This is topic Variety Says Film Not Dead Yet in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.
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Posted by Martin McCaffery (Member # 37) on 10-10-2010, 08:42 PM:
Feel free to pick it apart.
Is it really true the projectors have to be kept under 95 degrees? Even air conditioned, our booth gets hotter than that in the summer.
quote:
ShowEast: No dirge for 35mm prints
Film remains vital despite long-predicted demise
By DAVID S. COHEN
No dirge for 35mm prints | Surprise revival for 35mm
The conversion to digital projectors, slowed by the global recession of 2008, has resumed apace, driven in no small part by the gold-rush pursuit of 3D ticket surcharges.
So is cinema projection ready for a decisive shift to digital that would kill the 35mm film print once and for all?
Don't bet on it.
"We'll still process billions of feet of film this year as we have for many years," says Deluxe COO Warren Stein. "We believe that film is going to be around for a long time."
Eric Rodli, general manager, Panavision 3D System concurs.
"The ultimate death of film has been predicted for 20 or 30 years," says Rodli. "I don't know how many times I've had to say film will be around a long time."
Joe Berchtold, president of Technicolor's Creative Services business, observes there are both economic and creative reasons for film prints to survive.
On the creative side, says Berchtold, some filmmakers prefer to shoot and display on film "because they feel it's the truest representation of their creative ideas."
But Berchtold concedes that wouldn't be enough. The economics of film, however, continue to be better than those of digital.
For distributors, film prints are still cheaper than digital prints. Kodak and Fuji subsidize the cost of film prints, so Virtual Print Fees exceed the studio's net cost for a print.
What's more, moving a print around a circuit is free for a film print, but with digital, a new VPF is due for each move.
Exhibitors, for their part, were never enamored of digital in the first place. Only 3D provided a carrot, though now there is growing interest in alternative content.
However there are major terriritories where the price of d-cinema equipment is prohibitive -- and theaters are simply not ready for it anyway.
D-cinema projectors are supposed to be kept under 95 degrees fahrenheit. In old cinemas in climes where the outside temperature routinely reaches triple digits, such as India, the costs of sealing and air conditioning an old single-screen theater (or even just its booth), which might demand possibly additional electrical lines, is too great a capital investment. Moreover, the electricity cost of A/C adds to operating expenses.
Running d-cinema systems without A/C would shorten their life -- if they run at all at those high temps.
So as long as such cinemas remain in operation, there is likely to be demand for film prints.
Lenny Lipton, prexy and chief science officer of Oculus 3D, one of several companies offering a 3D-on-35mm solution, observes "If there are tens of thousands of theaters that can't convert to digital, they may go out of business if the stereoscopic medium becomes ubiquitous. That's a crazy business model for the distributors."
Berchtold oberves there's been a payback for d-cinema because of 3D. The question he asks is: "What's the saturation level for 3D.
"People don't expect the whole market to move to 3D. When you get to that saturation point what's the future incentive for digital?"
Contact the Variety newsroom at news@variety.com.
Read more: http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118025197.html?categoryid=2731&cs=1#ixzz120fwdm7L
Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 10-10-2010, 09:14 PM:
quote: Martin McCaffery
Is it really true the projectors have to be kept under 95 degrees?
I've never heard that point either, but it makes sense. Computers prefer the temperature to be cool - that's why data centers are kept cool.
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-11-2010, 12:10 AM:
If you look at the specs of all of the digital servers and projectors, you will see a temp range from 95-105F so yes, high ambient temp can be a deal breaker for DCinema. Of course, it would not be too expensive to build a box around the DCinema equipment and merely air condition that space.
Steve
Posted by David Zylstra (Member # 4230) on 10-11-2010, 06:23 AM:
DCI says that the exhibitor has to keep the environment between 10 and 35 deg C - or 50 to 95 deg F (and 10-85% humidity).
