quote:

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Well, if we do talk 'fundamental', then why should we assume a HVAC to fail guaranteed, but not a projector?

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quote: Mark Gulbrandsen

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There is a new 16 plex going up in SAC that will put the 16 BARCO projectors in cubes and on lifts right in the auditorium. Talk about servicing nightmare! I can't imagine anything worse than this.

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I heard about that. And of course people are doing it because one guy did it and made a big stink about it in press releases...just like how AMC touted their HITS system so much that it fooled people into thinking this must be a good idea. All this accomplishes is the spread of ignorance. These people are making decisions based upon price, not what it will cost them...because after all few people these days are smart enough to look into the future more than about a week ahead.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-12-2010, 04:46 PM:
 
I couldn't agree more Brad! I had heard of someone down in the south east also doing this a couple of years ago and thought it was a localized one time incident. Sadly thats not so. The auditorium has to be the worst place there can be to mount a projector... period. I would never even be interested in doing service work at a place like that. Nightmare central for sure. Now those lifts and little cubes the projectors live in(excuse me)... will be dying in... also have cost a small bundle if they are properly designed. Any lift of any sort that's over the top of humans at all has to be certified to do just that. Just as it takes special certified rigging to fly a live person on a stage... these mounts had best be human rated and uber well insured. If anyone gets injured for any reason there will be lawsuits flying to no end.\

Now on to equipment... where is the dirtest place in an auditorium??? Behind a screen AND up in the ceiling typically. It can also be the hotest place in both the winter AND summer! I could go on about this. Fortunately, all of my customers are smarter than this....! Oops... this IS one of my customers .

Mark
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 10-12-2010, 05:19 PM:
 
Brad, I know a projector and server need a well defined climate.

I just doubt your fundamental statement that any HVAC will fail. It's a machine, just like a server or projector. And the technical complexity of a HVAC is lower than that of a server or projector. So why should I assume that a DCI system fails rarely, while a HVAC fails early?

I could say the same on UPS. Still they make sense.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-12-2010, 05:20 PM:
 
Good luck tweeking convergence there Mark!!! And remember, the suits don't care if you fall and break your spine and can never walk again. That's the insurance company's problem. Not having a booth sounds super cool in that press release AND (at least in the owner's minds) saves them MONEEEEEEYYY!!!!

Carsten - why are you making a big stink about something I never said? Tell me where I said a digital projector is more reliable than an HVAC system? I didn't. Fact of the matter though is that I have actually had far more failures of air conditioning than with the digital projectors. I can also state that that the failures of the HVAC systems has cost me 3 light engines in a 6 month period in those stupid little "sky closets" Mark and I are talking about.
 

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Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 10-12-2010, 05:44 PM:
 
I can again back up brad with the A/C failure being commonplace. Most theaters, esp the big chains, think that it is far cheaper to NOT have a maintenance contract on their HVAC equipment, so things like filters and belts get ignored. And WHEN the unit breaks, mostly due to lack on maintenance, the theater wants it fixed as quickly and cheaply as possible. So this often results in patches made on the equipment and old worn out equipment being fixed/patched instead of being replaced. Like most big companies its all about the bottom line at the end of the month. Who cares if we spend $5000.00 over the next 5 years if we save $100.00 today.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-12-2010, 06:03 PM:
 
Its because many people in this industry don't understand the concept of "cost of operation". Using Jake's example, if they can cut a corner to save $100 off of the bill today that will end up costing them $5000 in the long run, many corporate suits making these sort of decisions really DO think they are helping the company.

This is precisely why I laugh when I hear of people installing Sony systems. Setting aside the whole SDDS issue, their system is by far the most expensive to operate on an hourly, daily, weekly, monthly or even yearly basis. Similary NEC projectors are much more expensive to operate than a comparable Christie model. Even if the Christie cost $5000 more than the NEC, that money will be saved very quickly making Christie the projector that is actually not only the cheaper product to buy, but also the smarter product to buy. Some people just can't do the basic math.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-12-2010, 08:22 PM:
 
I wish I could agree with that math you have going there Brad. So far that has not prooved itself to be true in the cases I have them installed in. There are several new lamps out for the NEC's as well as a much less expensive(than other manufacturers) extended warranty available for them. Like all other projectors you can also use regular cinema lamps for 2-D. And the extended warranty does not have to be purchased and decided upon when you purchase the projector(s). So far my problems with them have been zero. You can go on and on about the other projectors however like it or not each one has it's place on the map...

Mark
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-12-2010, 08:51 PM:
 
When I have the chance to dig it all out I'll start a fresh thread and post the math publicly Mark. If something has changed or is incorrect, corrections can then be made. Sadly it seems many people are buying their digital projection equipment based upon how good the salesman is with his tongue fucking skills.

By that comment I am referring to how believable he can make his bullshit math appear to the victim/buyer. As an example, every projector out there can't by definition be the lowest cost to operate in the same scenario. There can be only one.
 

