Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Silver 3d paint?

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Posted by Jonathan Bodge (Member # 4072) on 04-13-2010, 01:52 PM:

I installed a silver screen recently and paint was chipping off and over all it didn't look great. So as an option for future options I thought of paint. Does anyone have experience with painting silver over a regular matt screen?
http://www.paintonscreen.com/3dprojectionscreen.html

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 04-13-2010, 02:03 PM:

you installed it recently. Is it a new screen or used?

Posted by Jonathan Bodge (Member # 4072) on 04-13-2010, 02:47 PM:

Richard, it was a new screen. Honestly I didn't make note of the manufacturer, I was just asked to install. I'll find out if I can and post.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 04-13-2010, 05:18 PM:

Digital Paint????

High reflectivity paint I can understand.

Aluminized paint, yes.

Silver paint, ditto....

but DIGITAL Paint???

Apart from the very dubious advertising of this company, if you installed a NEW silver screen and it's flaking, CONTACT THE MANUFACTURER.

If you try and use this "digital paint" not only would you destroy the screen, you will also loose any hope of a guarantee claim.

..and if it IS flaking and new, I would also never use that company's products again.

Posted by Jonathan Bodge (Member # 4072) on 04-13-2010, 09:57 PM:

The name of the MFG was: STRONG / MDI
1440 Raoul-Charrette
Joliette, Quebec
Canada
Ian, yes it may be questionable, however, I understand that the gain of any screen can drop considerably only after a few months in service. I once painted a screen with technicote with white screen paint with good results. I just priced a good quality silver screen that was way beyond what a screen should cost and I suggested painting it. My question is, has anyone done it and what are the results?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 04-13-2010, 10:08 PM:

I bet it has to be sprayed totally evenly since any flaws in the spraying techniques would really show up when light hits the surface.

..why it's more common to replace a silver screen when flaws begin to show or have shown than even try to repaint it - why also you never clean a silver screen when someone throws soda drinks on it for the clean spot will be apparent when the light hits the surface.

-Monte

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-13-2010, 10:35 PM:

Stewart sprays their silver upside down to minimize over spray
( mottle effect)

Hurley prints their silver.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 04-14-2010, 12:10 AM:

I have never had a MDI screen have coating issues yet

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-14-2010, 08:23 AM:

quote: Jonathan Bodge
I just priced a good quality silver screen that was way beyond what a screen should cost and I suggested painting it. My question is, has anyone done it and what are the results?

Says who? I'm finding that Silver screens are going for anywhere between $7.50 and $9.00 per square foot. They are all more expensive than their white counterparts and they generally are of poorer quality than their white counterparts (blemishes, eveness....etc). Some clearly are worse than others. Now if you price Stewart....then yes it will seem excessive. They are typically 3-5 times as expensive as typical cinema screens. I don't have experience with them on Silver but their white screens really do pop better than others. Their gain is always spot on too...few others have that sort of consistency. They are also (really) seamless. That said, they are too pricey for most cinema use but not for screening rooms.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-14-2010, 10:02 AM:

quote: Jonathan Bodge
I understand that the gain of any screen can drop considerably only after a few months in service. I once painted a screen with technicote with white screen paint with good results. I just priced a good quality silver screen that was way beyond what a screen should cost and I suggested painting it. My question is, has anyone done it and what are the results?

Stewart once told me Silver has a gain of around 18 which has to be muted to a usable gain. The screen then gets another coating which determines its final gain. It is this final coat that is the cause of smudges and finger prints ( difference in surface gain ) making Silver high maintenance.

Posted by Jonathan Bodge (Member # 4072) on 04-15-2010, 11:15 AM:

The quote was from Stewart. I've been in television projection for a few years, I do installations (Colbert Report for example) interview desk rear projection and I forget that a screen for a major show costing 10 or 20 grand is just part of the budget. When I help old cinema friends out I should remember that they are on a tight budget. BTW, on Colbert we used Christie micro tiles around his desk. Amazing product.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-15-2010, 04:04 PM:

quote: Jonathan Bodge
BTW, on Colbert we used Christie micro tiles around his desk. Amazing product.

