Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Digibeta or HDcam?

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Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-30-2010, 01:18 AM:

A venue called and said they are going to need to screen a video next month and wanted to know whether to bring it in on either Digibeta or HDcam. The venue has playback capability for neither and I have no idea what the rental charges for these decks might be. Would the Digibeta be wildly more expensive than an HDcam unit? Any suggestion to which format to lean towards? Price IS an issue at these place.

This will be going into two stacked Barco R2 Performers 3x DLPs (6000lumen; what the image lacks in rez/detail/contrast, you can't say it's not bright). Thanks

Posted by Jonathan Smith (Member # 5609) on 06-30-2010, 01:55 AM:

You said that price will be an issue, so no doubt Digibeta will be far cheaper.

On the other hand, HDCam should provide a HUGE improvement in screen quality. If they're both in the same ballpark, rentalwise, and you can get the client to split the difference (if you can explain the situation), I'd highly recommend going with the latter option.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-30-2010, 05:54 AM:

What is the highest resolution that your video projector supports? What size screen?

Figure on $300-350/day to rent a Digi-Beta deck (usually a J-30; make sure to specify whether you want one with a component output or an SDI output, depending on what your scaler/projector takes) and $500-500/day for a JH-3 (which has component, SD-SDI, and HD-SDI outputs on all units).

If you can show 720p or better and the screen is large-ish, I would recommend HDCAM, especially if the tape is native 23.976 PsF.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 06-30-2010, 09:16 AM:

I prefer HD-CAM as you can get a high def signal form it whereas with a digi beta you can only get standard def. Scott's advice is good if your projector/scaler is capable of showing the higher resolution signal I would go for it. If not then digibeta is cheaper.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 06-30-2010, 01:37 PM:

Thanks guys. Naturally I want the best quality as we are talking about a large screen -- 23ft height. The Barcos are capable of 1400x1050 SXGA (3 chip DLP) and have both 5 wire component as well as SDI/HDSDI and DVI inputs. In the end they will want to go with cheap. But the idea of spliting the difference in rental with the film-maker for HDCAM is a good idea.

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-01-2010, 08:39 PM:

Find out what the source material was shot in. If it was shot in standard definition, HDCAM is [mostly] pointless.

--jhawk

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 07-07-2010, 11:47 AM:

That's a really good point John. Sometimes people call and want to know what the "Best" format to bring their content on is and too often we do not consider if the original is SD or HD.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-07-2010, 12:18 PM:

HDCAM has some (marginal) advantages from an exhibition point of view, even if the material originated on SD:

- easier to include in a program of other HDCAM material (mainly an issue with shorts programs)
- no aspect ratio confusion with 4x3, letterbox, and anamorphic; HD is 16x9 and narrower ratios are pillarboxed inside it (again, this is mostly an issue for shorts programs)

Of course, these don't really relate to image quality per se, and the reverse would apply to a program of 4x3 SD material.

I am both amazed and annoyed at how much video exhibition is still SD, even for HD-originated material. There is not one theatrical venue in the Boston area with a permanently installed HDCAM deck (several have Digi-Beta, and a couple have Blu-Ray). I hope that the situation is better in NYC and LA, at least.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-07-2010, 02:29 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
I am both amazed and annoyed at how much video exhibition is still SD, even for HD-originated material. There is not one theatrical venue in the Boston area with a permanently installed HDCAM deck (several have Digi-Beta, and a couple have Blu-Ray). I hope that the situation is better in NYC and LA, at least.

I can point out two venues here in L.A. area that have both BluRay and HDCAM decks in permanent install...both of my screening rooms at UC Irvine. [Smile]

I spec'd the decks for my new room I put in and donated the decks (as well as a CP-650 upgrade and other gear) to my original room there that I have been running for the last 12+ years.

Here's a link to the decks I installed:

http://www.markertek.com/Video-Equipment/HDV-Decks-VTR%27s/Sony-Electronics-Inc/HVR-M15AU.xhtml

They play mini DV as well as HDcam tapes. Cost only $2,300.00, would pay for itself in 4-6 rentals.

One of the only Sony products I actually like.

Posted by Jonathan Smith (Member # 5609) on 07-07-2010, 05:37 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
I am both amazed and annoyed at how much video exhibition is still SD, even for HD-originated material. There is not one theatrical venue in the Boston area with a permanently installed HDCAM deck (several have Digi-Beta, and a couple have Blu-Ray). I hope that the situation is better in NYC and LA, at least.

Yeah, look at those stupid preview projectors. What are they, 1.2K? Let's just say when a certain chain was showing "Wizard of Oz" in "HD" with one of those, they were guilty of blatant false advertising.

35mm slides might be a hassle, but they can hold 4K worth of data (not that they have the film-recorders set that high, but still).

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-07-2010, 11:51 PM:

Tony's deck looks like HDV, not HDCAM. I've never had anyone ask for HDV as a screening format, but the decks will play DVCAM as well, so it's still a useful thing to have.

For HDCAM, the usual playback deck is the Sony JH-3 or HDW-D1800. You may need the pulldown card for the -1800 if your monitor/projector will not display 23.98PsF natively. If properly equipped, you can have it do pulldown only on the composite output (for a video monitor) and send the native 23.98 signal out the HD-SDI output (for the projector). The JH-3 will do pulldown internally without extra options, but it can't be applied only to the composite output.

