Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: How many Chains are now all digital?

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Posted by John Rizzo (Member # 1289) on 06-30-2010, 09:17 AM:

Hi Guys
I met with a projectionist friend of mine who moved to Seattle a little over a year ago, he told me that now all the Regal,Cinemark and AMC chains are totally digital and scrapped all the film projectors. Is this true?

Posted by Carey Barber (Member # 1586) on 06-30-2010, 09:56 AM:

No, it is not true. Not even close.

The AMC 24 closest to me has 21 film projectors, 1 Christie DLP, 1 Sony DLP, and one "Imax" digital. Similar situation for the AMC 18 that is about 45 minutes away. They are still almost entirely 35mm film.

A Regal cinema about 5 minutes from my theater is almost entirely 35mm. I can only offer those anecdotes, rather than any statistics, but clearly these 2 chains have not gone all digital.

Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 06-30-2010, 09:58 AM:

Carmike has gone %100 digital using Christie projectors. They did keep some 35mm equipment at their locations in case there ever was a need to run a 35mm print

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 06-30-2010, 10:02 AM:

Prior to their recent buying spree I believe Rave was all digital (certainly here in Montgomery). Don't know what the situation is with their recent acquisitions.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-30-2010, 11:42 AM:

While I haven't stepped in that booth since I left AMC, I am quite certain that the 30 screen in town here hasn't gone all digital yet. Though I know they added some Sony projectors (don't know how many) and previously had 2 Christie 2K's with 28 film.

And I doubt that the other 24-plex of their's here has gone entirely digital.

Posted by Mitchell Dvoskin (Member # 751) on 06-30-2010, 11:44 AM:

AMC Rockaway Mall in NJ is mostly 35mm.

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 06-30-2010, 01:46 PM:

quote: Martin McCaffery
Rave was all digital (certainly here in Montgomery). Don't know what the situation is with their recent acquisitions.

I saw a press release a while ago that Rave has a deal with Cinedigm phase 2 to bring all their aquired locations to 100% digital.

Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 06-30-2010, 03:01 PM:

As far as I know both Regal and AMC are well on their way to going all digital. It's just a matter of time.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-30-2010, 03:08 PM:

...and that's going to be a very long time the way the money is right now ...

For, when you think of it, if a 14 to 20 plus screen complex suddenly heads to digital, the huge expence that the theatre is gonna have to face is bulbs.

An example and a rough on at that on a simple guesstimate here: At $1400 a pop for 4200w bulbs, which have to be changed every three months for warranty reasons, 14 time 3 times 4 per year is almost a $30k expense that that location will be facing.

Lotsa numbers to face on the conversions ...

-Mote

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 06-30-2010, 03:09 PM:

Goodrich has plans to be all digital by the end of 2010. Hollywood near me recently went all digital on 14 of its screens. I believe the DCIP calls for close to 100% conversion within 2 years ???

Posted by Jonathan Althaus (Member # 5042) on 06-30-2010, 03:34 PM:

Our 5 largest screens would run bulbs at 1500 warranty hours, the other 10 will have 3000 hours. We were told within 2 years we will be fully converted.

Our current 35's run 1800 warranty hours, so we'll save money on bulbs, theoretically.

Posted by Bernie Anderson Jr (Member # 410) on 06-30-2010, 04:44 PM:

By the end of July, AMC New Brunswick will be 100% Sony 4K with the exception of the IMAX twin Chrisite DLPs

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-30-2010, 07:17 PM:

quote:
At $1400 a pop for 4200w bulbs,

You would think bulbs would be coming down in price, since they're going to have to be changed more often.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 06-30-2010, 07:58 PM:

I don't understand why d-cinema projectors need such high Wattage bulbs. Film projectors have shutters so you need more light.
Our 35mm projector needs almost quadruple the Wattage to equal the brightness of the e-cinema projector.
Is the extra Wattage purely for 3D?

