Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Major Digital Roll Out Under Way

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Posted by John Rizzo (Member # 1289) on 09-09-2010, 08:07 PM:

I inquired about ordering a Christie CP2210 projector yesterday from one of the major suppliers for a new DI Screening Room we will be installing in our facility. I was told that there is a 5-6 month wait for Digital Projectors at this time from all 3 major manufactures Christie,Barco and NEC due to the fact that most of the U.S.theaters are now in the process of going totally digital.Can anyone concur that information and if so how much more time does 35mm film have?

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-09-2010, 10:20 PM:

Yes, they will all be out of business very soon.

[Smile]

Posted by Jerome Holmes (Member # 5013) on 09-09-2010, 11:26 PM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Yes, they will all be out of business very soon.

I'm confused. There are three parties here - People who are still running 35mm, Barco/Christie/NEC, and the people doing their digital conversions. Which ones are you saying will be out of business (even if you're being sarcastic, which I'm not entirely sure you are).

Posted by Aaron Garman (Member # 1653) on 09-09-2010, 11:39 PM:

Our local Cinemark just added 3 more digital screens this week, making them digital on 4 out of 14 screens.

AJG

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-10-2010, 04:31 AM:

Some of the major chains are in the process of a major changeout to digital ... and heading to SONY 4K systems at some of their venues ...

Plus, some of your "Mom and Pop" cinemas are doing the switch along with sub/discount locations since the price of digital units are hitting the reasonable price range

..and 3D is helping this conversion to really move forward in a decent pace.

(Just that an independent cinema had better re-adjust their budget for more bulb purchases since digital projectors need bulb changeouts a lot more often than our film counterpart operations...)

-Monte

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 09-10-2010, 08:59 AM:

Same wait. If not longer... seems everyone is going digital at the same time, but still some movies only come in 35mm prints. Odd.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-10-2010, 09:29 AM:

Cinemark 17 here added 3 digital screens recently (now 4 out of 17) and installed the first digital screen in their bargain theater. I believe all of them are RealD 3D.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 09-10-2010, 11:47 AM:

I gave the [fu]

to a group of digital installs just last week [Smile]

Then i went home and watched some [dlp]

for free on my home theater screen!

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-10-2010, 12:28 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
(Just that an independent cinema had better re-adjust their budget for more bulb purchases since digital projectors need bulb changeouts a lot more often than our film counterpart operations...)

Why?? I do not see changing out the bulbs more often than my 35mm units. I see getting more hours because I can achieve better light levels using a lower wattage bulb than the 35mm was using in the same auditorium. I am very impressed with the new series 2 Barco projectors. Going from a 3K in a 35mm down to a 1.2K in a digital and still getting better light readings is impressive.

Our policy is warranty hours plus 25%. If a bulb explodes for some reason in that span, the bulb manufacture will replace all damaged components.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-10-2010, 12:44 PM:

4 out of 17 and 4 out of 14 doesn't sound like a "roll out" to me.

And yes, Jerome, Mark is being uber-sarcastic. [beer]

BTW, seems the industry is hot on the word "roll out." They have been claiming this immenent roll out for more than 5 years now, yet the majority of screens across the nation and indeed throughout the world are still running film.

CinemaScope conversion was what I call a reall roll out. Theatres closed for about two & a half weeks and when they reopened, they were showing a double wide picture with surround stereo sound; they went from Academy 1.37/mono to 2.35/4 DISCRETE track stereo and were showing a highly promoted, blockbuster title: THE ROBE. When the patrons went into the theatre to see CinemaScope for the first time, they saw and heard something that was a palpable difference and matched the hype. The same can't be said for a digital conversion.

A theatre throws in a digital projector on a few screens and as far as the patron is concerned, it's less than a how-hum difference, if he even sees or hears a difference unless (if film was done right, he wouldn't. Of course, if that theatre management was running such a substandard film operation that digital does look significantly better to the patron, then it was a crapola venue to begin with and then, guaranteed, put a digital projector into that kind of grindhouse environment and give them a few years of treating their digital equipment with just as much abuse and bad maintenance as they did their film equipment, and they will get their digital presentation to look just as "grindhouse" as they did with film. Then you will see a roll out of the digital grindhouse.

