and scaling the image, which is especially useful for utilizing the DP100s optional anamorphic attachment.

Posted by Hendarto Ciputra (Member # 4868) on 01-17-2010, 04:52 AM:

The DVI inputs in the DP100 are not HDCP compliant no more upgrade to it as i know of. A solution i use to playback bluray at native format is to use a $100 device like HDfury to it converts the HDMI/DVI to vga and gets rid of the hdcp. No resolution converstion only from digital to analog. You may have to use the ACSAR for the DP100 or get a low cost scaler like from Gefen.

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 01-17-2010, 05:02 AM:

All Barco projectors (current ones) can be HDCP. It is an option. Those I work on don't have this option.
We use the ACS scaler from Barco to convert the YUV signal from the blue ray player to DVI.

The acsar was not my favorit toy on the DP100. I removed them often to have the 2 DVI inputs available.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 01-17-2010, 10:14 AM:

I think the BARCO scaler is a little bit pricy for what Eric is trying to do. One of the smaller "fixed purpose" stand alone scalers from Geffen would suit his needs just as well and is loads cheaper.

Mark

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 01-17-2010, 10:21 AM:

Do you have a link to that product?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-17-2010, 10:40 AM:

The ACS2048 is an excellent scaler. Not only will it output at 2K native in either 8, 10 or 12-bit (twin-link)...it will also properly format the image too, if you know how to use the Aspect Ratio, VCrop and HCrop settings. For what it does, it is an incredibly low-cost scaler.

There are indeed other scalers that are cheaper and most won't do what the ACS2048 does.

If your source has 1080 output, then the DP100 will fill the imager's height (for 16:9 and smaller ratios). However, if you have less vertical resolution and are at a greater than 48Hz refresh, it will not fill the height (no scaling by the projector in "standard processing...which is required for frequencies above 48Hz).

As for Gefen...I definitely have mixed views of their stuff. I and others have found them to be hit and miss. Some of their stuff just works...others...just don't work...so beware.

If you are looking for a box that will get computer and component (DVD/BluRay) into a 1080p form...the Extron has a box called the RGB-DVI 300

Steve

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 01-17-2010, 01:10 PM:

Calibre has a line of DCI video processors that are quit nice. Ive had some experience with these and they are loaded with features and work great. Not sure how the price compares to the Barco processor.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-17-2010, 04:24 PM:

One thing that the ACS2048 has that I haven't seen on others is full HDCP support. That is, you can plug in an HDCP device (BluRay, Cable...etc)...it will tell the device that it is a Display...it will allow you to scale it so a 2.39 ratio movie will indeed be 2048 x 857 on the DCinema projector and re-encode as HDCP to keep HDCP compliance (thus the projector must also be HDCP compliant).

It also scales really well. For those that are familiar with the Folsom ImagePro...it is a purpose built version of that with very specific outputs.

Steve

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 01-17-2010, 05:05 PM:

I have a lot of equipment in my A/V rack, and the ACS-2048 is by far my favorite item. It always manages to get the best quality picture possible even out of mediocre sources.

If you do a lot of alternate content, you really should consider the ACS-2048 over lower cost less versatile units.

Posted by Hendarto Ciputra (Member # 4868) on 01-17-2010, 09:33 PM:

guys the threadstarter asking it's compatibility with DP100 which is definetely has no HDCP hence the need to use device like hdfury and the older ACSAR with VGA input or any cheaper scaler whith DVI output that can be use as 1080P passtru

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 01-17-2010, 09:54 PM:

Interesting, the ACS2048 seems to convert HDCP signals into non_HDCP signals which would be bypassing the whole purpose of HDCP.

We do have a Barco DP2000 which I believe is HDCP compliant; however, it sounds like a still need a scalar to make sure the image fits.

Thanks for all the good information, this is a bit of a learning curve from 35mm film.

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 01-17-2010, 10:08 PM:

quote: Eric Robinson
Interesting, the ACS2048 seems to convert HDCP signals into non_HDCP signals which would be bypassing the whole purpose of HDCP.

It does not do this. If you plug it into a non HDCP complaint projector, and then try to feed it 1080p via HDMI, it will either not handshake the source device, or it will display an error message on it's screen.

You can however send 1080i via component video through it without any problems. The ACS-2048 does a great job scaling 720p and 1080i. No comb artifacts are visible on 1080i sources.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-17-2010, 10:11 PM:

Eric, you didn't read my post very well. the ACS 2048 re-encodes HDCP on is outputs...not strip them.

If your DP2000 is HDCP compliant (they needed an option board for HDCP up until sometime in 2009)...then you can connect a BluRay directly...if you set your BluRay to 1080p and don't mind that the output will be constrained to 1920x1080...including scope (1920x804) and not fill the same screen as your DCinema Scope images.

Steve

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-17-2010, 11:16 PM:

The 2048 will output 1080P to only an HDCP compliant projector.
It does output up to 1080i to devices not HDCP compliant.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-17-2010, 11:40 PM:

Sam, it is more source dependent...it outputs HDCP, if HDCP source. As for its output rate...you are mistaken...it is always 2048x1080p at either 50 or 59.94Hz (user selectable). Since it was designed with DCinema projectors in mind, it knew they all could handle that with the frequency being country dependent.