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 06-30-2010, 08:25 PM:

Most of our screens are using the same or slightly higher wattage bulbs (like from 1.6k to 2k) in the digital projectors than they used in the 35's. Bulb life is about the same too (Christie CP-2000 projectors, 35's were Christie/Strong lamphouses).

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 06-30-2010, 08:45 PM:

I think the light integrating rod eats up some light and then the automatic light adjusting whosey whats it forces the bulbs to go brighter until it wears it out or something like that.
What i hear so far indicates a short bulb life on big screens adding up to a lot of money spent which could have paid my wage! [Frown]

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-30-2010, 09:35 PM:

Thank you very much!! Our bulb sales are up 300% thanks to D-Cinema! Louis

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 06-30-2010, 10:45 PM:

So the lesson is - instead of paying a quality projectionist $60K a year, chains would rather install $150K DLP projectors in every theater (which will be obsolete much sooner than their film counterparts), and then spend much more money buying bulbs for the things too.

Nice. [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-01-2010, 12:36 AM:

Louis, are your bulb sales up due to new installs or are you seeing a pattern of faster replacement?

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 07-01-2010, 03:15 AM:

For a honest comparison, you should look at lm/W: how much output lumens per input watt. This tells you how efficient the setup is.

I know digital projection is around 4-7lm/W. Does anyone have numbers on 35mm?

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 07-01-2010, 03:30 AM:

My lamp costs for digital are about 15%-20% higher than 35mm, but if I kept the same lamp sizes that the installers put on each screen we would be flat (they installed the same lamps that our 35mms used) - I found a few screens were borderline and went up a lamp size to more easily maintain 14FL over the lamp's life.

I suspect that some of my 35mms were borderline and the original designer opted for the smaller size rather than the higher.

I think since digital has an expriation notification we are seeing more lamps changed earlier than normal - i.e. 35mms lamps required someone to discern that the lamp needed to be changed; digital comes up with a flashing "lamp life expired" message which spurs the staff to immediately change the lamp because, after all, the computer says the lamp has is now bad, right?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-01-2010, 04:28 AM:

quote: Ron Curran
I don't understand why d-cinema projectors need such high Wattage bulbs

Light has to pass through, at least, 5 prisms before shooting out through the lens, where film, the light path is straight and direct from reflected source, through the lens and out to screen.

You bend light, you lose major luminance - with those ORC/CFS consoles with the vertical bulb in the bottom of the console shooting the light upward and the light then has to hit that angled mirror to be bent 90 degrees to shoot through the projector was the biggest disaster ever created.

quote: Dustin Mitchell
bulb sales up due to new installs or are you seeing a pattern of faster replacement

I would say that it's more of a huge bulk sale type of thing .. supply and demand.

quote: Mark J. Marshall
instead of paying a quality projectionist $60K a year, chains would rather install $150K DLP projectors in every theater (which will be obsolete much sooner than their film counterparts), and then spend much more money buying bulbs for the things too. Nice

Isn't it funny when logic and common sense seems to dissapate when money is being spent for something else - to make life easier?

quote: David Zylstra
message which spurs the staff to immediately change the lamp because, after all, the computer says the lamp has is now bad, right?

No, the bulb is not bad, BUT, the console is warning you about the bulb is getting close to warranty hours and needs to be pulled so the whole unit can be protected by the bulb manufacturer if the bulb blows and destroys $20k worth of of parts inside that the owner of the console would have to fork up to repair if that bulb was left in past warranty hours and desides to go. If an operator decides to leave a bulb in past warranty hours and that bulb lets go, does that much damage and almost bankrupts that theatre for repairs, you think that operator will have a job afterwards?

Posted by Dustin Mitchell (Member # 372) on 07-01-2010, 06:21 AM:

While I'm sure the glass reflectors in a CP-2000 aren't cheap we've had many bulb explosions (all under warranty, all from a certain manufacturer) and I'm pretty sure the repairs weren't 20k a piece.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-01-2010, 07:18 AM:

Lamp sizes on digital versus film are pretty close to each other now, in most projectors. That is, if you were hitting 16fL on a 2KW lamp for film...you'll hit your 14fL for digital...give or take. Some projectors are definitely more efficient than others.

