Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digital Equipment Useful Life

This is topic Digital Equipment Useful Life in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 04-03-2010, 11:56 PM:

Not that digital equipment has been in use for a couple of years, how long do you believe each component can be used before it needs to be replaced?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-04-2010, 07:34 AM:

It is a guess at this point.

Typical electronics have a 7-10 year useful life...that is, before technology typically makes it seem hopelessly outdated, regardless of if it continues to work, or not.

There is also the issue of being able to repair 7-10 year old electronics. Things change so fast, especially with emerging technology that one can't necessarily support it due to the lack of availability of parts. That is, perhaps a critical processor is no longer manufactured since it is so far out of date. Thus, a product maker may face the choice of a costly redesign of obsolete product or merely pulling the plug and requiring replacement.

An advantage of standards, like SMPTE and DCI is that you have many entities trying to making conforming devices. This tends to reduce obsolescence some as there are going to be common items and also the use to stale and multi-source technology. This tends to be more stable.

That said, we will never enjoy the stability we had with film as it was electromechanical. A good machine shop can create most anything in a film projector. There is a reason why people can STILL use film projectors that went OUT OF PRODUCTION in excess of 50-years ago.

Anyone thinking that their DCinema equipment is still going to be viable 7-10 years after purchase is fooling themselves and the likelihood of it being viable 15-years after purchase goes down geometrically. Will it still work? That is another story. I suspect, many of them might.

We have three 1.3K DCinema projectors still in service (Barco DP50). They are no longer viable DCinema projectors as no studio will make content for them. However, 7 years after their installation, they still perform 7-days a week doing traditional A/V projector work. Very few parts have been needed...after the first year (where a couple of color boards did have issues), we have had to replace one mirror (folding after the integrating rod) and one fan. Not a bad service record (though I can now hear the sounds of more fans that will likely need replacement). It would not surprise me if a board fails, we will be told that it is no longer serviceable or that the board cost would exceed the value of the projector now.

I think that the industry is going to see a progressive abandonment of the Series 1 2K projectors now that series 2 is here. Series 2 is the first DCI compliant projector and that is likely where the cut-off will be. Hopefully, the projector manufacturers changed the least they could between series 1 and 2 designs (of the projector itself, not the TI stuff) to minimize obsolescence. When/If 4K hits the DLP world...that may shake things up a bit too and really put the hurt on 2K and particularly series 1 2K, which will then be 2-levels back.

Again, it is anyone's guess.

Steve

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-04-2010, 10:17 AM:

It would really suck to have a 10 year payment plan on 4 or 5 year equipment. Louis

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-04-2010, 12:39 PM:

Well, lets go back 7-years...2003. We were still in 1.3K projectors (at least in April, for sure). None are in use for DCinema any longer...they were expensive too...about double what current projectors cost.

Now the first 2K projectors. They are all still in service but they really show their age. They can't do full-frame triple-flash 3D. The FFIB boards didn't come out until late-late 2008 (just 2 years ago). EFIB machines are going to become orphans and then the rest of the Series 1 machines as we get further away from them being current. Another issue is that despite some thinking there are large numbers of them...they are actually going to always be a smaller percentage of the industry.

I think people WILL get 7-10 years out of their equipment...I wouldn't bet on beyond that...at least not for all of it.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-04-2010, 06:54 PM:

This is all certainly unpredictable but if one looks at DTS they have done a remarkable job supporting the 7000 DTS 6 players most of which are still operating today. Many are now 17 years old and show no sign of being relegated as a door stop. During Showest I made a service call to a theater still running a Dolby Cat 699 SRD Penthouse.... still operating perfectly!

In my first Dolby training class they stated a 15 year support intention on the first DSP and DSS. Dolby has always been pretty true to their words in that regard.

With T.I. being the foundry for all DLP projectors it may actually prove in the long run to be an advantage... IF they keep it going for the next 15 years. There has recently been a slight resurgence of rear screen DLP TV sales due to all the 3-D tv coming out. And I have not seen DLP die out in any other field... I believe you will see it appear in many other ways... including small projectors built into Laptops and Cell Phones. DLP only seems to advance in spite of other rumors and predictions. Like many NASA spin offs I am very sure that there have been many technilogical spin offs in semiconductor engineering and manufacture from this technology that have helped T.I. to advance and develop others...

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-04-2010, 08:05 PM:

DTS is probably not the best comparison. And they struggled to keep things backwards compatible too (having to come up with means to have modern drives behave like their 4X great-grand parents. DTS also completely controlled DTS' audio. They also changed their schemes a bit throughout the years. Ever try to play a circa 1993 disc in a modern player...good luck.

Fortunately, what DTS needed from other industries was relatively easy to keep up with. There wasn't too much custom that they didn't control. And yes, they are to be commended for keeping their system going as long as they did. It has only been recently that they dropped all of the "6" series units from being serviceable. However, the DTS6AD shows a bit more of what happens in the DSP world. It was a relatively short lived product that went from sale to unservicable (from the factory) in less than 7 years. I have one client that will NEVER buy another DTS (now Datasat) ANYTHING in the future as a result of the 6AD support. Datasat now has a new audio processor as well as a new DCinmea content player too.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-05-2010, 09:24 AM:

Steve,

I'm still saying 10 to 15 because of what many manufacturers tell me. The Sony lease deal is a 10 year lease for instance... their stuff has to last at least 10 years. DCI is also saying no more major changes in it's specs for at least 10 years and that the studios are happy with the way it sits now at FIPS 140.

You always find people that won't buy some product brand... I can introduce you to differnt theater owners who won't buy...
Dolby
DTS
Smart
Christie
Simplex
Cinemecanica
Century
JBL
E-V
Etc
Etc

Theater owners have all been bitten in many ways! So have most service techs... by the same companies listed above!