Just give these freaks who you read about in the "You Suck" thread enough time, and they will screw up digital as well as they did film. Equipment is only a small part of a flagship type presentation; digital won't significantly reduce that You Suck Hall of Shame because it's the personnel, the cut-corners attitude and overall disrespect for the craft, not the equipment that will turn a cinema a grindhouse. Putting in a new projector won't improve those things.

Posted by Paul Mayer (Member # 355) on 09-10-2010, 01:13 PM:

I've been doing almost nothing but digital installs for a major chain since May, mostly Sony 322's, with some Christie and Barco thrown in too. By the time we leave many of these sites, they are completely digital. So the digital rollout is most definitely underway, at least from my perspective. And it's keeping me off the streets too - doing anywhere from one to four days each week, one to three screens a day.

Hey Monte! I'll be up your way the week after next with a team to install three theaters in Nampa and Boise...

Posted by Paul Linfesty (Member # 214) on 09-10-2010, 01:32 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
Theatres closed for about two & a half weeks and when they reopened, they were showing a double wide picture with surround stereo sound; they went from Academy 1.37/mono to 2.35/4 DISCRETE track stereo and were showing a highly promoted, blockbuster title: THE ROBE.

Two and a half week closure? that seems excessive. In Bakersfield, the first CinemaScope installation was at the Fox Theatre in the first week of August (even though The Robe wouldnt have a World premiere until late September, and wouldn't even play locally until November). There was a detailed article about the installation in ther paper, and the theatre never closed down during the installation; rather, the screen was installed behind the Polavision screen (itself just installed in March for 3-D movies). Also, the Nile Theatre closed for a Saturday afternoon for installation of the system, again a while before its first scope production. And the Nile's installation involved building the new screen (and curtains) in front of the original procenium.

BTW, the AR of the Robe and all other MAG only scope films should have been 2.55.

Posted by Darryl Spicer (Member # 711) on 09-10-2010, 01:47 PM:

5 years ago the money was not there....now the money is there and in DCIP's account. Right now is the 3-D roll out...... spread out....bounce out.....whatever you want to call it. When that is complete then the full deployment begins.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-10-2010, 01:48 PM:

How can digital look more "grindhouse" than film? The image might be dim, the optics might be dirty. What else would cause it to look "grindhouse"? There can be no scratches, no dirt, no splices, no unsteadiness. Pretty much anything else that goes wrong with digital would be an outright malfunction that would probably cause a lost show. Am I missing something? I mean this has been debated endlessly and I'm still trying to understand how a sloppy operator can mess up a digital show except in the case of something related to light level or dirty optics. Anything else is hardware failure.

Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 09-10-2010, 01:48 PM:

We are only seeing the edge of the storm as far as digital rollouts. (currently there are around 12,000 digital screens in the US)

DCIP is installing screens like madmen, and our P2 rollout is starting to pick up serious steam.

By mid next year most every major chain will be primarily digital (90%+)

At that point I foresee digital only releases (perhaps as soon as early next year)

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-10-2010, 02:15 PM:

Frank, if I recall correctly, the industry was on the verge of starting a "roll-out" ever since Episode II came out in 2002. Nice to see they're finally getting around to it!

[Smile]

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-10-2010, 06:39 PM:

Dim pictures and dirty lenses aren't exactly insignificant issues and are pretty much what makes a theatre a grindhouse for me. Not to mention all the other non-booth stuff like an overall dirty house and nasty staff, and all the other the stuff that makes people complain about going to the theatre. My point being, digital won't do much to positively impact such vile places. People will still hate to go to them.

