Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Master Image 3D...anyone using it or seen it?

This is topic Master Image 3D...anyone using it or seen it? in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-24-2010, 06:31 PM:

If so, what are your thoughts?

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 05-24-2010, 08:52 PM:

Have installed several units in oz. Yet to have a single issue. Customers are happy with it. Best compared to RealD 'standard' z-screen in terms of brightness.

Probably a bit more of an upfront cost compared to other 3D systems so it really depends on what works for your business.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-24-2010, 09:11 PM:

But no royalties or ongoing fees?

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 05-24-2010, 09:25 PM:

correct! No licence fee. One off cost. Uses same cheap disposable glasses as Real D

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-24-2010, 10:18 PM:

So the glasses are exactly the same as Real D? Does anything else change at the projector end to make that possible?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-24-2010, 10:22 PM:

I have 4 used ones I'd make you a killer deal on. They have all the updates. If I didn't want to sell these four I'd tell you the real truth!!!

Mark

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 05-24-2010, 10:57 PM:

RealD uses an electrically switched liquid crystal (I assume) polarizer that changes the "angle" of "circular" polarization of the light beam. On the z-screen anyway. I don't know what's going on in the XL but the end effect is the same, alternating polarization synchronized with the projector so that left eye gets one polarization angle that on the glasses the left eye lens passes but the right eye lens blocks.
Master image skips the electrically switching polarizer and mounts two half circles of opposite polarizing material into a disk, then spins the disk with a motor synchronized with the projector.
The polarization principle is the same with realD or materImage and the glasses are interchangeable.
Master Image sells the package without restrictions as I understand it - cash sale, no continuing license fee, no site lock. I believe they want you to buy their glasses but I don't know how they enforce this.
Mark, what's the problem you've had?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-24-2010, 11:39 PM:

To put it mildly they are gunk suckers! Anything in the air in your booth will get sucked onto the wheel and coat the filters. This even happens at theaters that have the popper exhausted outside so I can't blame it on the popper. They work fine.... until they get a nice coating of gunk on the filters in which case the 3-D gradually disappears. It's efficiency is about the same as Real-D but if you are going to put up with a silver screen the Real-D Z screen is no maintainance at all. There are original Real-D Z-Screens in this area that are approaching 4 years old that still work perfectly.

With the Master Image unit you have to clean the filters off some times every day depending on the air quality in your area. You have to have a supply of clean micro fiber rags on hand to do this so you don't scratch the filters. Don't trust the booth mongers to do it right either!

Also... there are alot of mechanical aspects of the unit that leave alot to be desired, the screws holding the filter wheel to it's hub are one. I've also seen wobbly hubs so the unit vibrates. Also, have known of at least two filter wheels flying apart. If you stand back and really look at the unit it could probably be boot legged for under 2 grand. Not much there. Servo motor and hub for filter wheel, finicky sync board and a power supply.

Had they sealed up the filter wheel inside a drum containing say nitrogen and made it impermeable to outside air then they'd actually have an acceptable unit but still way over priced for what it consists of.

Dolby 3-D still represents the best "buyable no strings attached" 3-D system on the market. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to do the math on that.

Mark

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 05-25-2010, 01:58 AM:

Oh Mark, you make me laugh... I have to call Flip Flop on this one too [Razz]

From the post '3D spinning disk'.

quote:
This week I installed the Master Image 3-D system along with a tech from Master Image. All went pretty well except that the DP-100 was a very early unit and it required a new card cage backplane. The Master Image needs the pulse from GPIO-1 to sync and the old backplane wasn't intended to output this pulse... pre 3-D days of 2K stuff! However, and for you people that preach the obsolescence of D-Cinema gear... BARCO graciously supplied the new backplane free of charge. Once the backplane was installed and the BARCO re-assembled (no small task), the Master Image synced right up and worked beautifully.

Build quality of the Master Image is very high and the spinning disk drive motor is direct drive and utilizes a brushless servo drive system of very high quality.

How does it compare to other 3-D systems??? I have to completely take back what I said in my post above... This is NOT EQUAL to other single projector 3-D systems... it is FAR SUPERIOR... Simply put, this is THE BEST single projector 3-D I have seen to date and also the brightest. We acheived 5.7 fl with just a 4kw cinema type lamp (not a short gap) running at about 80%. I know there are downsides to Silver Screens which this system does require but the upside of the super high quality 3-D easily makes for putting up with the silver suurface. We hung a new type Hurley "washable" silver screen at this location in preperation for this install late last year. This screen has been tested by Master Image's technical staff whom themselves are involved with testing every toher 3-D system out there for DCIP.. in short they are way overqualified to do this sort of testing. Their conclusion was very positive and even Coke spills on this screen won't damage it's surface.

So combine the new Hurley Washable Silver Surface with the Master Image 3-D system in front of a full frame triple flash projector and you'd have one killer 3-D system that easily knocks the socks off the rest of em. This one certainly does.