The Micro tile industry is booming and product is evolving. A good possibility ( years ) we could see front projection large screen replaced with a back lit technology.

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 04-15-2010, 10:08 PM:

Not too long ago somebody here on Film-Tech reported receiving a can of "3D" paint from Technicote only to find that Technicoates label had been glued over the original ordinary silver paint label from Lowes.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 04-16-2010, 09:58 AM:

Another good reason that Technikote is no longer with us. Louis

Posted by Jonathan Smith (Member # 5609) on 04-16-2010, 10:03 AM:

I thought society had already reached a consensus that "3D" was the new catch phrase, not "digital."

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-16-2010, 11:37 PM:

If the screen is defective I bet they will replace it for you although you may have to use that screen until the replacement arrives. My experience has always been that MDI is the best, then Harkness. Hurley and Big Sky (Old technikote) are companies one doesn't even consider buying from any longer. In fact I installed a couple of Big Sky matte white screens late last year and they were absolute crap, so far they have not stood behind them either. I replaced both of those with MDI. Hurleys printing process isn't worth a crap either and is extremely inconsistent. Initial reports on the new Chinese screen are very positive. They bake the silver coating on somehow and one person I know that got a sample recently said he couldn't scratch it off rubbing his fingernail down the surface. They have also been approved by Real-D which puts things through a fairly rigerous qualification. Neither Hurley or Big Sky screens are approved by DCI nor will they be in their present form.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-17-2010, 07:24 AM:

There is also Severtson, now approved for Real-D.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 04-17-2010, 10:41 AM:

quote: Jonathan Smith
I thought society had already reached a consensus that "3D" was the new catch phrase, not "digital."

Pretty sure the marketeers want the public to think the "D" in "3D" stands for "digital."

Three Times The Digital... [Wink]

Posted by Jonathan Smith (Member # 5609) on 04-17-2010, 02:21 PM:

I thought the "D" in 3D stood for depreciation [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 04-18-2010, 06:58 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
There is also Severtson, now approved for Real-D.

Is there a gain a Silver screen has to meet for DCI certification?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-18-2010, 07:42 PM:

DCI does not have a silver screen certification, as far as I know. Real-D does as they will ghost horribly if the S/N ratio is not high. They also seem to have fixation about 2.4 gain Silver screens....so if you have Real-D...then it is likely that the nominal gain of any given screen sample is about 2.4

Steve

Posted by Bill Enos (Member # 440) on 04-19-2010, 03:59 PM:

So, how would a "3D" coating actually differ from silver/aluminum paint other than outrageous price and ridiculous claims that can't be substantiated?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-20-2010, 06:22 PM:

You're correct Steve... I meant Real-D.

Posted by Kyle Butler (Member # 5601) on 05-05-2010, 06:17 AM:

I personally have a silver screen at home that i had painted with Screen Goo (EXCELLENT stuff by the way) and it looks beautiful.
My screen size in that particular room is only 150" and it costed nearly $700 for the paint.
And i hired a contractor to do the work since it has to be sprayed (i can't operate a paint gun for [bs]

) so that costed another $100.

You would be looking a very substantial bill for a theater screen
(well over $5,000)

Not to mention, it probably doesn't coat very well over a screen that's already been silvered.

Just get an MDI silver screen.
Ours is great [Big Grin]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-05-2010, 11:01 PM:

MDI now has a 6 month backlog!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-06-2010, 05:48 PM:

Sooner or later one should discuss polarization efficiency parameters when talking about 3D screens. And proper measurement techniques.
'Silver paint' is not just like any paint, but a complex formula of paint, glues, metalic particles, structuring, smoothing, application, drying, finishing, etc.
Probably as complex as making a good chocolate.

I'm quite sure there are HUGE differences between all these screen and paint manufacturers, and they will make a big viewing difference with the now popular circular glasses which have comparably low separation efficiency on their own.

The over-all polarization efficiency of RealD and MasterImage is surprisingly low. Hard to believe it does work.

- Carsten

Posted by Thomas Pitt (Member # 4322) on 05-06-2010, 06:16 PM:

Slightly off-topic, but is a new silver screen supposed to smell? When I first walked into screen 11 in the VUE Leeds Light after Real-D had been installed, I noticed a distinct paint-like smell.