3D is a bigger factor though...you need A LOT more light for 3D. Most of the systems are less than 20% efficient and will need a much larger lamp to overcome that.

When you get into specialty high-brightness lamps...they don't tend to last as long and again, 3D tends to have one running lamps at their upper limits...which makes them last even less. So you have to change lamps more often, typically.

Then there is the cost of the lamps themselves. Again, as you move into the special high-brightness lamps...you are buying inherently more expensive lamps so when you combine shorter life and more expensive...you get increased lamps sales with increased lamp costs.

The other odd thing I'm finding is that, even with the same lamp supplier, the cost of the lamps for the various brands of projectors, cost different (wildly) even in the same wattage. While in "film" lamps, within a manufacturer, a 4KW lamp will cost essentially the same, regardless if it is an HTP, HS or whatever fitting...that is NOT the case for DCinema where the same manufacturer will have three different prices for a 4KW lamp depending if it goes to a Barco, NEC, or Sony.

There is the risk of explosion. In a film system...if a lamp explodes and you are using the typical metal reflector...while it may get dinged up, put out less light and more heat...the show will go on. Unless the anode shoots into the shutter or something odd like that...with a film system, you are going to be out the cost of the lamp and possibly the reflector (presuming an out of warranty situation).

That is not the case with DCinema...the damage of a lamp explosion will amost certainly destroy the reflector, possibly the heat filter, possibly a folding mirror and even possibly an integrating rod. As some have found, if you have a 3D wheel in there...that may too be killed. Aside from the lamp...your potential damage typically STARTS at over $5K and can indeed get over $15K on just one explosion. As such, most will opt to change lamps within warranty to ensure that the lamp's warranty covers such damage.

Steve

Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 07-01-2010, 08:29 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
No, the bulb is not bad, BUT, the console is warning you about the bulb is getting close to warranty hours and needs to be pulled so the whole unit can be protected by the bulb manufacturer

My statement was said jokingly as some of our less experienced staff tends to freak out way too much when they see the expiry message which is set for warranty +25% - some just don't get it that if the lamp runs fine and looks good they can schedule a lamp change in the next week or so rather than stop the show immediately and change it . . . . . also, many installs might have the wrong expiration times entered (i.e. ours initially were all set for 2,000), so if the installer put the actual warranty hours in (full or pro rated?) then some significant lamp life is being wasted IMHO.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-01-2010, 08:49 AM:

quote: David Zylstra
I think since digital has an expriation notification we are seeing more lamps changed earlier than normal - i.e. 35mms lamps required someone to discern that the lamp needed to be changed; digital comes up with a flashing "lamp life expired" message which spurs the staff to immediately change the lamp because, after all, the computer says the lamp has is now bad, right?

Hopefully you've trained your staff to think change it because if it's 1 minute out of warranty it WILL explode and take the reflector, heat filter and Dolby wheel [Eek!]

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 07-01-2010, 08:56 AM:

Did you guys see many cases where damage went beyond the lamp house? I thought the UV-filter added a level of protection that is sufficient in the majority of explosions?

Posted by Michael Riley (Member # 5693) on 07-01-2010, 10:16 AM:

Regal is going to be all digital next year. All of the NYC area theaters are all digital, so I assume they're trying to convert the union run places first. I'm not sure why Rave is going to bother converting the National Amusements places they took over, as a lot of them are real dumps that should have been closed years ago, let alone converted to all digital. The last time I was at their locations in Southington and Berlin, CT I could see the tumbleweeds blowing across the lobby on a Friday night.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-01-2010, 10:53 AM:

quote: Tom Bert
Did you guys see many cases where damage went beyond the lamp house?