Sooo....it WAS the best 3D system you had seen! 'WAS' being the operative word I guess??

Anyway, no you don't have to clean the disc daily. Maybe once a week unless you have a real pig sty of a booth.

Also they have a new revision model that we just got a couple of weeks ago that is 30% smoother and quieter than the older models. Not that I thought the first version was a problem anyway.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Had they sealed up the filter wheel inside a drum containing say nitrogen and made it impermeable to outside air then they'd actually have an acceptable unit but still way over priced for what it consists of.

LOL

Wow, in that earlier post you are even giving credit to Barco!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-25-2010, 04:54 AM:

Give it a couple of weeks...Mark'll like them again.

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 05-25-2010, 04:57 AM:

Yeah, the build quality is just alright, and the motor gets red hot in use. But we have yet to have a disc shatter and we've cleaned it once in 4 months. Not too bad for a machine you can buy and own. The replacement disc cost could be a hassle.

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 05-25-2010, 11:11 AM:

Have a unit in our lab. I like it allot, the movable feature is nice if used. As far as them getting dirty we just clean the wheel with a microfiber cloth once a month and its just fine. We have had it almost 18mo without a problem.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-25-2010, 06:38 PM:

Brendan,

I've installed close to a dozen units. I'll still say the 3-D is among the best of the polarized systems IF you want the hassles of a silver screen. Unfortunately the Hurley washable screen has not yet fulfilled it's promise on the claims Hurley makes for it. With the lower pricing on Dolby it simply makes far more sense. In tight auditoriumsthere are also no lost seats with Dolby as there are using a silver surface. Do the math on the costs if you can count!!! You'll find out I am right.

Anyone wanting Master Image I can save you 10 grand a unit...

Problematic they've been running in grind locations. Were they all Rosey my customer would be keeping his!!!

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 05-28-2010, 11:47 AM:

I used to clean my film projectors every day but I dont' have a bad opinion of them because of that!
I understand that it could be something to keep in mind when deciding which 3D system to install but I don't think it's a primary reason not to buy it.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-28-2010, 03:51 PM:

Marco,

It is the only 3-D unit that requires regular cleaning. Dolby is inside the projector's filtered air flow and Real-D doesn't spin so it does not pick up dirt and gunk from the air. If you have very clean air in your location it will probably not be a problem though.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 05-28-2010, 05:16 PM:

I've seen Real-Ds with lots O dust and smears...but yes, the Master Image does tend to self-inflict.

Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 05-29-2010, 04:09 AM:

Hi All,

I agree with Mark,

The master image principal seems to be back in the Enermann era of the early 1900's with the front shutter blades.

We can easily obtain 6.5 fl using REALD Z screen, Christie 2000Zx, with a CDXL30 Xenon on 75% power for scope 3d.

cheers,

David.

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 05-29-2010, 05:14 AM:

Yeah but how large is your screen?
5m 10m 15m 20m or 25m?
ratio 1.85 or 2.39?
On small screen it's easy to get much light. Try to do that on a 250m² screen.

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 05-30-2010, 12:17 PM:

We've been running a Master Image unit for eleven months now. We did have to replace the wheel when they went to an upgrade due to some reports of the original wheels coming apart due to cracks around the mounting screws.

True, they have to be cleaned with a micro fiber cloth. Other than that, no problems to date with our unit, although saying that could be the kiss of death.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-30-2010, 05:16 PM:

quote: John T. Hendrickson, Jr
due to some reports of the original wheels coming apart due to cracks around the mounting screws.

Thank You John! Thats another sore point I have with them. You never place the head of a screw directly against plastic like they have it. OF COURSE THE PLASTIC IS GOING TO CRACK! You use a washer to spread out the clamping effect of the screw against the plastic, or more properly a clamping ring and the set screws! Now keep in mind that Master Image has actually bothered to spend the time to come up with a spec for torquing a screw head directly against the plastic instead of saying ... Hey just go to the hardware store and get yourself some flat washers. IMHO, Lockwashers could also be added as a precaution. All in all... pretty lame.

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 05-30-2010, 07:42 PM:

You'll be back... [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-30-2010, 09:13 PM:

Yea, When the price comes down to what they are actually worth... about $3,000 USD.

Mark

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 05-31-2010, 12:12 AM:

OOhhhhhhh! Ouch! Build me a better one then [Razz]

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 05-31-2010, 04:13 AM:

quote:
This is NOT EQUAL to other single projector 3-D systems... it is FAR SUPERIOR... Simply put, this is THE BEST single projector 3-D I have seen to date and also the brightest. We acheived 5.7 fl with just a 4kw cinema type lamp (not a short gap) running at about 80%

Posted by Damien Taylor (Member # 4255) on 05-31-2010, 06:28 AM:

In the purchase price you have to consider that with no license fees, a higher outright cost is justified. In the commercial field, massive price markups are pretty commonplace as everyone knows.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-31-2010, 12:49 PM:

Brendan,
Licenses aside Dolby is now the cheapest to own outright and by quite a bit. The recent and substantial drop in cost of glasses has allowed Master Image to become the the most expensive... Just imagine if Dolby introduces disposable glasses... ahhhh the possibilities!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 05-31-2010, 03:09 PM:

Why put licenses aside when talking cost? It all adds up, doesn't it?