The sucky part about the whole video thing is that the older SD formats won't go away, and a reasonably well equipped venue will need to be able to play back Beta SP, Digi-Beta, DVCAM, DVD, Blu-Ray, and HDCAM for years into the future. This is obviously not cheap and is in addition to 35mm and 16mm film. If you really want to be complete, add 3/4" and VHS. At least the last two aren't expensive.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-08-2010, 06:38 AM:

For a theatre on the "budget"...a J-30 and a JH3 covers most things from HDCam on down except DVCam. The JH3 being the expensive player. The M2000 being my preferred VTR for HDCAM on down and, I think, the 2600 being the player-only version.

I too still see HDCam, Dbeta a lot with BetaSP certainly on the decline. DVCams are still in popular use.

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 07-08-2010, 12:40 PM:

We can show HDCAM in both our houses with 2 permanent J-H3 Decks installed as well as DVCPro HD (Which is pretty much useless as I have heard of it being used only once in almost 2 years) for SD we have 2 J-30 SDI digi-beta decks and a 2 DSR-1800 DVCAM decks as well as DVD and Bluray (one each that we can swap around) and we can show files off a macbook pro with a DVI to HDSDI extender (our system is all SDI and HDSDI.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-08-2010, 12:51 PM:

quote: Scott Norwood
Tony's deck looks like HDV, not HDCAM. I've never had anyone ask for HDV as a screening format, but the decks will play DVCAM as well, so it's still a useful thing to have.

Scott, I will double-check when I get to UCI today, but the decks I have will playback HDCAM tapes (but not record them). It was one of the reasons I bought those decks.

That and we run a lot of student films on Mini DV.

If I am wrong I will post an update.

Posted by David E. Nedrow (Member # 4981) on 07-08-2010, 01:27 PM:

Heh, good thing Steve put budget in quotes. Isn't the combined price of the two units north of $30K?

Posted by John Hawkinson (Member # 1135) on 07-09-2010, 06:42 AM:

It's hard to fathom, Tony. HDCAM decks are expeeeeeeeeeeeeeensive, well into five figures. And the tapes are large (ok, there are two sizes), physically compatible with original BetaMax tapes. So nothing like DVCAM.

Scott: nobody has them permanently because it's so cost-effective to day-rent them! And right now, it's not like HDCAM (or HDCAM SR) is really a go-to format.

--jhawk

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-09-2010, 08:43 AM:

Really? My experience has been that no one wants to pay to rent anything, and that most venues would request a Digi-Beta copy rather than rent an HD deck.

I can sort of understand this, because a $500 rental would require selling an extra 50 tickets at $10/ticket in order to just break even on the rental cost, and this just won't happen in most cases.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-09-2010, 09:21 AM:

Yes...the JH3 is over $20K and the J30 is in the mid teens, as I recall.

But that IS "budget" for broadcast. A proper deck like the M2000, with the various modules you would want is probably still north of $60K. The 2100, playback only version of the 2000 is going to be knocking around $50K.

So yeah...the J series is for "budget" folks. Being in the broadcast industry isn't cheap. In fact, "Cinema" is about as cheap an industry as there is. If you think DCinema projectors are expensive...check out what their counterparts are in the A/V industry (and look at the 3-chip DLPs, not the single-chip amateur stuff. Likewise...see what a Sony T420 goes for compared to the R320 for DCinema.

Steve

Posted by Sean McKinnon (Member # 612) on 07-09-2010, 11:16 AM:

As I said above we have the "budget" HDCAM decks in both our houses. At least in NYC HDCAM does seem to be the "go to" format. Practically everything we get from a past house is on HDCAM and I would guess 80-90% of all our video screenings are from HDCAM next would be directly from a computer, then Digitbeta, then DVD, Then Blu-Ray, Then DVCAM, then DVCPRO HD.

As far as renting we used to only have one HDCAM and one DIGIBETA and often we had to bring in another deck for each format for film festivals or when we had both houses booked. It was a huge waste of money that came out of our pockets. Buying the decks outright made sense for us. Now the only time we have to bring in a deck is if we need HDCAM SR which is pretty rare.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-09-2010, 01:41 PM:

Scott/Jhawk:

I stand corrected. The decks accomodate DVCAM (which is the full-size version of DV and mini DV tapes) NOT HDCAM.

They are HDV (?) capable, which as near as I have been able to find out, is the HD version of standard DVCAM tapes.

This is precisely why I fucking HATE dealing with video, there are so many incompatible formats, the image sizes are never standardized, and the video values and audio levels are all over the map.

Major pain in the ass. [sex]

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 07-09-2010, 07:00 PM:

Digi Beta, and HDcam are standardized. It is DV (I call it Damaged Video) that is the most f**ked up format ever invented. There are SEVEN different versions of DV. Most DV decks will play two of those versions, at the most. DV is overly compressed, and most of the versions are 4:1:1 NOT 4:2:2; in other words, the croma (color information) is bandwidth limited. DV sucks!