Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Video Projector recommendations

This is topic Video Projector recommendations in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by J-sun Bailey (Member # 2811) on 07-19-2010, 10:01 AM:

We're looking at replacing our video projectors with HD projectors and also go up in lumens. I've narrowed it down based on the size of the three screens we need to project on:

Cinema 3

Cinema 2

Cinema 1

Any thoughts/recommendations would be great.

Thanks in Advance.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-19-2010, 06:26 PM:

What will these machines be used for and what is your approx. budget?

- Carsten

Posted by Mike Frese (Member # 4361) on 07-19-2010, 07:30 PM:

I am as well looking for a new video projector. I have a 70' throw to work with. Will use to show pre-show stuff, video gaming, free or discounted kid movies using Blu-Ray as the source. Budget ??

Posted by Kirk Futrell (Member # 5006) on 07-21-2010, 03:10 PM:

I don't know what you're budget is, but if you can find some panasonic 7000 series projectors new or used they will look great for the price. Which is not cheap by the way, I think they are around 30k+ for new ones. They are 7000 lumens and 4000:1 contrast ratio.
I will say for such short throws and I assume rather small screens, that you can definitely get away with using projectors that are 720p. You don't have to go with 1080 for HD on a budget. I personally like to look for a high contrast ratio with a minimum of about 5000 lumens in a small light controlled theater. The contrast ratio, makes a big difference and video projectors have been able to far exceed the theoretical contrast ratio of film (which I haven't been able to get a solid answer on what the contrast ratio is for film, I'm sure it starts with "Well, it depends..." though, and I haven't searched for it on this site yet...), by having iris that can physically block the light from reaching the screen in black areas (I think that's how it works...) Also I don't know where the current debate on LCD vs. DLP is ( I think 3 chip DLP won) but with LCD you can get a "screen door" effect, because you can see the pixels. I have seen a very good single chip DLP in action (the panasonic 5500) and you can still see the "rainbow effect" when you move your eyes across the screen very quickly from one point to another. This is very annoying to some people, including me.

I've heard fairly good review of the Sanyo PLC-XM150/150L listed on this press release linked below. They are a bit too low contrast and I prefer native 16:9 to native 4:3. I'm sure they would pass for your smaller theatres though.

P.S. The Contrast Ratio of film has been discussed in the Film Handler's forum under "Topic: ANSI and On/Off contrast." Can't figure out how to link to a topic in the other forum, though.

Hope this helps.
Sanyo press release

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-21-2010, 07:07 PM:

No matter what you buy I highly recommend that you check into the lamp replacement cost for what ever projector(s) you decide to purchase. Lamp replacement can literally kill any pre-show profits as well as make your booth budget spiral out of control. Its's easy to spend way more on video projector lamps than on normal xenon lamps!

Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-22-2010, 07:46 AM:

Mark makes a good point. I also like the image quality of the Panasonic 7000, but the bulbs aren't good for more than about 500 hours before they start to flicker. And, yes, they do cost much more per hour than xenons. There is a "long life" bulb option, but they are much dimmer.

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 07-22-2010, 10:28 AM:

Well I would narrow the selections to these two.

Sanyo PLV Z4000

or if you really want to go wild

Sanyo PDG-DHT100L

Although the above is a single chip DLP which is not the best for BlueRay. When you see a three chip DLP you then will be amazed as the quality is actually pretty close to D-Cinema.

Demetris

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 07-22-2010, 11:20 AM:

I second Demetris' choices, we use Sanyos at UC Irvine and get great reviews on image quality, and the lamp life is very good and costs are reasonable.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 07-23-2010, 02:57 AM:

The Mitsubishi is an excellent machine and lamp life is generous. Brightness, contrast and colour accurace are better than the specs would suggest.
However, it is a single chip dlp projector, so the rainbow effect can bother those who can see it. Not pronounced in this model. I can detect it but not one other person has been able to in the six months since we have been using it.