I heard a few years ago that film stock sales were expected to surge and peak for a few more years and then slowly die out once the majority of theatres went digital.
The article says that Kodak and Fuji are "subsidizing" film? sounds like they are trying to slow down the DCinema conversion to hang on to the business (I once heard someone say the profit margins on film were extremely high - not sure if true)
quote:
What's more, moving a print around a circuit is free for a film print, but with digital, a new VPF is due for each move.
This part is completely untrue - we are unrestricted in where we move our "prints", the ony restriction is we cannot show more simultaneous copies than we are booked for (i.e. if you are booked for 1 "print" you cannot schedule 2 full auditoriums of shows).
Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 10-11-2010, 08:36 AM:
quote: David Zylstra
This part is completely untrue - we are unrestricted in where we move our "prints", the ony restriction is we cannot show more simultaneous copies than we are booked for (i.e. if you are booked for 1 "print" you cannot schedule 2 full auditoriums of shows).
You'll notice that they didn't say you're charged a VPF for moving the print to different houses in the same location. It said you'd get a VPF if you moved it around a circuit. AFAIK, moving around a circuit would be taking your print and moving it to another theater in the same chain nearby. I could be wrong, though.
Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 10-11-2010, 09:38 AM:
The title of this thread is rather ironic, considering that Variety supposedly printed a "Film is Dead" headline when Ampex first introduced the video tape recorder in 1956.
Posted by Todd McCracken (Member # 4718) on 10-11-2010, 11:50 AM:
We shall see, I predict 2011 will see the first digital only releases outside of 3d.
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-11-2010, 05:22 PM:
Most of the bookers you talk to are going to be saying it has ~two years based on the conversion factor of the big three. There's no getting away from that! Film will always be around in some form in some places... it'll certainly be a quaint way to watch a subject in just a few years time. Many projectors may find their way to lobbies to be put on display for little Joey's dad to be able to tell him about the gold ole days.
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-11-2010, 05:47 PM:
quote: Steve Guttag
Of course, it would not be too expensive to build a box around the DCinema equipment and merely air condition that space.
Steve!!! Did you really say what I just read? This is so unlike you to trivialize such a foolish idea.
That is a HORRIBLE idea. I know its all the rage these days of building "boothless" cinemas and such, but I have to remind you that an air conditioner is just like a hard drive. The question isn't if it will fail, but when.
Lets exaggerate this a bit. Pretend there is an oven (door closed) in the middle of an average size auditorium and you are sitting next to it reading the latest issue of Variety. That oven is generating heat, but you have air conditioning to combat it. Now lets take an identical oven (door closed) and shove it (and you) in a small closet only slightly bigger than the oven itself. No worries, you have air conditioning and your latest issue of Variety magazine to combat it, right? Well...sort of, but for the sake of this argument lets say yes.
WHEN the air conditioning fails, which "booth" is going to overheat first and have you screaming to get the hell out of there...and how fast will it happen as compared to the other "booth"?
For anyone that can't handle that mathematical example, please get out of the industry and spare the rest of us with functioning brains.
Also you will find that when you have a lot of air conditioning in a small space with equipment putting off lots of BTUs, it becomes very difficult to truly get the system sized and installed properly. I've seen this type of nonsense first hand and it is THE stupidest thing I've ever had to deal with. Yes I'm talking about you Mr. Humidity. There's nothing quite like partway through a movie the port window fogging up because the system was cycling. Nevermind the condensation inside the projector either. Do you WANT the projector to die?
This is a classic example of "what's the price" vs. "what will this cost me"? Oh sweetie, it'll COST you a lot!
At the end of the day, it costs MORE to put a projector in a box than it does to build a small mezzanine. Now by small mezzanine I don't mean "sky closets". I mean a mezzanine the length of the building, but not wide. Not only does construction become cheaper (think about it, all of the plumbing, HVAC and electrical work no longer needs to be performed on lifts, as much can now be performed via ladders) but WHEN that air conditioning fails...your projectors can still keep running because there is now all of that dead area in the mezzanine that the heat can disperse to. (And remember, that dead area isn't going to increase your tonnage if the booth was designed properly.)
Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 10-11-2010, 08:42 PM:
As someone in the HVAC/R industry I have to agree with Brad. While it is entire possible to have a very functional system for such a small room with perfect temp/humidity control. They are very expensive and even the best system will eventually break. So you would have to install a second backup system as well.
Having a booth with multiple A/c units is the best way to go. This way they will provide good humidity control and redundancy
Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 10-11-2010, 09:48 PM:
Brad,
I was not endorsing the method...merely stating it was possible to overcome the temperature issue. I could also show the math that it could be cheaper to have spare A/C units and suitable temp./humidity sensors to know when a unit is failing.
Again, I'm not suggesting it is a good idea but it is certainly a viable one for the cheapskate.
Steve
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-11-2010, 09:51 PM:
No, any way you slice it that is a horrible idea. By having multiple systems and controllers and sensors, the entire thing becomes overcomplicated. These days finding an HVAC repairman that can actually fix a generic system is hard enough. My experience has shown to pay the price needed to get a suitable system designed AND installed properly doesn't touch the benefits during construction (both time and money) as well as the "oh shit" factor when the system goes down. With the booth...the show goes on. With the projector cage...abuse and/or death.
You also forgot, cheapskates are so cheap they wouldn't put in a second system. Also if you found one that did, once the first system went down, they wouldn't have anyone come out and fix it while they were running on the second system because "its cooling ok". Oh and lets not forget "but the customers don't go up there". Well of course they don't, but your $50k projector has to live up there!
Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 10-11-2010, 10:50 PM:
I think quite a few movies will still be shot on film for at least several more years. Video cameras are making steady improvements in terms of resolution, light sensitivity and color depth. But they still have that video look. And the video look can really show up like crazy in dark, low light settings despite all the work film look filters and color grading tricks do to hide that soap opera appearance. Lots of movies have a great deal of night time footage and scenes in dark, mysterious environments. Unless you're watching a bright, silly movie with CGI altered talking chihuahuas you're going to be seeing some dark scenes.
A badly filmed movie still looks like it was shot on film. Shooting a movie in "digital" requires a little more care if the film look is really desired.
I suppose at some point video cameras will be able to imitate the film look believably and even do so in real time within the camera as the movie is being recorded. The technology is just not there yet. My hope is that the camera sensors will continue to see big improvements in resolution (and that lens technology will improve along with it). At some point maybe we won't care if the footage doesn't look like film because it looks even more detailed and real. Video just needs to get better at being video instead of trying to be like film.
Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-12-2010, 02:30 AM:
quote: Steve Guttag
to build a box around the DCinema equipment and merely air condition that space
Dang, another crazy idea then: could a reverse be done on this idea with sticking an exhaust hood with a 1000cfm fan attached above all of this box concept to draw out the heat with outside cool air being drawn in via louvers in the door to replace the warm inside?
Just build a big room and keep the AC down to 65 and 50% humidity to place all of this DCI stuff in ...
Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-12-2010, 08:37 AM:
There is a new 16 plex going up in SAC that will put the 16 BARCO projectors in cubes and on lifts right in the auditorium. Talk about servicing nightmare! I can't imagine anything worse than this.
Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-12-2010, 09:46 AM:
Well, if we do talk 'fundamental', then why should we assume a HVAC to fail guaranteed, but not a projector?
The system complexity of a DCI setup is a few dimensions higher than that of a HVAC, and the RAID does only protect content.
What keeps the DCI system from experiencing fundamental failures?
HVACs can be laid out redundant as well. And of course it needs to be monitored IF it is a critical component.
- Carsten
Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-12-2010, 12:57 PM:
Moving the "how to kill a digital projector" part of this discussion here. Please make all further replies related to the murder of digital projection equipment at that link.
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