YES! This IS the single biggest risk with the "in line" type of design. Christie and CInemecanicca are built this way. A more efficient design certainly but with some definate risk involved. The heat filter is just not thick enough to stop the shards from a 4 or 6 kw lamp from going through. The heat filter is ~1/8" thick or less. I've seen explosions ruin Dolby 3-D wheels (8 to 12K to replace depending on model) and the input end of the integrator whose price depends on model but is way less expensive then the Dolby wheel! Projectors like BARCO and NEC whose lamphouses are right angled from the integrator input offer at least some protection from shards damaging the above mentioned components. Replacing your lamp before the warranty expires is the single most important piece of insurance you have against lamp explosions.

Mark

Posted by Martin Brooks (Member # 1269) on 07-03-2010, 07:41 PM:

quote: Michael Riley
Regal is going to be all digital next year. All of the NYC area theaters are all digital, so I assume they're trying to convert the union run places first.

I don't think that's accurate. I'm constantly surprised how often a print I'm seeing in Manhattan is film. They might be all digital in the sense that every booth will have digital, but it seems to me that many of the 35mm projectors will also stay in place.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-04-2010, 04:03 AM:

Mark, I have the answer; what you need is a carbon arc conversion kit for digital projectors. [Smile]

Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 07-05-2010, 04:31 AM:

Regal has plans to go 100% digital, and all the new builds have at least one digital projector in them (if not all digital). I don't remember the interview I was reading but they were talking about the whole deal with the new Sonys, etc.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 07-05-2010, 07:11 AM:

Stephen - then you'd need a change-over modification too since carbons only last an hour.

Judging from how much sense the rest of this makes, that seems like something that would be widely regarded as the perfect solution.

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-05-2010, 08:15 AM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Stephen - then you'd need a change-over modification too since carbons only last an hour.

Changeover shouldn't be difficult; rather expensive, since you'd need two digital projectors.

The first model of the Eidophor projector actually did use a carbon arc lamp; there's a picture of it here on Hugh's site:

http://www.cinephoto.co.uk/eidophor_1.htm

Whether they did do changeovers with them, or only used them for as long as they could get out of one pair of carbons at a time, I don't know.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 07-05-2010, 09:23 AM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Stephen - then you'd need a change-over modification too since carbons only last an hour.

I dunno, what's cheaper Digital technology or Carbon Arc technology? I'm sure using 1/3 of the money spent on developing 2k digital, someone could develop the 3 hour carbon arc, that wasn't, you know, about 6ft long [Wink]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-05-2010, 11:33 AM:

Actually Lee Artoe had a pair of Jet Arcs in the basement of his warehouse on Belmont Ave. for many years... these had automatic carbon feeders on them. They could automatically install a new set of carbons when the present pair was spent.

Actually the problem with the inlne system is poor design on Christie's part of the heat filter in these projectors. A little bit thicker and it certainly could survive the blast from an exploding 6kw lamp. It would also be worth the 1/2 foot lambert sacrifice in light for the added safety. The other aspect of digital I am at a loss on is where are the metal reflector manufacturers during all this. Optiform, etc... could easily design a compound metal reflector system for these projectors. They may be damaged but they'd survive the blast and a new lamp would get you back on screen. They'd also be less expensive then the present glass jobs.

Mark

Posted by Stephen Furley (Member # 1277) on 07-06-2010, 02:26 AM:

quote: Martin McCaffery
I dunno, what's cheaper Digital technology or Carbon Arc technology? I'm sure using 1/3 of the money spent on developing 2k digital, someone could develop the 3 hour carbon arc, that wasn't, you know, about 6ft long

There was a carbon arc which could burn for about 100 hours, the Jandus lamp. It was used for streetlighting, and streetlighting arcs were quite different to projection ones. It worked by enclosing the carbons in an inner glass vessel within the outer globe. There was a valve which allowed air to escape as the lamp warmed up, but prevented air from entering.

Maybe some sort of long run carbon arc would have been developed for projection if SHP mercury, metal halide and xenon lamps hadn't become available.

Posted by Justin Fencsak (Member # 5800) on 07-10-2010, 05:39 AM:

Rockaway in AMC will be all digital by september. 3 screens are RealD 3D/Sony 4k and there's one IMAX digital screen. 12 screens are 35mm.