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 07-23-2010, 08:39 AM:

When you talk of a projector at 30.000 dollars you are close to a D Cinema projector.

Posted by Phil Blake (Member # 2012) on 07-24-2010, 03:48 AM:

I agree with Mark on this , our replacment lamp budget is very high the more digital we go.

The panasonic DLPs are good but lamps are so costly , just replaced lamp in NEC1600 $1000 more than similar for Film lamphouse.

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 07-24-2010, 04:12 AM:

Can you not use a "film" lamp on the NEC?

BTW we have been using a Panasonis 5000 series projector for our pre-shows.
With lights dimmed to half they put out a reasonable pic, depending on what the quality you put in.
In fact I was playing around with HD trailers and happened to show a trailer to the director of a film. He commented that there was no dirt whatsoever on screen.
lamps go for about NZ1000.00 for 1300 hrs

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-24-2010, 06:27 AM:

You can use "film" lamps in the NC1600 for 3KW and 2KW...used the supplied adapter and an "S" series lamp (e.g. CXL-30SC).

Steve

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-24-2010, 08:32 AM:

Spending 15.000+ on a non DCI projektctor seems unreasonable to me. It will never pay out - unless you regularly play non-DCI content on festivals or the like and have a dedicated budget for this.

There are some nice and cheap bright 3LCD machines - but their contrast ratio usually is bad, they rarely have 16:9 AR, and none of them offers FullHD resolution.
The panels also wear out quickly with this brightness if the projector is used a lot.

For static ads, a 1Chip DLP would be okay, but for anything moving, the RBE is just a NoGo.

Not an easy choice, if you want at least 720p, decent contrast ratio, long throw option (detachable lens).

We are actually getting away with an Epson FullHD 3LCD homevideo projector on a 7m wide screen with the built-in lens over a 20m throw. But with 2000 Lumen it's really on the edge, and we were just lucky with the critical parameters. We have a dedicated spare lamp for it that we put in whenever we show 'real' content from DVD or BD (rarely). The 'everyday' lamp is only used for pre-show powerpoint advertising.

These UHP lamps really loose brightness quickly - 50% after 500hrs is common. Still okay for colorful graphics ads, but not enough for todays movies.

There are hundreds if not thousands of projectors on the market - but for a cinema, it narrows down to a handful. Well, maybe a carpenters handful...

If you can manage to fly the beamer in the auditorium with a screen distance of 10-15m with a wired remote connected, you have a much larger choice of cheaper machines.

- Carsten

Posted by Kirk Futrell (Member # 5006) on 07-27-2010, 11:42 AM:

I just demo'd an Epson PowerLite Pro z8000WUNL
Its a 3LCD, so when I was putting it through its paces from a 90 ft throw on a 15 by 30 screen, I decided to see how bad the screen door effect was. As I was walking down the aisle to the screen I was checking to see at what row you could see the pixels. I got all the way to the screen and never saw the pixels. For a prosumer projector I was very impressed. The color and contrast on it are very good as well and its 6000 lumens. One caveat though they put all the inputs next to the lens. I have no idea why. Its very annoying at my theatre where we change inputs daily.

Posted by Ron Curran (Member # 3631) on 07-27-2010, 07:08 PM:

I agree with the posters who advise against spending more than $20K on a projector that won't allow you to show D-cinema files.

One other annoyance is that all (?) of these machines expect you to change settings using an on-screen display instead of a monitor with the operator. Apart from the fact that you don't want an audience to see your fiddling, the displays are difficult to read from 20 metres away.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-27-2010, 10:34 PM:

None of OUR customers have to change settings in front of an audience with the OSD. Sufficient control systems should be in place to avoid that. We use things as simple as the "Buttonmate XL" from Mediatech all of the way up to Crestron or AMX though most seem to be Extron MLC series controllers like the MLC 226 IP Expand it with some button panels like the CM9BLB and you can control most Alternative Content stuff, including the projector. Heck you can have it email you when the lamp needs to be changed or the filters need cleaning...etc.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-27-2010, 10:50 PM:

The Panasonics have a network card (usually an option, but standard on some models) and a web interface. The interface itself is a bit awkward, but it does allow all settings to be manipulated without showing any sort of display on the screen. They also have mechanical dousers to make possible an easy "changeover" from film to video or vice-versa. (I have never seen a video projector douser wired into the film c/o and/or automation system, but it is possible to do so.)