Your only other choices on output are the bit rates...8, 10 or 12 with 10 and 12 requiring twin-link connection (both DVI ports).

Steve

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-18-2010, 08:56 AM:

I feel like I'm still married, always wrong.

The ACS 2048 scaler is HDCP compliant, but this comes to nothing if the projector downstream is not. At least this is what I've been told by Barco and others knowledgeable in this area.

In my experience with this, the Barco DP2000 would not accept 1080P until we upgraded it with an HDCP compliant TI board. After that it took 1080P content from the DigiDesign alternate content server as well as the Blu Ray player.

We are using dual DVI and the projector is set for 12 bits.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-18-2010, 09:04 AM:

Sam, I think you are confusing 1080p and HDCP being tied in some way. They are not. HDCP stands alone. You can play all of the 1080p source material you want (that does not have the HDCP handshake) with the ACS2048 on a non-HDCP projector. Again, it is the source that drives the HDCP part...the ACS2048 merely keeps the same copy protection as the source and hence is HDCP compliant...it doesn't strip it.

The DP1200-DP2000 does indeed have a low-cost HDCP module available for them if they were made before 2009...2009 and beyond units are all HDCP compliant from the factory.

Steve

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-18-2010, 10:49 AM:

So name some other readily available sources of 1080P apart from Blu Ray.

This is exactly what most people want to play.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-18-2010, 10:56 AM:

Why...Playstation, of course! Computers come to mind.

And the BluRay would need to have its HDCP flag set.

Steve

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 01-18-2010, 11:10 AM:

The title of this thread starts with Blu-Ray.

Why don't you give a run-thru of this whole issue unless its been covered already someplace else? I know you know your stuff, but this is not helpful to directly answering the question in a direct and definitive way.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-18-2010, 11:38 AM:

Sam,

In terms of the progression of this thread...it was indeed asked relating a BluRay to DP100...which is fine unless the BluRay has its HDCP flag set.

Mike Olpin, a user of the DP100 answered the question well, in my opinion (and I had not added anything at that point).

Someone else brought up Gefen and I defended the ACS2048 over the Gefen and gave reasons. I also gave an example of a component to DVI scaler to get 1080 source material (analog) into the DVI inputs of the DP100.

I'll admit, that a follow up clarification on the ACS2048, I did bring up the HDCP thing that would not help the original user but did better define the ACS2048's ability and what happens with HDCP sources.

Your statements equating 1080i to non-HDCP and 1080p to HDCP are simply not correct...one is a resolution, one is a form of copy protection. If one were to set their BluRay to 1080i and it is HDCP protected, it still won't work on the DP100 on the DVI inputs. One would need to use the component outputs (not part of the HDCP thing) and have them converted to DVI for the DP100...using a device like the ACS2048 or other suitable scaler.

I'm not trying to get into an argument or worry about being shown wrong...just pointing out incorrect statements so one does not draw incorrect conclusions.

Steve

Posted by Eric Robinson (Member # 2966) on 01-19-2010, 08:11 PM:

My conclusion about the HDCP stripping indeed was in error. I now have a much better understanding regarding the different formats and how HDCP might be coupled or not associated. It all starts at the source.

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 01-20-2010, 10:20 AM:

quote: Eric Robinson
We do have a Barco DP2000 which I believe is HDCP compliant; however, it sounds like a still need a scalar to make sure the image fits.

Eric, we've got DP1200 and a DP1500. Ours handle the Blu-Ray image fine without a scaler.

Posted by Carey Barber (Member # 1586) on 01-21-2010, 09:41 PM:

We have an ACS-2048 hooked up to a Barco DP3000.

We have had no luck getting Blu Ray to work through an HDMI-to-DVI cable. Component video works fine.

Is this an HDCP issue? From my reading on this site it sounds like the ACS-2048 is HDCP compliant...So, is the projector itself the problem?

If that is the case, is there definitely an upgrade that can make the DP3000 compliant? How much does this addition cost? Perhaps more importantly, is it even worth it, or is the difference between component and HDMI/DVI not that significant?

Please note that this is all pretty new to me...Hopefully this is not too goofy a question. I have read this entire thread several times and it certainly sounds like our problem. How do you determine whether your projector is HDCP compliant? (This projector was installed in January of 2009.)

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 01-22-2010, 02:53 AM:

On your question if this is a problem of HDCP yes it is.
Can you do an upgrade on you Barco yes
Is it wotrh it?
Now this is my point of vieuw: non

I've connected a blue ray on a dp3000 and projected on a screen of 10meters of height (and 25m large). The quality was impressive.
I'm not sure if there will be a big difference if you input the signal in HDMI (and even worse, if your clients will see a difference).

Posted by Carey Barber (Member # 1586) on 01-22-2010, 08:30 AM:

Can HDCP compliance be accomplished through a firmware update or is this an actual piece of hardware that needs to be installed? Does anyone have an idea of how much it costs?

This is mostly just for curiosity's sake...I doubt that we would actually purchase the upgrade, especially since component works and we very rarely need external sources. Also, I would like to be able have as much info as possible for my superiors.