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Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 10-12-2010, 09:36 PM:
 
The theatre that we are working on installing right now (it's our first week here) is using a small enclosure designed to fit a specific brand of D cinema machine. The enclosure is designed and built by an elevator company. The box has a track that it rides on and can be lowered down for service when it's not jammed up against the auditorium drop ceiling. We will have an umbilical cable that rides up and down, just like an elevator would. I'll try and get some pictures if I can.
 

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Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 10-12-2010, 10:38 PM:
 
What sort of cooling does the box provide? Can the audience hear the projector, or is the box soundproof? Is the rig susceptible to movement during heavy action scenes on a truly good sound system that would show up on screen? I am assuming the projector has to be lowered to the ground before any sort of maintenance or adjustments can be made?
 

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Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 10-13-2010, 01:13 AM:
 
As far as I know the box does have some soudproofing built in, but I guess we'll see how loud it is once it's fired up. The only cooling that I'm aware of is the typical exhuast ducting out the top. I get the distinct impression that the box will just passively pull air in from the auditorium. There really is something to be said about having a dedicated projection booth.
 

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Posted by Joe Redifer (Member # 3) on 10-13-2010, 01:30 AM:
 
This is not tremendously relevant to the main discussion, but the Sony projectors are just awful. The 4K bulbs need to be changed out at around 550 hours and they are super-dim to begin with. The user interface is also crap compared to the Christies. I feel sorry for anyone who buys these pieces of shit. They have no right to exist.
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-13-2010, 01:33 AM:
 
(ah, c'on Joe, You don't like that you have to build two playlists - a sub and a master - to get a show on the screen ??)
 

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-13-2010, 06:58 AM:
 
Brad we all know that the lowest cost of operation lies in the Barco projectors. You can claim whatever you wish about the dreaded Christie.
Demetris
 

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Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 10-13-2010, 09:39 AM:
 
Hey Joe, I think they pretty much give them away

and then when they break, charge an arm and a leg.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-13-2010, 10:46 AM:
 
Brad... Sure, please post the math when you get a chance. You might find it interesting to note however that two of the NEC systems I have installed have been for CPA's that also own theaters and they dilligently checked out all the available systems before going with the NEC. I also like to factor in power cost if at all possible since that seems to vary widely at different locations. POwer consumption si certainly lots less than an equivelent 35mm system! And on daily operating costs... power aside, alot of the daily cost depends on what kind of lamp deals you can get from the manufacturers and how much you sell them for.

The biggest issue I have is just with the mid size Christie. It just can't really do Dolby 3-D on a 35 foot 1.4 gain screen... even with the 3000SD lamp it struggles when it's right out of the box on a screen that large. However, it does fine with Real-D on that size screen, but who wants a silver screen... right! I con't tell you how many silvers we've hung since April... Lots!

The problem is that most of my customners that have single screens in the 150 to 200 seat count can't afford to loose saleable seats so Dolby 3-D is the only route for them to go. I've found that with the CDXL-30SD the projector can barely meet specs when the lamp is new and certainly will not over the 1000 hour warranty life of that lamp. You would have step up to the larger Christie projector to properly do the job and have the correct amount of light... I can do Dolby 3-D with the NC2000 and the standard 750 hour LTI 4kw lamp. We sell that lamp for less then the CDXL-30SD and it can keep things at spec over it's rated life span. Then as you know there are still two other Ushio 4kw lamps available, one with lower output and long 1500 hour life and one with even more light output than the LTI and 1000 hour life span, the same warranted hours as the CDXL-30.

While I'm not going to post actual projector pricing here I can tell you that we can sell the NC-2000 projector itself for about 7 grand less than the mid size other make. Oh and the lens is about 1/3 less expensive to. Extended warranty costs less $$$$ until you reach the last few years of the 10 year possible extension time and then it gets comparable in cost. Then there are far superior base options available for the NEC's. The Eprad bases have up to two built in racks as well as built in power distribution saving a gob of money on electrical work on new construction and even many times during a retrofit. I can go on but there is little point in attempting to say who is best and who is not. All the gear out there once you really get to know it has it's good points and bad points... but one thing that appears to hold true is that you may very well have the same reliability out of any of the 3 DLP companies equipment. That is one the one area I don't think one company excells the other in. These are all really T.I. designs and built to T.I. specs... they are all going to be reliable.

Mark
 

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Posted by Demetris Thoupis (Member # 833) on 10-13-2010, 10:54 AM:
 
The thing I personally fear most is if the DLP chips prove in a few years to have a continuous fail rate since all DLP chips are made by TI. Who guarantees that the chips will keep working flawlessly after thousands of hours in operation?
Demetris
 

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Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 10-13-2010, 10:59 AM:
 
Mark i question how 35mm consumes more electricity than digital
digital always has a larger lamp and the rectifiers if modern are just as efficient and the server and ligt engine draw as much or more than a 1/4hp motor
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 10-13-2010, 12:55 PM:
 
It typically doesn't take any larger lamp to do 2-D than the existing 35mm lamp. On power savings... the platter definately is out of the picture. My experience has shown that digital projector rectifiers are far more efficient than iron core rectifiers of a similar capacity... even brand new ones. Some rectifiers such as kniesley's are power hogs.

quote: Demetris Thoupis

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The thing I personally fear most is if the DLP chips prove in a few years to have a continuous fail rate since all DLP chips are made by TI.