Sometimes I think that the industrial designers who are responsible for the exteriors of these things have gone off the deep end, though. The Epson that was mentioned earlier looks like a child's sled. The Sony VPLFW300L looks like a footstool. And the Sony VPL-FX52 looks like a flying saucer.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-27-2010, 11:50 PM:

Scott,

Come to the AFI/Silver or the National Gallery of Art...film to video or video film changeovers are done all of the time.

Note, some Sanyo models, like the PLV-WF20 have mechanical dousers now too.

Steve

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 07-27-2010, 11:52 PM:

My PT-DW5000E is wired into my Panamedia player.
At the stsrt of the 35mm presentation, the shutter closes.
Works perfectly with no light on screen while the lamp cools down.
I understald there are the next generation available with little to no cool down.
8 meter screen with a 10 meter throw.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-28-2010, 08:10 AM:

Maybe it's just me, but why would you need a mechanical dowser? Couldn't you just trigger the vid proj to shut off for a changeover or have it switch to a pattern of black while it cooled off in case immediate shut-down wasn't possible?

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 07-28-2010, 08:47 AM:

black is never black

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 07-28-2010, 09:16 AM:

To expand on Paul's reply to Chris: the video would be projecting "black" onto the screen, which means it would be projecting light. You end up with a projected square of light in the middle of your screen while the film is projecting. You have to be able to block or cut off the light source. If you are doing frequent changes from video o film, you don't want to turn off the video lamps and have to rewarm them every time you switch, so a douser of some sort is the best option.

Posted by Kirk Futrell (Member # 5006) on 07-28-2010, 10:36 AM:

We have a mechanical dowser on our video projectors. It won't work for everyone, though. Its my arm connected to a large piece of cardboard... When folks look back at the booth they are dazzled by the ingenuity and professionalism.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 07-28-2010, 10:41 AM:

We have the same douser! [Wink]

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 07-28-2010, 11:37 AM:

Fair enough, though I was thinking that in most situations you could just as easily trigger the thing to shut the lamp off.

Posted by Kirk Futrell (Member # 5006) on 07-29-2010, 09:40 AM:

Which technology do you prefer for life-cycle costs. I have heard of and experienced problems with LCDs. I have an 11 year old Proxima from 2000 that developed spots on the image, that weren't on the lens. A Sanyo that has developed what looks like 2 or 3 "bubbles" on the image. An 8 year Eiki 4000 lumen, that has had the blue LCD replaced to the tune of about 1500 bucks and a couple weeks out of town at the shop, as well as its most recent development of a blue cloud that takes up about 10% of the image near the top center (delamination?), which looks awful when you are trying to show black and white trailers.

What are the things that need maintenance or replacement in DLP's? What problems are associated with them as far as image degradation or service life goes?

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 07-29-2010, 12:41 PM:

I also have this futuristic dowser! [Smile]

I dislike the LCD machines for the reasons stated above plus i always notice a yellow tint over time even with a new bulb.
One of my theaters uses a 720p 3 chip DLP Infocus 777 and a new bulb restores the like new brightness!
After 3 years i see 0 degradation of the picture!
Cost new was just under 10 grand.

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 07-29-2010, 01:32 PM:

Kirk's problems with the Sanyo sound like the same problem I had, which was the result of one of the lamps (ours has 4) developing a bubble. Take the lamps out and take a look at them to make sure they haven't developed any deformities.