Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: NEC 1600 C "too dark" complaints

This is topic NEC 1600 C "too dark" complaints in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000591

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-13-2010, 11:42 AM:

We have 2 NEC 1600 C's that have been recently calibrated. However when we play certain tapes back we get complaints that they are too dark and that a lot of the detail is lost in certain scenes. However when we play other tapes of the same formats (HDCAM or DIGIBETA) that have a lot of dark scenes they look great and there is plenty of detail. My first thought is that it is just bad tapes that have not been properly color corrected or processed but it seems to be happening often with a lot of film festival tapes. We recently had a major cable network in to do a show off of the same tape format. The show had qa lot of very dark scened but we had no problem with losing any of the detail and they were extremely pleased with how it looked. I guess I am looking to see if anyone else has ever experienced this and to find out what gives? Is it really just a lot of poorly processed and color corrected tapes? Why would some tapes look to dark and have a loss of detail on dark scenes and others look fine with plenty of detail on dark scenes? Anyone have any ideas?

Posted by Mike Olpin (Member # 1115) on 06-13-2010, 01:25 PM:

Tapes vary all over the place.

Many tapes have a lead in with a slate and color bars. If your scaller has adjustable settings, you can use the bars to set up each tape.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-13-2010, 02:09 PM:

Thats the problem were using an MM2000 as our scaler and everything was preset for each format by the installer. Also my bosses opinion on the subject is that we are a presentation house and not a post production house therefore it is not our responsibility to compensate for poor quality content.

Posted by Adrian Hauser (Member # 4723) on 06-14-2010, 05:38 PM:

ONe thing to check when projecting tape based content is that your projector scaler software is set to scale the luminance content correctly. Tapes by nature should be made within a Legal Video range of 64-960 10 Bit Code Values.
Often we have found that some setups on scaling boxes assume a legal range input in but scale the output to the projector as a Full Range of 0 - 1023 Code value. This by nature will crush the Blacks and loose detail in dark scenes. Make sure you go through all your setups to ensure scaling is transparent all the way through the video path.

Just my thoughts,

Adrian

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-14-2010, 05:48 PM:

That is why NTSC is what it is "Never The Same Colour"

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-14-2010, 06:28 PM:

^ Amen.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 06-14-2010, 06:52 PM:

I second the amen to Gordon's comment. I HATE dealing with video formats in general as THERE IS NO STANDARD!! (Color, Contrast, Luminance).

Sean, your boss is 100% correct. You have gone above and beyond to provide quality, properly calibrated projection equipment. It will make great sources look outstanding and will make crap tapes look as they are, crap.

I have absolutely no sympathy for people who provide garbage source material and expect it to look good on a large-format screen.

As Mike said, if they provide Color Bars and greyscale slate at the start of the tape, I would be happy to adjust the projector to help ensure quality. But if they don't provide them, they suffer with what they get.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-14-2010, 09:58 PM:

No bars and tone... it's anyone's guess!

Posted by Bill Gabel (Member # 1105) on 06-15-2010, 12:40 PM:

quote: Sean McKinnon
we are a presentation house and not a post production house

In the NYC / LA markets you have to be alittle of both. Tapes and content do vary. So you have to go the extra mile.

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 06-15-2010, 05:00 PM:

Sounds like a gamma problem with the tapes in question. If the person doing the color work -- on local productions, the editor usually handles it -- isn't familiar with the difference in gamma between different types of computer systems and broadcast, then you can end up with something that is "too dark", or "too light".

I keep a GammaX dongle around for these situations. It's easy to use, has a single control, and generally does the job. Handles most video signals, but the only connector it has are RGBHV HD-15 D-Subs.

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-15-2010, 10:49 PM:

Just like 70mm prints tones and noise to match the title