Thanks to everyone for all the info! Once again, this site has been incredibly helpful.

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 01-22-2010, 09:24 AM:

I believe a hardware update

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-22-2010, 09:34 AM:

To the best of my knowledge, there is no upgrade path for the DP100.

For the DP3000, I've heard conflicting answers from Barco. If it is upgradable, then it is a HARDWARE upgrade. I've done the upgrade on the DP2000. It requires adding a PC board to the card cage (one removes a shorting plug and then slide in the new board). The cost was relatively low (well under a grand). If you have a DP3000, then I would inquire about getting it HDCP compliant. There will come a time when BluRays will not support HD on component...or so I'm told (something like 2013 or so).

Steve

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 01-22-2010, 04:08 PM:

ok I just had a bad taught ...
When not using the 12 bit output the signal on DVI A and B contain both the same signal.
What happens when you hook on an HDCP compliant monitor on DVI A and a DP3000 on DVI B?
Will the monitor take care of the protection and give a clear signal to the projector?
And by that way, you will also get a great signal control [Wink]

Just a taught, I don't have the correct monitor to test this.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 01-22-2010, 06:07 PM:

I proper HDCP compliant "repeater" will shut down the output on the non-HDCP compliant output or possibly both.

Steve

Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 10-30-2011, 11:28 PM:

It has been 646 days since the last post.

Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 10-30-2011, 11:28 PM:

We've 'experimented' with trying to get an HDMI HDCP signal to reach a non-HDCP compliant projector (in our case an NEC NC800)without any success at all and have concluded it can't be done - at least not easily.
I read of a few possible 'work-arounds' to get the HDCP handshake to work including using an HDMI splitter - but unfortunately that didn't work with either an active or passive splitter.

We are left with the option of using component analogue output from the bluray input via a Christie CineIPM (by the way, is the Christie reckoned to be a good switcher/scaler?).
As far as I can tell so-far using analogue component actually looks really very good - but as mentioned elsewhere the problem is that in around 2013 BluRay discs could start to force players to only output standard definition on the analogue component outputs.

So, we are looking at an HDfury which extracts HD analogue component from an HDMI/HDCP source.

I don't know if there is a way of upgrading the NEC NC800 to become HDCP compliant - does anybody know? I suspect it can't be done, but if it can and somebody can point me in the right direction..

I did contact Christie about the CineIPM to see if that could be upgraded to be HDCP compliant but they said definitely not. Just as a side-note Christie seem to be very good at promptly responding to tech questions by email, but I have yet to find a contact at NEC who will reply.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-31-2011, 06:54 AM:

Ultimately both the NEC and the Barco DP100 can be made HDCP compliant. If one gets the DCI required GORE board or Glue Cable upgrades, they will change out their board for a "type 5"...which is HDCP compliant. Early DP100s will also need a change in DVI boards as the original has a "repeater" on it which can tick off some HDCP sources.

-Steve

Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 10-31-2011, 10:06 AM:

Hmm.. very useful info Steve thanks. I did ask the supplier of the NEC about HDCP and they just confirmed it wasn't compliant but no mention was made of a potential upgrade.
So GORE board has nothing to do with the media block?
Will have to follow-up on this. Thanks.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-01-2011, 08:38 PM:

William - if you look back into the thread you started initially about buying a second hand series-I projector, this issue has been discussed there already.

For now, you should get the HD-Fury. Even if NEC supplies the GoreBoard upgrade for the NC800, this will cost you 50 times as much. As long as your UK distributors do not force you into the Gore-Board upgrade for DCI-complicance, you should be fine with the HDFury. A scaler could be cascaded if you need more setup options.

- Carsten

Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 11-02-2011, 02:38 PM:

Thanks Carsten - yes, looking back and re-reading some of that other thread there is some info on there that makes more sense now than it did a few weeks ago when I knew virtually zero about all this (and before we had the projector).

Although a 'board upgrade' was available on the NEC it was never clarified what exactly this was for and certainly HDCP was never mentioned. We assumed it was a series 2 type upgrade.

One of the reasons for me posting and responding to items on this forum is that we have had a real difficulty getting ANY info at all from the projector suppliers. I hope that some of our questions, experiments with HDCP compliance and general stumbling through these issues will also help others here in a similar position.

Incidentally, a thought struck me about using an HDfury - I wonder if the same flag on a BluRay that can tell a player not to output HD on component could also stop an HDfury from outputting HD on component when extracted from HDMI?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-02-2011, 08:08 PM:

Well, that's the special magic in the HD-Fury anway... there is a reason why this is the only product like this on the market ;-)

BTW - most players already now will not output HD over component anyway.

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20042864-1.html
http://dme.ghost2.net/hdfury/about/

As I said - try to get one of these second hand Sonys.

- Carsten

Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 11-02-2011, 10:33 PM:

But Carsten did you see this on one of the links you posted?

quote:
- New design of HDfury is currently underway, this design is 100% compliant to HDCP request since it won’t allow analog output if HDCP is activated

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-02-2011, 11:06 PM:

Yes I did - get one with the current design, quickly ;-)

- Carsten