And as for the houses that Do Film Right, where there are NO scratches, and NO dirt and steady, well maintained projection, and excellent sound without blown voicecoils -- digital won't do very much to make a substantial impact on patron satisfaction there because film that's done right has looked and sounded damn good all along.

As for the speed of the CinemaScope conversion, I think it was very much dependent on the physical structure of each theatre. In my area of Queens, the single screens that I frequented as a youngster were such that they needed to do lots of construction to install the new process; it wasn't just a matter of putting in a wider screen in the same proscenium. I remember going by the Century Fresh Meadows Theatre which was one of their flagship houses (about 800 seats) in my neighborhood and peering in one of the open side doors; no question there was major reconstruction being done. I recall seeing lots of scaffolding and guys with wheelbarrows with cement. Theatres of this caliber of course used curtains which meant they had put in new track, extend curtain warmers, valances, possibly entire new curtains had to be installed, and where there was no moving masking before, new motorized masking tracks had to be installed and wired back to the booth, and then speakers and all that additional wiring.

My recollection was that they were closed for weeks, but then again, I was an awe-struck kid and whereas it many not have taken them two weeks, they certainly didn't do on the overnight either. As a kid I knew something BIG was going to happen for a theatre to be closed. They had "Closed to install CinemaSope for THE ROBE" on the marquee.

The switch to digital, so far as I have seen, seems to be done on the down-low as they say. It's done without a hint of hype. What's THAT about? That is about as un-Hollywood as burning the flag is un-American!

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-10-2010, 08:45 PM:

A lot more can go wrong with a video projector then with film. Missing a color or colors, missing bits causing posterization in one of more colors, stuck pixels, problems in the decoder and decompression causing jumping, jerking, stuttering, and screwy color, server freeze. Don't forget you can still have a missaligned lamp, or the projector knocked off center, and no one sees it because no one cares.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-10-2010, 11:00 PM:

Right you are Bruce. And as Frank pointed out, the slackers who couldn't do film right are in for some very nasty and expensive surprises with [dlp]

. Give it time, it will come crashing down around everyone and a mad rush will be on to go BACK to 35mm film.

Posted by Anslem Rayburn (Member # 1267) on 09-11-2010, 06:02 AM:

Digital is here. It's not going away. Nobody is going to rush back to 35mm. I enjoy film, but the reality is it's run it's course. Records sounded better than tapes, tapes sounded better than CDs, and CDs sounded better than MP3s. Not enough people care about it to make an economic difference.

For an industry worried about DVD windows, it seems silly that there would be a debate about which format is better.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-11-2010, 08:27 AM:

For an industry worried about DVD windows, moving your presentation closer to a DVD quality experience seems like the most colossal mistake in Hollywood history, but maybe that's just me. Time will tell, I guess.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-11-2010, 09:34 AM:

While I agree, nobody is going to be rushing back to 35mm film...the "records sounded better than tapes" statement above was FALSE...nobody (or very few freaks) ever thought records sounded better than tapes. And by tapes, I don't mean the cassette type...which were designed for dictation. I mean the open-reel type...you know...the ones that made the masters...FOR THE RECORDS (Since WWII, at least).

However, you point is taken...as cassettes displaced open-reel machines at the consumer level (for the most part and definitely at the pre-recorded level), despite open-reel always sounding better than the cassette counterpart (I've done many a blind testing on that one...I NEVER had the reel-to-reel lose to the cassette and I used pretty high-end cassettes against middle-of-the-road reel-to-reels).

I don't know if I would call it a roll out or transition or what...the bulk for us remains 3D oriented and that bubble seems to be bursting.

I think that if 4K production through DI becomes the norm, while it will improve film's look over the crappy 2K DI...it will give digital a much more legitimate claim on being a successor...at that point, you are are at least on par, resolution wise with film's 1.85 format...while color/contrast may not be there...on a release print, you aren't there anyway.