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 05-31-2010, 05:35 PM:

Actually Mark I do agree with you in one respect. Dolby is without a doubt, hand down the best 3D format available. Clarity of 3D images are simply amazing. System is affordable.

However, if you must go a polarized system for whatever reason, MI is an option well worth considering and doesn't deserve such a grilling.

I know it sounds weird considering the way Dolby 3D works, but the colors are so much more vibrant in Dolby 3D too. Avatar looked monotone in Real D. Polarized systems just lose something on me.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 05-31-2010, 06:17 PM:

quote: Brendan Penny
However, if you must go a polarized system for whatever reason, MI is an option well worth considering and doesn't deserve such a grilling.

Brendan,
It seems to me that I said exactly that above if you go back and read. My feelings towards the image quality remain unchanged for polarized systes However after installing 12 units I have also discovered a lot of extreme deficiencies in a 30+K dollar unit that simply should not be there.

Mark

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 06-01-2010, 04:48 AM:

Well o.k I agree that 16k would be a more realistic price point which would probably propel Master Image to majority market share but so long as their main 'polarizing' competition charges .50 per admin......30k = bargain.

Mind you MI probably make 27k profit per sale!

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 06-25-2010, 02:20 AM:

I agree with you all.

Master Image has its small shortcomings (dust, mechanical) and fair performance (a bit better light and ghosting than RealD-classic, but much less bright than RealD's XL).

The only problem with Master Image is the price. It should be a $5,000 piece of hardware (a rotating wheel, for pits sake) and it's hard to get it for under $33,000.

Dolby has become much more affordable in both, the filter kit and specially the glasses. It wasn't too smart when the glasses were $75, then $45, then $28, but at $17 it can at least be considered. If your market supports trusting each customer with a pair of $17+ glasses, then Dolby is the cheapest in the long run, other than Technicolor 3D. Besides being the best ghosting performer, but the worst in the light efficiency department.

But if you must use digital and polarized glasses, then I suggest you do a dual-projection setup instead of Master Image.

Say a bright projector for Master Image costs $50.000 plus $1200 for a bright lamp. And the wheel is say $33.000. Say $84.200 total.

Well, get 2 cheaper (less bright) projectors for say $45.000 x 2 and 2 cheaper lamps for say $500 x 2. A couple of polarizing filters can be whatever you want to spend for them, but no need to be more than another $1500. Total of $92.500.

Sure $92k+ is more expensive than $84k+. But you get two whole projectors and in case one breaks down the show can continue in 2D with the other. Plus you get a bit better light and ghosting performance and additional lamp life. When not doing 3D, the second projector could be moved to another house, etc. And the reselling value of a projector is probably better than a spinning wheel.

At Master Image price point, it just doesn't make economic sense. It should either perform much better or sell for much less. The way it stands now, dual projection is a better choice.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-25-2010, 06:40 AM:

The USA...glasses are provided by the distributer for Master Image and Real-D. As such, Master Image is currently the most profitable, despite its large cost for the unit. With a $3 upcharge, you should have a return on investment of about 9 months for the Master Image part.

Master Image, at about 18% efficient, is enough that one need not use a largish projector for most screens so the dual projector does not really buy one anything in terms of light.

Now the argument for Dolby 3D on dual projector is an easier one. With only a 10% efficiency and on a white (lower gain or matte white) screen, the extra light of a second projector pays off in spades. You get more than a doubling of light on any wattage...so that 6KW system will be brighter running just 3KW.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-26-2010, 10:28 PM:

quote: Julio Roberto
and it's hard to get it for under $33,000.

I can certainly help you there!

Posted by John T. Hendrickson, Jr (Member # 849) on 06-27-2010, 07:20 PM:

As previously stated, we went with Master Image and have had no regrets (YET). As far as Dolby 3D is concerned, I have no doubt that it is a superior system, BUT, from reports we have been getting in our area, it is an operational nightmare in terms of logistics- washing and proper sanitizing of the glasses, & theft of glasses being the big complaints from others we have talked to.

It's labor intensive, and requires supervision. Ok, you say we are cheap- fine. Our owners would rather not deal with the headaches. I can't say that I blame them.

So- pick your poison. Guess you could say that I'm not a fan of 3D to begin with. That's just me.

Posted by Matt Fields (Member # 3211) on 06-27-2010, 07:26 PM:

I have Dolby 3D at my place and love it, but it is not for everybody.

It will only work well (Glasses cleaned properly and theft kept to a minimum) with dedicated management. It also helps when your building layout makes it easy to monitor people.