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quote: Brad Miller

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Some people just can't do the basic math.

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That's SO true...
 

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Posted by Jason Burroughs (Member # 68) on 10-13-2010, 06:24 PM:
 
Aside from lamp sizing, there's no practical way that a digital system consumes less electricity!

Yes you delete the projector motor, and platter, but honestly neither of these have a significant draw. The platter system would be ~400Watts max, and similar for the projector motor.

On the digital side you also have to include the server, at the tune of about 500Watts, and all the other ancillary equipment to deliver the content.

The projector and platter only consume power "on demand" and the server and its equipment consumes power 24xForever

Also the HVAC system shouldn't ever be turned off with digital, whereas with film it could be during the off hours.

On the discussion of failure of HVAC vs failure of any projection component, HVAC wins hands down.

Often the units installed are not continuous duty rated, and are installed in a uncontrolled environment. There's so much more to fail in a HVAC system, especially one not properly maintained.

HVAC failure can be mitigated by using monitoring systems and using failure prediction. Redundancy of systems is also another mitigation plan.

Any architect designing a space for digital equipment should fully understand ASHRAE TC9.9 and its specifications for Class 1 equipment.
 

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Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 10-15-2010, 11:24 AM:
 
Half of my booth is not currently air conditioned, and it really cooks back there. The half that is has 3 digi players in it, and since these klunkers suck more room air through them and blow it out on the roof than the replaced 35's by almost double, the booth AC system is having trouble keeping up. I predict the A/C system failure soon. We had a freon issue earlier this summer, and one of the Sony's told us that it was too hot to suit it, and the room temp never was over 80.

I know they are going to have to AC the back booth. Digital will be back there with fans so loud that I will hate being around them next year.

550 hour lamps. And I'm STILL the only one on the site that will replace one.

I can imagine the company enclosing the projectors in their own little climate controlled box. Its costing a fortune now just to stock lamps for these creatures!!
 

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Posted by Aaron Mehocic (Member # 15) on 10-16-2010, 02:23 PM:
 
During our first expansion in 1996 the architectual design was not to air condition the booth. That was corrected about two years later after countless complaints by the then-manager. Although we never lost any shows due to excessive heat, it was very difficult on the Dolby CP-500 units. Many times during show checks I would notice the LCD screens barely able to register the proper information because they were being zapped so bad by the ambient temperature.
 

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Posted by Tom Petrov (Member # 1534) on 10-16-2010, 11:52 PM:
 
Film is pretty much done in any new build. That is were it really matters, eventually the smaller theaters will go digital as well. Air conditioning or no air conditioning, it will happen.

As for theaters in India, they will play film for a lot longer.
 

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Posted by Joe Elliott (Member # 4006) on 10-18-2010, 12:47 AM:
 
Bruce, the enclosure thing may happen, but they wouldn't air condition it, just blow massive amounts of air into it. You would then have to enter the 'hurricane enclosure' to service the projector.
 

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Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 10-18-2010, 11:07 AM:
 
If the projector has a maximum ambient temp of say 90F and the booth is 105F then it doest really matter how much air you blow around it, You are still causing damage.
 

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Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 10-18-2010, 01:05 PM:
 
For what it's worth here, I have not noticed any significant change in our power bills since we digitized. I was expecting it to go up, since we went from a 2000W bulb to a 4000, but I guess maybe the platter not being in use has offset the difference.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 10-18-2010, 02:17 PM:
 
Mike,

I would attribute it to a more efficient lamp power supply. What were you using for a rectifier for your film lamphouse?
 

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Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 10-18-2010, 08:09 PM:
 
That rectifier in that CH-20 console is a major power hog along with being almost 30 plus years old.

- (only thing bad with a Christie recifier since they really draw the amperage to operate ..)

Also, the rectifier in the NEC is a very efficent switcher rectifier...prob why Mike's wattmeter outside of the building didn't show an increase in power used.
 

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Posted by Jake Spell (Member # 5294) on 10-18-2010, 10:09 PM:
 
I could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure that the lights,HVAC, exhaust fans, sound racks use enough power that the extra 2000 watts isn't going to be noticed on the power bill
 

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Posted by Randy Bowden (Member # 587) on 10-18-2010, 11:58 PM:
 
Here is a youtube vid for enclosure that I mentioned earlier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcg-nvJ9EB8

And another shot at Barco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T7aC1SzstA
 

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Posted by System Notices (Member # 2357) on 12-15-2011, 02:04 PM:
 

It has been 422 days since the last post.

 

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