-Steve

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 09-11-2010, 01:11 PM:

Steve, I'm guessing you never used the YAMAHA K-1020 deck? It is what I used back in high school and the results were literally unbelieveable. I could dupe cds to that thing and only under direct A-B comparisons could anyone tell a difference and all agreed it was soooooo minor it just didn't matter. I literally never thought that silly "compact cassette" format could ever produce any good sound...but it did on that machine.

http://www.vintagecassette.com/Yamaha/K-1020

Manual

I forget the Nakamichi model that most people raved over, but in a direct comparison this Yamaha took it down. Other than this one model cassette deck, it was open reel all the way though.

Posted by David Stambaugh (Member # 1102) on 09-11-2010, 01:29 PM:

A digital show with those kinds of obvious malfunctions will result in far more walkouts & refunds than a 35mm show with dirt or scratches. A theater operator can't let digital degrade to the point where it's obviously completely hosed. Let's be realistic here.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 09-11-2010, 02:02 PM:

One thing is for sure on the DCinema front...failures will almost always result in lost shows...with film systems...SOME failures results in lost shows...others limp along, in some fashion.

As for the K-1020...yes it is a bit of a famous deck (and I want to say there was a Kenwood out there too that had a good rep). The Nakamichi decks of fame were the Dragon (I have one), the 1000 (probably their best), the 700 (too expensive for what it was...just get the 1000) and the 680ZX (not the ZXL). As to Nakamichi being all perfect (in some eyes), I had my Pioneer CT-F1250, out record/playback the Dragon (both tweaked).

And without exception, a Teac A3300-SX or an Akai (640, I think) out recorded them all... took all takers on that challenge...there was not statistical evidence that people could tell the original from the open-reel but they could always tell the cassette. I think the Cassette did very well given its small size and slow speed but one can only push it but so far...it is like 35mm versus 70mm or 24fps versus 60fps.

Steve

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-11-2010, 08:36 PM:

film tech topic - problem with digital PJ

Case in point. Does anybody at the theater care?

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 09-11-2010, 09:15 PM:

So far I've only had one lost show with our digitals. The touchscreen went out on one of our GDC's and hooking up an external monitor didn't help. It was a corrupted video driver or something. Anyway, most other problems have been solved by rebooting the server and then being able to fast forward to where the movie left off has kept all patrons happy. Can't say that's easily done with platters.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-11-2010, 09:27 PM:

quote:
...... Anyway, most other problems have been solved by rebooting the server and then being able to fast forward to where the movie left off has kept all patrons happy. Can't say that's easily done with platters.

I call "yeah, right" on that last (in bold) statement. [Big Grin]

After thinking it through and unfortunately having to do it a few times when things went south, I gaurandamntee you that I can recover on a platter faster than the time it takes to reboot a server and fast forward to where the crash happened.

Is it easy? Not really, but still less time than server reboot time and with greater possibility of success...if a server crashes, how do you KNOW it isn't gonna crash again at the same point when you try to restart?

Steve hit it on the head with this:

quote: Steve Guttag
...with film systems...SOME failures results in lost shows...others limp along, in some fashion.

And the thread Bruce pointed out is a prime example of the kind of crap that's gonna discredit the whole idea that D-Crapema is the cure-all end-all to exhibition's woes.

Wake up people. It's gonna crash, and crash big time.

Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 09-11-2010, 09:52 PM:

I agree that people won't be rushing back to film. I also agree that most issues with a film show can be solved quickly and the show resumed.

However I do not agree that compact cassette ever sounded better than CDs. Not that it isn't possible... but you would lose transportability. By that I mean the tape would have to be recorded and played back on the same deck, otherwise the quality would drop. Hell, you could have 5.1 super high resolution SACD quality audio on a compact cassette, granted playback would be limited to about 2 or 3 minutes or so.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 09-11-2010, 10:29 PM:

Yeah, you guys have it wrong... it's LPs that sound better than CDs.

Posted by Jeremy Weigel (Member # 4208) on 09-11-2010, 10:38 PM:

I meant that rewinding film on platters is not easily done. The biggest complaint from patrons when something happens with film is that they feel like they missed a substantial amount of the movie even if you get it back up and running.

