Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: UPS for Projector Electronics

This is topic UPS for Projector Electronics in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 06-21-2010, 02:30 PM:

I'm looking to buy a UPS for the Projector Electronics on a Barco. Since they are run off of 220v does anybody have a recommendations for a UPS? What do you think about the Tripp Lite SUINT1000RTXL2UA?

I think it is really not a good idea to use a C13 plug for the UPS hook up. People will assume that it is 120v, I've never seen it used for 220v.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 06-21-2010, 06:06 PM:

quote: Chase Taylor
I think it is really not a good idea to use a C13 plug for the UPS hook up. People will assume that it is 120v, I've never seen it used for 220v.

In non-anglosaxon Europe, we rely on 220v, using C13 plugs... sorry to be so european [Smile]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-21-2010, 06:19 PM:

The latest ones I've been using are the 1500 VA Tripp Lites that Strong supplies. They are 240 volts in and out and you can not plug a 120 volt plug in the back. They use IEC-320-C13 outlets. This will run the projector, server, switch, and a few other low power accessories for about 10 to 15 min with a full charge.

Mark

Posted by Richard Fowler (Member # 893) on 06-21-2010, 06:39 PM:

IEC 60320 C13 plug = 10/13 amperes based on wire size @ 125VAC with white / black / green color code. 10 amperes @ 230-250VAC with brown / blue / green + yellow wires......one of the world's most popular plug sets [Wink]

For some reasons union stage electricians call them "D" plugs based on their shape....

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-21-2010, 07:47 PM:

We've been pleased with these Tripplite supplies for the Barco 230V stuff.

http://www.tripplite.com/en/products/model.cfm?txtSeriesID=745&txtModelID=2568

We sell the smaller 1500VA for 120V application. It is nice though that many systems can deal with either 230 or 120. I think Barco is only projector that requires 208+ voltage for the electronics.

Steve

Posted by Chase Taylor (Member # 778) on 06-22-2010, 05:57 PM:

Thanks for the help

Posted by Tony Ratcliff (Member # 1196) on 06-28-2010, 04:13 PM:

So is TrippLite the brand you all would recommend now-a-days?

I've always used APCs for my computer equipment, but I've seen a lot of early failures of these the past few years.

I'm looking for a 120V UPS for my Sanyo projector I used to run DVDs.
I had an APC one on it. And it just failed on me today in the middle of showing Ice Age 3 for the kiddie show.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-28-2010, 04:42 PM:

We have traditionally used Tripplite products for many years now. In the case of UPS...there are MANY different grades of them. The better ones have a zero transfer time and are ALWAYS supplying the output with true sine wave.

I've had APCs where they didn't do the transfer from line to battery well and it still dropped the DSP device...which caused it to crash.

Steve

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 06-28-2010, 06:10 PM:

I used to recommend APC products but as of late they do seem to be having a lot of reliability issues. I used a Tripp-Lite on my install at UC Irvine.

The APC's I have from over five years ago are good and still working, but the ones I had bought in the last two years or so were the troublemakers.

Tony, how old is the one that failed on you? And what happened?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-29-2010, 09:08 AM:

Holy cows! I agree with you Tony! Late APCs are problematic. One reason I switched to Tripplite...

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-01-2010, 01:58 PM:

Not booth-related, but we had a big storm through here 2 weeks ago and when power came back on, it killed the UPS's not only in my theatre and store, but also killed 5 of them in the hardware store across the street. What's weird is, several computers at the store which were NOT plugged into UPSs were not harmed.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 07-01-2010, 02:52 PM:

I've got in the habit of replacing the batteries in our UPS's every two years or so. The "brick" type UPS units are junk, they only last two years, and every time I've tried to repack one it fails shortly after. I've seen the smaller units destroy studio gear and refuse to use them.

JJ

Posted by Tony Ratcliff (Member # 1196) on 07-02-2010, 08:41 PM:

Here is what happened to me.

Last week a storm came through while we were showing a kids show using the Sanyo showing a DVD.
I had the Sanyo on the APC.
I had the DVD player on an old power conditioner I've had for many years.
A power blink knocked everything out - including the Sanyo. The APC started squealing, but didn't go to battery.
( They say they will signal when the battery is bad, but it doesn't ).