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 07-10-2010, 11:16 PM:

Anyone believe that AMC is paying Real3d $.50 per ticket for 10 years? Or even 5?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-11-2010, 03:30 AM:

..prob as long as AMC keeps the contract with "Real Dumb" active..they'll do it til the cows fly home..

But, you gotta look at it on their prospective: it's a huge tax writeoff for them and all of the other venues using "Real Dumb" since they can write it off as business expense ...

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-11-2010, 07:20 AM:

Gotta make a profit first before you have taxes. Louis

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 07-14-2010, 07:13 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Actually the problem with the inlne system is poor design on Christie's part of the heat filter in these projectors. A little bit thicker and it certainly could survive the blast from an exploding 6kw lamp. It would also be worth the 1/2 foot lambert sacrifice in light for the added safety.

I wonder if UltraFlat can come up with replacement heat filters for these projectors. I've used their heat filters in 35mm consoles with excellent results.

[/quote]The other aspect of digital I am at a loss on is where are the metal reflector manufacturers during all this. Optiform, etc... could easily design a compound metal reflector system for these projectors. They may be damaged but they'd survive the blast and a new lamp would get you back on screen. They'd also be less expensive then the present glass jobs. [/quote]

I'm sure they could, but I'm sure you know these reflectors would reflect a lot more heat forward. Even though there are IR filters in front of the lamps, I imagine that reducing the amount of heat reflected forward is a lot more critical in these digital projectors.

Posted by Lyle Romer (Member # 1266) on 07-14-2010, 08:27 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
But, you gotta look at it on their prospective: it's a huge tax writeoff for them and all of the other venues using "Real Dumb" since they can write it off as business expense ...

This statement reminds me a little of the "just write it off" (I don't know the title of the episode) of Seinfeld. Tax writeoffs aren't some magical way to avoid paying taxes. In order to "write something off" you have to have invested and lost the money or paid it as an expense.

If AMC pays Real-D 50 cents a ticket it is a business expense but so what. That money is actually going to Real-D so there is no tax on it from AMC's perspective. If let's say AMC charges a $3.00 upcharge and pays $0.50 to Real-D, AMC will pay income tax (assuming it ends up as profit but let's keep it simple) on $2.50. The $0.50 that they "wrote off" isn't advantageous to AMC at all. In fact, it would be much more advantageous not to pay that $0.50 to Real-D and keep it as profit and pay tax on it. Then they'd end up with 32.5 cents of it after taxes instead of zero.

As pointed out satirically in that Seinfeld episode there is a huge misconception about tax writeoffs. Even if Bill Gates donates $10,000,000 as a tax writeoff to a charity, he will still end up with less money in his pocket at the end of the day than if he hadn't made the donation. The only "advantage" is that had he spent $10,000,000 on a vacation home he would have had to pay income tax on it but by donating to charity he doesn't have to. At roughly 36% top tax bracket if he hadn't donated he'd be left with $6.4 Million in the bank out of the $10 Million but by donating it he now has none of it but donated to a charity.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-13-2010, 09:45 PM:

I know that AMC converted all the screens at NYC's Empire 25 to all digital.

here in the DC area, Rave Motion Pictures has converted all it's screens at it's Fairfax Corner complex into all digital screens with Barco (upgradeable to 4K) projectors - the Centreville multiplex is also in transit to all digital.

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 10-15-2010, 08:56 PM:

actually as of today, it looks like it all but one screen at Rave's Centreville's is not digital, 11 out of 12 - strange, I'm sure as of next week all the screens will have been converted.

Posted by Aaron Sisemore (Member # 145) on 10-17-2010, 01:30 PM:

All Cinema West locations with 5 or more screens are 100% digital, some have 35mm capability for the rare show not available on a drive.

Posted by Joseph Pandolfi (Member # 223) on 10-18-2010, 10:48 PM:

Just an update on that Rave has converted Buckland Hills (Manchester) and North Haven and Milford theatres all in Connecticut to all digital. Southington and Berlin will follow. Also Milford will be converting one of their houses to digital IMAX in time for HP7.