Case in point, we had a power hickup a few weeks ago causing some of the CP65's to reboot but the projectors kept running and the lamps re-ignited. Of course they went into non-sync for a minute or less (probably closer to 30 sec since the operator immediately ran around to each machine to check). Some patrons requested refunds or passes since they missed part of the show. Now of course I could have stopped each one, un-threaded the machine, rewound the film by hand and guessed at how far back to go, re-threaded and start it back up hoping that I went back far enough. But it would have taken much longer than rebooting a server. Our servers take about 90 seconds to reboot and then maybe another minute to fast forward through previews and drag the slide bar to the approximate time it left it crashed. All this happened even though the CP65's are on an UPS's (turned out to be "aged" batteries).

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 09-11-2010, 10:51 PM:

If you're gonna have a breakdown, it's almost BETTER to have it last a few minutes rather than 30 seconds or so. Because half the audience will decide to go to the bathroom or the concession stand (especially if you offer free refills etc. on a breakdown). They prefer to be back in their seat when the show resumes.

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 09-12-2010, 07:54 AM:

The plain and simple truth of the matter is... there are some on these boards that will hate digital no matter what, based on personal biases, biases that will never be altered no matter how hard anyone else tries to explain how faulty those biases are. They will latch on to any problem, perceived or real, based on mechanical failure or human mistake, and use that as a way to push their bias.

I recently went from a 13 screen house with one Digital house and 12 35mm houses, to a 14 screen all digital house. To be completely honest, I love being all digital. Whatever problems the digital haters in this forum use to rip digital apart, I do not have. In the two years my current location has been in operation, we have lost a grand total of ZERO shows. Why? Because all of the managers and those trusted to ne in the booth have been properly trained on how to problem solve, and what few problems we have had in two years, we have been able to solve in a matter of a couple minutes.

Digital also opens up a world of possibility to audiences. In our small town located about an hour and a half drive away from a major metropolitan city, we don't get a whole lot of world class events like the New York Metropolitan Opera coming to town, but we can and do bring events like this to our neighbors, and they love us for it. If a local business wants to do a PowerPoint presentation for their employees, we can set that up almost instantly. Someone wants to rent a screen to have a private gaming tournament? No problem. We can cater to the wants and needs of our community much more effectively with digital than with 35mm.

The only honest drawback to digital that I can see right now is the lack of classic movies remastered for 2K or 4K DLP. But let's face it, most of the 35mm prints of Harold and Maude or Taxi Driver that are available to theatres are in pretty well worn by now.

Part of me is hoping in five or ten years that most repertory titles have been converted to DLP, if only because I want to open a rep house in my home town. Introduce a new generation to the likes of The King of Hearts or The Ruling Class.

But getting back on topic for a second, it is true that demand is outpacing supply when it comes to digital projectors. Digital projection, whether one likes it or not, is here to stay, and those who refuse to join us in the present and the future will be relegated to the past.

Posted by Frank Angel (Member # 248) on 09-12-2010, 09:36 AM:

quote: Edward Havens
The plain and simple truth of the matter is... there are some on these boards that will hate digital no matter what, based on personal biases, biases that will never be altered no matter how hard anyone else tries to explain how faulty those biases are. They will latch on to any problem, perceived or real, based on mechanical failure or human mistake, and use that as a way to push their bias.

Hmmm, and your observations eschew this....how?

Your experience is based on one specific theatre and in one specific location, yet on that experience you are making judgements about how the technology will work everywhere. Heed you own criticism.

Many people on this board have been working for decades in the industry and just because they have a broad background and knowledge to be able to point out problems they seen with a new technology doesn't mean they "hate" digital. You seem to "love" digital based solely on your single experience. You also seem to ignore the fact that you are basing your comparison on older film equipment that has been running in that booth for probably longer than you've been alive. To compare all the variables that affect booth operational such as maintenance costs, operation costs and the potential for lost shows based on digital equipment that is literally new out of the box with film equipment that's been running for decades is seriously flawed.