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-05-2010, 11:23 AM:

Please understnd that 10 years is a FINANCIAL scheme, for bankers only.

It has absolutely nothing to do with technological life; which remains to be seen for computer/digital equipment. Louis

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-05-2010, 11:57 AM:

For those of us down the food chain, what used value, if any, will these have? Pieces only, or even that?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-05-2010, 12:26 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
DTS is probably not the best comparison. And they struggled to keep things backwards compatible too (having to come up with means to have modern drives behave like their 4X great-grand parents. DTS also completely controlled DTS' audio. They also changed their schemes a bit throughout the years. Ever try to play a circa 1993 disc in a modern player...good luck.

Not trying to get off the subject, but just as a general FYI, only the first two dts releases won't play on a current dts player (Jurassic Park and Heart & Souls). Those have since been re-mastered. Any other discs that do not work only need to be re-burned onto one disc using either CD-R or DVD-R media excluding the trailer file to work.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-05-2010, 12:39 PM:

Sure Mark...every manufacturer has its supporters and detractors. I was merely mentioning that the 6AD as an example of a product that became unsupportable due to, among other things, obsolescence. And it didn't make it 10 or 15 years. From the time they stopped selling it to when they stopped supporting it was only a few years.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 04-05-2010, 05:02 PM:

Anyway you look at it, DTS did a far better job at looking after their customers than the Sony SDDS debacle.

Now THERE'S a brand I'll have nothing more to do with...ever.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-05-2010, 09:07 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
And it didn't make it 10 or 15 years.

There are many still in service that are probably 10 years old or approaching that. Just because DTS does not support it does not mean that a resourseful dealer can not. It is also highly possible that Quality presentations can still do repairs on them, they still do repairs and support the DTS6. Perhaps in his golden years Carl will be repairing DLP boards...

Mark

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 04-06-2010, 03:12 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
DTS is probably not the best comparison. And they struggled to keep things backwards compatible too (having to come up with means to have modern drives behave like their 4X great-grand parents. DTS also completely controlled DTS' audio. They also changed their schemes a bit throughout the years. Ever try to play a circa 1993 disc in a modern player...good luck.

quote: Brad Miller
Not trying to get off the subject, but just as a general FYI, only the first two dts releases won't play on a current dts player (Jurassic Park and Heart & Souls). Those have since been re-mastered. Any other discs that do not work only need to be re-burned onto one disc using either CD-R or DVD-R media excluding the trailer file to work.

But, Brad, isn't this kind of a double-edged sword? It could be argued that, as storage capacities increased over the last fifteen years, DTS' continuing to make the units so thoroughly backward-compatible limited their ability to innovate (can you imagine how much less compression DTS soundtracks could have had with DVD-sized storage to work with?).

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-06-2010, 11:11 PM:

Gena,
DTS actually has a working Lossless XD-10 player and I installed one of them a number of years back. Unfortunately the format never went anywhere because it would have required dual inventory of the disks. Never the less at least the one I installed ran in a Giant Screen location for a number of years. When DTS made it's first round of major corporate changes it was abandoned and that unit was pulled from service. I loaded the Standard at the time XD-10 OS onto it and it is still serving duty in some theater in Wyoming. The lossless DTS system has since gone on to be included on many Blu-Ray disks.

Mark

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 04-07-2010, 01:23 PM:

As for equipment life, one of our internal HDD's on our server is dying, being replaced later today. Assuming it was new upon install, it had a life of less than 6 months.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-07-2010, 04:58 PM:

Which brand of server? If Dolby, there is a firmware update for the DSS100 that should address many alleged hard drive failures being erroneously reported.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 04-07-2010, 05:13 PM:

It's probably the Doremi.

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 04-07-2010, 06:09 PM:

It is the doremi. We had an issue yesterday with picture and sound cutting in and out, sent a report in to doremi and they told us drive 3 was going bad, yet it says its working perfectly fine. Personally I think its a bad cable or connection going into the projector.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-09-2010, 09:38 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Which brand of server? If Dolby, there is a firmware update for the DSS100 that should address many alleged hard drive failures being erroneously reported.

Interestingly I updated a DSS-100 just yesterday and one of the drives was still at Ver. SN05 after the update. I tried running it a second time and it would not accept the update... It'll have to be replaced anyway. I think it's high time Dolby abandoned hardware RAID and went the software route like the rest of the world has. There are so many advantages to software over hardware.

Hard drives are cheap if you do not buy them from the manufacturer of the server. I have now got a complete extra set of hard drives numbered 0 through 3 with the raid pre-built and pre-loaded with the OS at each Dolby Server location. All they have to do is slap in the new set of drives and load content. Loading content is much faster then waiting for a RAID rebuild to happen on a weekend night!!! You might loose just one show... not a whole series of them.

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 04-10-2010, 06:50 PM:

Thats the joy of working for one of the "Big 3", DCIP money takes care of everything, and the new drive arrived in under 24 hours from doremi.

Mark, I noticed you're from Bountiful. I believe my tech is working on a new theatre of ours we plan to open there.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-10-2010, 07:47 PM:

If it's the one I'm thinking it is I sure hope ya'll totally gutted the place, walls and all. If not you're in for some nasty surprises!! Good location though to cater to the teens in this area with 2nd run stuff...
There will also be much more competition in this area in the next year or so as there are two other multiplexs going up with in about a 7 mile radius.

Mark

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 04-10-2010, 08:16 PM:

Yeah, sounds like it, from the horror stories he's told me. I do believe we went in there and totally gutted and renovated the entire building.