Due to the short period the auditorium was closed off, I assume they just replaced the projection system and repainted their original matte screen. I've heard that new screens take a while to stretch into their final position after being installed, during which time there are creases visible - not a good idea if you want to get 3D showing in time for a new release movie!

Also, if you spray-paint a screen silver, won't some of the paint go over the pores (for sound) and block them up?

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 05-06-2010, 06:38 PM:

I find it hard to believe they actually repaint conventional screens for 3D. Someone mentioned RealD certification. Will such a screen ever get RealD certification? If not, there is only MasterImage left. Do they have a screen certification program?

Also, I guess that replacing a white screen with a prefabricated tailored to size silver screen will still go way faster than repainting the old screen. And, taking everything into account, I don't believe repainting is cheaper. Except maybe if you buy your silver paint from surplus D.I.Y supplies...

- Carsten

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 05-07-2010, 09:42 AM:

Plenty of silver screens with some "paint smell" for a while after manufacturing.

During the 80's 3D craze, here in Spain, lots of existing matte screens were painted over silver on site.

Needless to say buying one professionally made is the better option.

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 05-07-2010, 10:18 AM:

I'm guessing that IMAX painted screens at one point because the plans I have for an IMAX show a Screen Painting Rig attached to the top of the screen frame.

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 05-08-2010, 01:50 PM:

I will be installing a new silver screen from Severston this coming week. It took 4 weeks and 3 days to be delivered to me from when the order was placed. Louis will get a close look at it this week, so I am sure he will offer his opinion as well.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-08-2010, 02:00 PM:

Mike did you order it with their new "Micro Perf" by any chance?

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 05-08-2010, 03:01 PM:

I have no idea. The invoice does not say anything.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-09-2010, 06:27 PM:

I would have to rate Severtson the new best screen manufacturer out there. Highly reccomended! They are also almost done expanding the plane to 4X it's original size. They will have a capability of 200 to 300 silver screens a month. Best part is the minimal packing fee in a tube as they are directly next door to a cardboard tube factory. They also have cut a flat rate shipping fee (I think with Estes Trucking) to get your screens to you.

Severtson claims a minimal hot spot and I have not had the opportunity to measure one yet but I will be doing so in the near future.

Mark

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 05-11-2010, 07:49 AM:

Mark you mentioned screens from China -- who distributes them here in the states? Are they substantially less expensive than American counterparts?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-11-2010, 09:17 AM:

Imax painted the screens because they were (are?) too large to ship pre-painted. You can not fold a silver painted screen, it can only be rolled up with protective foam. A screen roll 60 or 70 feet long is too big for normal shipping. It can cross an ocean by ship and be trucked with an oversize load convoy... shipping a folded matte white screen and then painting on site seemed more economical. I'm not sure it was, the rigs were a bugger to move and set up and then there were quite a few failed painting attempts and replacement screens.

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 05-11-2010, 12:26 PM:

This theater was located right next to the Charleston Port so it way have been shipped via sea. I don't think that this location had a rig as it was crossed out on the plans and I didn't see any rigging for it at the top of the screen frame.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-13-2010, 09:50 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Severtson claims a minimal hot spot and I have not had the opportunity to measure one yet but I will be doing so in the near future.

Keep us posted Mark. I just ordered one of their curved screens in Silver but wanted their new micro perf. They are not quit ready yet and do not have any information regarding perf size.
For instance Stewart's micro perf the holes are 0.02 inches in diameter, 30,000 per square foot which accounts for about 10 percent of the total surface area. Im hoping Severtsons is the same or close.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 05-13-2010, 10:18 AM:

I had great luck with my first Severtson. Flawless!

I would note Micro-Perf is a mixed blessing. Remember, more holes, less light. Also, Micro-Perfs seem to be more susceptible to Moire patterns.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-13-2010, 04:53 PM:

quote: Sam D. Chavez
Micro-Perfs seem to be more susceptible to Moire patterns

That dreaded moire [Mad]

I ended up ordering the solid material. Did not want to take the risk.