And BTW, the "truth," as you say, Edward, is never plain and it's never simple.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 09-12-2010, 01:17 PM:

Thank you Frank, you saved me from having to shoot Edward down myself. [Big Grin]

I have 29 years experience in this industry and have worked on everything from tube amps and carbon arcs to today's digital amps, crossovers and xenon lamps.

I have also encountered a fair number of D-Crapema installs and have seen and experienced the problems (and the plusses) first-hand. I can say and will admit that DLP, when things are working, can do a great job. But even the current state of the art digital projection has visible artifacts that are very distracting, (bear in mind I am one of those who can see individual FRAMES stepping in film projection) and as already pointed out in numerous threads, breakdowns frequently result in TOTAL loss of a show, where short of major mechanical or electrical failure, breakdowns in film can usually be resolved quickly or inexpensively.

quote: Edward Havens
...The only honest drawback to digital that I can see right now is the lack of classic movies remastered for 2K or 4K DLP..... (and) ....Part of me is hoping in five or ten years that most repertory titles have been converted to DLP,

And I wouldn't hold my breath on that. I have clients that are in the same boat and wishing to get rep content on dlp. But as of now it isn't gonna happen any time soon. There is simply NO economic motivation to master the classics for DLP. And seeing as the whole D-Crapema caper is motivated by the studio's greed and desire to save money, do you honestly believe that they will shell out the money to master the rep classics for the very limited market share? [Roll Eyes]

I am all for technology when it advances the cause and is applied properly and with due diligence, neither of which is true about D-Crapema so far.

Posted by Bruce Hansen (Member # 281) on 09-12-2010, 06:57 PM:

I could see how in a "small" theater, if the 35MM projector had been left in place, if the digital PJ crapped out, and it was going to cost say $4000.00 to fix it, the managment might tell the leasing company to come get that digital piece of curd, and they would go back to film. If the theater told the studios that they need film prints from now on, the studios WILL send them film prints. After all, this is all about money. The studios have an option, send film, or loose the money from showing their movies at that location.

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 09-12-2010, 08:38 PM:

Bruce: maybe, maybe not. Depends on the vpf contract the theatre signed. Louis

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 09-12-2010, 09:47 PM:

I don't think they will be worth fixing in ten years!
So then for sure back to 35mm [Smile]

Posted by Edward Havens (Member # 4715) on 09-13-2010, 03:31 PM:

quote: Frank Angel
Your experience is based on one specific theatre and in one specific location, yet on that experience you are making judgements about how the technology will work everywhere. Heed you own criticism.

Thank you for making my point for me, Frank. My posting clearly states I have experience with Digital Cinema in more than one location, but in the rush to make your point based on your prejudices and biases, you ignore this fact. You also jump to conclusions that this is my only experience with Digital Cinema, when it is not. In the past 24 years, I have worked with 16 and 35 and 70mm, I have worked with Christie and NEC and Barco digital projectors, I have worked with Doremi and Dolby Digital servers, and I have worked with RealD and Dolby Digital 3D. In the six years I have been working with Digital Cinema, the theatres I have worked at have easily run tens of thousands of shows digitally, without one single major interruption in service.

Next time, fact check before going on a spiel.

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 09-27-2010, 09:32 PM:

quote: Elise Brandt
Same wait. If not longer... seems everyone is going digital at the same time, but still some movies only come in 35mm prints. Odd.

Not necessarily, Elise. At my former employer, where the only films we showed in digital were Indian films, the mainstream Hindi movies that showed in 35mm were almost always from studios who didn't want to pay a VPF.

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 09-27-2010, 11:08 PM:

Just wanted to clarify something, the thread subject title "Major Digital Roll Out Under Way" seems to suggest the process has now finally started.

Some theater chains already have all or nearly all of their screens equipped with digital projection. The state of progress with the "roll out" differs from one theater chain to the next.