The blink scared me into buying a new power conditioner that I trusted to also plug the Sanyo into.
The next day I bought a Tripp-Lite conditioner (not UPS).
I plugged the APC into the new Tripp-Lite as well as the DVD player.

Then this week, during the kids show, there were no storms, no power blinks. But in the middle of the show the APC starts squealing and shuts off.
Luckily I was right there and paused the DVD, moved the Sanyo directly into the Tripp-Lite and restarted the show.

The APC failed/alarmed/shut down for no apparent reason.

I've come into the office and found APCs my PCs are on alarming out this same way. But this is the first time I was right next to it when it happened.

That is why I am looking for a GOOD power backup solution for my Sanyo and DVD player.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-03-2010, 02:16 PM:

JOsh is 100% correct on the cheapo UPS's. They are not any good for the most part. A power conditioner is a good thing.

Mike,

In your case you have all the digital gear operating through those three step down transformers. They act as isolation transformers because they have a completely independent secondary. They even combine to make up their own neutral. So that system is essentially floating free from the rest of the building but it is also grounded to the same ground. If you ever get damage there it's only going to be because lightning hits your building directly and gets in some other way. It's not comming through the AC.

Mark

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-03-2010, 05:20 PM:

quote: Mike Blakesley
Not booth-related, but we had a big storm through here 2 weeks ago and when power came back on, it killed the UPS's not only in my theatre and store, but also killed 5 of them in the hardware store across the street. What's weird is, several computers at the store which were NOT plugged into UPSs were not harmed.

The UPS' have surge protection circuitry which took the hit and sacrificed themselves, which is probably a factor in saving the other gear.

But be forewarned that the other gear which seems unharmed now probably took enough of a hit that the next surge WILL do them in. Seen it happen many times.

quote: Tony Ratcliff
A power blink knocked everything out - including the Sanyo. The APC started squealing, but didn't go to battery.
( They say they will signal when the battery is bad, but it doesn't ).

But in the middle of the show the APC starts squealing and shuts off.

The APC failed/alarmed/shut down for no apparent reason.

I've come into the office and found APCs my PCs are on alarming out this same way. But this is the first time I was right next to it when it happened.

That is why I am looking for a GOOD power backup solution for my Sanyo and DVD player.

The squealing "for no apparent reason" with the APC means that it took and absorbed that hit (which saved your Sanyo) but it is now damaged and needs to be repaired. That is why it shut down again.

ANY UPS brand that alarms when you don't have an obvious blink or outage means that either it took a surge that compromised it, or there is some other fault with the circuitry.

I have lost faith with APC due to the poor quality of late.

A caution: For video projectors, older cinema processors (pre- CP500/650/750) or any devices with motors or standard power transformers, DO NOT use a UPS unless it has "True sine-wave" output!! Use of a standard UPS (most of which use a "stepped sine-wave output) can damage the device connected, the UPS or both.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-04-2010, 08:20 AM:

Good point Tony!

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 07-05-2010, 11:38 AM:

It should also be noted that the UPS you intent to use needs to be large enough to run your intended loads. A video projector is a fairly large load, I would imagine at least 800 watts. Also note that UPS units are rated in VA, not watts. Chances are if you have a device you are trying to run with an uncorrected switching supply, its power consumption in watts is going to be larger than its VA consumption. In the example above, I would probably want a 1500VA ups to run the DVD player and projector.

JJ

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-05-2010, 11:43 AM:

You would want to typically place the projector electronics(only),server, switch, 3-D system, and any other bare necessities on the UPS. Lamp power supply is still on regular AC. During a power bump or few second outage you would only loose the lamp for the duration of the outage. All my systems are installed this way and the recovery is virtually instantanious. The systems keep on going but you just loose the lamp.. as soon as power is back the lamp re-lights itself(if your prrojector allows that, some don't!). It is also possible to place a large enough UPS on the lamp power supply as well... it's only cost thats an issue there.

Mark

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 07-05-2010, 12:17 PM:

Mark, I was referring to the small consumer unit Tony Ratcliff was using, not a full-blown DLP. I agree 100% that placing a commercial projector's lamp supply on UPS power is WAY overkill and likely no benefits would be had. As fragile as the consumer units are, I can't help but think it may help.