Related question. Are perforations less noticeable on a matt white/low gain screen verses a Silver screen?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 05-13-2010, 05:12 PM:

It's a function of the hole pattern and good luck AFAIK, and nothing else.

Of course you have a lot more light available with a silver screen so you're likely to see a lot more of everything.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 05-28-2010, 10:36 AM:

Received my screen from Severtson. Silver with about a 40 degree curve. Uniformity is darn good. The room serves duel purpose both film/video.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-29-2010, 07:28 PM:

quote: Dave Macaulay
You can not fold a silver painted screen, it can only be rolled up with protective foam.

Tell that to MDI. We did the 84X56 foot screen at Zion Canyon when I was at my last place of employment. It was pinted AT MDI and came folded a certain way so it could go inside a crate that would fit inside 52 foot semi trailer. I unfortunately did not see exactly how it was folded before the screen people hung it. I should mention the paint smell was almost overwhelming on a screen that size...

Mark

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 05-29-2010, 07:36 PM:

Going from memory, I believe that MDI folds it and has it laying on shelves built into the crate. This was on a 70x30ft screen, matte white

Posted by Catalin Balaceanu (Member # 3712) on 04-11-2011, 09:03 AM:

So, we're about to go 3D (Masterimage). Now, is there anyone here that (successfuly) repainted their screens silver? We're considering repainting our original screen, as the price of a new factory-made silver screen is ridiculously high.
If it can be done, what kind (brand) of paint do you recommend?

thanks

Catalin

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 04-11-2011, 08:31 PM:

quote: Sam D. Chavez
Micro-Perfs seem to be more susceptible to Moire patterns.

Sam, I thought micro-perfs were introduced as a way of reducing the chance of moire patterns?

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-11-2011, 10:59 PM:

Nope, Micro-perf screens have been around a lot longer than D-cinema projectors.

More holes = more audio, esp. in the high freq. end of the spectrum.

Posted by Catalin Balaceanu (Member # 3712) on 04-12-2011, 08:56 AM:

anybody?

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-12-2011, 01:20 PM:

I was involved with Imax screen painting years ago and I just can't recommend it to anyone.
Getting a good looking silver screen painted on site is really difficult. Back then, Imax used a robot system that scanned a spray gun over the screen. This involved erecting a frame with horizontal rails that a vertical truss moved across, the spray head was on a part that moved up and down the vertical truss. We would load the paint pot with enough paint for the whole screen and start the system which would then scan the truss back and forth as the spray head moved down. After a few hours of this we could finally see if the screen looked good... if not, put up a new sheet, make adjustments, and try again. Maybe newer spray nozzles are better but I recall plenty of grief from the ones we used.
An earlier system moved the spray head back and forth horizontally at the bottom of the screen frame as a folded screen sheet was pulled out of a box: this was not very successful and abandoned in favor of the robo-sprayer.
I don't know much about the paints, we used a solvent based paint at first - probably illegal now and requiring humingous exhaust fans to avoid an explosive atmosphere in the auditorium - and a water based paint. Both required pressurized paint pots with power stirrers to keep the aluminum particles suspended evenly.
Then there's the screen surface. I don't know whether a used screen would work, it will be covered with who knows what pollution. The paint might droplet up on application or just drop off in strips after a while.
Imax had to supply at least two screen sheets to each site in case of problems... a clogged spray head partly through the job would be disastrous. The early pull-up system never produced a perfect screen, the robo-painter was much better.
You can really see any variations in the silver paint coating and avoiding stripes or splotches is extremely difficult.
I don't know what Imax do now but if there's a way to ship a huge silver screen without damage I'm sure that's the way to do it.
I saw pictures of one screen factory where they hung the screens and used a robo-sprayer... probably Imax got the idea from them.

Posted by Catalin Balaceanu (Member # 3712) on 04-14-2011, 08:03 AM:

Thanks Dave. Oh well, this sounds overwhelming enough for me to scrap the whole repainting idea.
Any recommendations for decently priced silver screens? ...if these exist?
thanks

Posted by Richard Hamilton (Member # 321) on 04-14-2011, 09:35 AM:

Contact Bobby or Pam at Franklin Designs I've done a lot of work with him and he's a good guy to deal with.

Rick