Regarding "digital haters" in this forum, all of the pros and cons about digital projection have been discussed and debated numerous times over the last decade. The early versions of [dlp]

deserved to be hated. The 1280 X 1024 native resolution and lack of compression standards made the first generation of digital cinema pretty crappy. 2K made things much better, but not better than film done right. Of course the tyranny of 2K-based digital intermediates in post production placed an image quality bottleneck on 35mm print production.

I think 2K digital projection is acceptable on modest sized theater screens, just don't sit too close to the screen. 2K really starts to fall apart on big or giant-sized screens. 4K based projection showing native 4K rendered imagery is badly needed in those situations. But the brightness and contrast levels have to improve. I know the first Sony 4K projectors were not so great on light output. What has changed with the newest ones? Is Texas Instruments ready with that native 4K DLP chip yet?

I still have a fairly negative point of view regarding the use of video cameras in making feature movies (I refuse to call them "films"). Perhaps as image sensors continue to improve the electronic cameras may perform better in imitating the film look. Until then, I prefer big budget movies to be shot on film. Hopefully more movies shot with video cameras will be shot in 4K resolution, but the current trend of pushing 3D could mean more movies shot in dual 1080p instead.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 09-28-2010, 12:13 AM:

quote: Edward Havens
I have worked with Christie and NEC and Barco digital projectors....

Wait until you get involved with a Sony 4K XRD unit, then let us know what you think .... most unruly and proprietory animal that ever stepped foot on the face of the earth ....

-Monte

Posted by Michael Goucher (Member # 199) on 09-29-2010, 09:01 PM:

All amc and Regal New York City cinemas and most of its suburban theatres are now all-digital. National Amusements is currently rolling out Sonys into their multiplexes with a view to being all-digital all the time in all their theatres by the end of 2011. <-> No one here has discussed the fact that polyester 35mm prints, produced by the thousands every single week, is virtually indestructable. What about Green Film was totally misunderstood? It is not biodegradable and it is costly to produce. Digital provides a double-barrel solution to a global headache. And, as George Lucas has proved, you can make digital look more like film than film does.

Posted by Ian Parfrey (Member # 5122) on 09-29-2010, 09:36 PM:

quote: Michael Goucher
No one here has discussed the fact that polyester 35mm prints, produced by the thousands every single week, is virtually indestructable. What about Green Film was totally misunderstood? It is not biodegradable and it is costly to produce. Digital provides a double-barrel solution to a global headache. And, as George Lucas has proved, you can make digital look more like film than film does.

I haven't heard so much [bs]

in all my life.

Polyester film base is a BYPRODUCT of oil refining and as such is another use for cracked byproducts. It is recycleable and is no more expensive to produce that computer hardware eg hard drives, memory, gold plated circuit board contacts &tc &tc. Neither is any digital delivery system biodegradable. Guess what happens to obsolete digital equipment? It gets thrown away. Brilliant for the environment, don't you think?
Saying that digital is environ friendly is in effect a ridiculous non arguement.

Saying digital can look more like film than film is exactly the same as saying a copy of the Mona Lisa is 'just as good as the original'....or margarine is more buttery than butter. Film looks like film because it IS film. No amount of effect cloning will change that.

I'm not saying that digital is the anti-christ, but the way some people claim it as being the panacea for all ills, both practical and environmental are kidding themselves and everyone else.

Posted by Michael Goucher (Member # 199) on 09-30-2010, 10:15 AM:

quote: Ian Parfrey
Polyester film base is a BYPRODUCT of oil refining and as such is another use for cracked byproducts. It is recycleable...

It will degrade over time, like the half-life of uranium. Can one re-use it by putting new images on its base? Possibly. Is it happening? NO! Is it re-cyclable like empty 2-liter bottles? No one is doing it; not one such recycling plant exists on Earth. Meanwhile, processing plants all over the planet are spewing out many thousands of multi-reel prints EVERY SINGLE WEEK!

quote: Ian Parfrey
Guess what happens to obsolete digital equipment? It gets thrown away.