JJ

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-05-2010, 05:20 PM:

VA = Watts, no?

Posted by Julio Roberto (Member # 4976) on 07-05-2010, 05:38 PM:

Seems the talk was of VA(=Volt Ampere) vs Watts

From wikipedia:

quote:
A volt-ampere (VA) is the unit used for the apparent power in an electrical circuit, equal to the product of root-mean-square (RMS) voltage and RMS current.[1] In direct current (DC) circuits, this product is equal to the real power (active power) in watts[2]. Volt-amperes are useful only in the context of alternating current (AC) circuits (sinusoidal voltages and currents of the same frequency).

Apparent power is the vector sum of real and reactive AC power vectors. While both the volt-ampere (abbreviated VA) and the watt have the dimension of energy, they do not have the same meaning. Some devices, including Uninterruptible Power Supplies (UPSs)], have ratings both for maximum VAs and maximum watts. The VA rating is limited by the maximum permissible current, and the watt rating by the power-handling capacity of the device. When a UPS powers equipment which presents a reactive load with a low power factor (e.g., a computer), neither limit may safely be exceeded.

Posted by Robert Minichino (Member # 3495) on 07-05-2010, 06:44 PM:

Power consumption in watts is never higher than apparent power in VA. Power factor is the ratio between apparent power and actual power, and is from 0 (no power delivered) to 1 (VA = W).

UPS are measured in VA and W, and you need to make sure the UPS you buy has sufficient VA and W ratings for the equipment you'll be connecting to it. It's easier to find the W rating of equipment than VA, but if you can find the power factor you can divide the W rating by the power factor to get VA. The power factor will be abbreviated PF and be a number from 0.6 (bad) to
1 (perfect).

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-06-2010, 02:32 AM:

I'm having problems with a large (by our standards) APC unit at the moment. it's a 16 kVA on line type, three phase in and single phase out. I find that APC tend not to be the easiest people to deal with, but I've now managed to get my problem into the hands of a lady at their European, not British, support centre who seems to be better.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-06-2010, 01:48 PM:

Sadly Stephen, that seems to be the deal with APC anymore..unreliable products and crappy support..it all started when they were bought out by Schnieder Electric.

Before that, it was almost unheard of to have any problems with an APC..and if you did, they sent you an advance replacement and return shipping on the bad unit, all at no charge.

Tripp-lite is my new brand now.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 07-06-2010, 06:47 PM:

Any one have experience with this Tripp-Lite Model? I have the opportunity to purchase a used pair of these at a really good price.

Posted by Josh Jones (Member # 447) on 07-07-2010, 02:28 PM:

quote: Robert Minichino
Power consumption in watts is never higher than apparent power in VA. Power factor is the ratio between apparent power and actual power, and is from 0 (no power delivered) to 1 (VA = W).

Note paragraph 2 of the wiki.

quote:
Apparent power is the vector sum of real and reactive AC power vectors. While both the volt-ampere (abbreviated VA) and the watt have the dimension of energy, they do not have the same meaning. Some devices, including Uninterruptible Power Supplies (UPSs)], have ratings both for maximum VAs and maximum watts. The VA rating is limited by the maximum permissible current, and the watt rating by the power-handling capacity of the device. When a UPS powers equipment which presents a reactive load with a low power factor (e.g., a computer), neither limit may safely be exceeded.

The key word here is "apparent power", ie VA. Because of time domain relationships between voltage and current, a device with poor power factor will require more power to do the same amount of work than a comparable device with power factor correction. This is why those silly twister bulbs are only 2X as efficient as a comparable incandecent bulb, rather than the stated 4X. Their power factor sucks.

JJ

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-07-2010, 04:03 PM:

I always thought they should dispense with all that nonsense and just create an "Effeiiency Factor" rating...

Mark

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-07-2010, 05:05 PM:

Yeah right Mark [Roll Eyes]

let them make up some ludicrous standard like the "power ratings" of automotive amplifiers. Remember the "300 watt per channel" in-dash stereos operating from 12vdc with no switch mode power supply?

Power factor is an established, measurable and hard-to-cheat measure of electrical efficiency.

A simple posting of the power factor on the package with the very simple explanation of range from 0-1 with higher being better will do the trick.