As far as the drives themselves, they are re-cycled at the end of the run. The hardware is a different matter, although it is VERY likely that once a theatre owner sinks $360,000 US into building a digital screen he is not going to hurl it out as fast as consumers dump their desktops and laptops.
BTW: I have no love whatsoever for what this digital roll out has enabled owners to do, which is to slash and burn jobs during a global recession. I was just bringing up a point that has been overlooked in the discussion. And, while intellectually your argument may have merit, in actual practice the film gets stored deeply into mountains (abandoned mines reconstructed for the purpose of storing prints) scattered all over the globe.

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 09-30-2010, 10:43 AM:

Who's sinking $360,000 for a digital screen? Sounds like someone's getting a bit overbid...

Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-01-2010, 08:51 AM:

quote: Michael Goucher
What about Green Film was totally misunderstood?

Green Film? Maybe on the margins. Green Cinema? Not very likely. The amount of energy it takes to run a cinema, from HVAC to the 2k and up lamps is so energy intensive it pretty much keeps the cinema biz out of the Green Zone. If the motion picture industry wanted to go green, they would close down all the cinemas and tell people to watch in their homes. Which I sometimes think is their real goal anyway.

Posted by Geena Phillips (Member # 3726) on 10-01-2010, 01:29 PM:

quote: Mark J. Marshall
Yeah, you guys have it wrong... it's LPs that sound better than CDs.

Aww. You're so cute; I wish I had a camera right now.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-01-2010, 02:34 PM:

Well, we don't have HVAC, and we run a 2kW bulb in our 50yrs Ernemann. Our auditorium lights eat more energy than the Xenon bulb. But they are off during the show ;-)

Considering the numbers of people we serve with a few kWhrs per day, I would think we are 'greener' than any typical household.

- Carsten

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 10-02-2010, 02:14 AM:

quote: Geena Phillips
At my former employer, where the only films we showed in digital were Indian films, the mainstream Hindi movies that showed in 35mm were almost always from studios who didn't want to pay a VPF.

Now that I would understand. What is odd to me is that there are no VPF deals in place here in Finland, not that I know of. So I'm left to wonder why digital copies aren't made by all distributors, since there is absolutely nothing that could be gained by keeping it all 35mm. Must be something I'm missing [Big Grin]

VPF would be the good reason if there were any around.

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-02-2010, 07:30 PM:

quote: Michael Goucher
Not one such recycling plant exists on Earth.

What the hell are you talking about? Kodak provides film recycling services.

Link.

quote: Geena Phillips
Aww. You're so cute; I wish I had a camera right now.

I'll wait so you can go get one if you like. [Smile]

Posted by Manny Montes (Member # 5639) on 10-03-2010, 04:06 AM:

Love film, the ability to hot swap out parts from spare into a broken projector and have the show back up after 5-10 minutes is amazing. HOWEVER, I've never had an issue with digital yet. I honestly will miss film, but i'm beginning to believe that digital is coming no matter what, these companies have the financing and motivation now, and its already beginning with most major chains having plans to be all digital within the next 5 years. I just hope that we can learn from early mistakes. Barco makes a great projector, the new sony is a definite improvement as well.
I haven't gotten to play around with a christie, but I did see a Barco what i'm assuming was a DP2K-23B fitted with a reald XL system, and MAN was it a bright beautiful picture, the brightest i've seen in either film or digital. Amazing light levels, I almost wanted to measure them... almost

Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-03-2010, 05:01 AM:

The truth is that when you are down with digital you really are down. A periodic maintenance should be made every year at least with cleaning the filters, liquid checks etc. As far as how long the excisting light engines can keep going only time can tell. There are benefits in Dcinema whether we like it or not. i still believe that film rules yet we have to move on when the tome comes. Personally i wouldnt mind film staying for another 100 years although I don't think it will happen. Some things change while others remain the same.
Demetris