Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Master Image VS. Real D

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Posted by Preston Drum (Member # 5903) on 11-17-2010, 11:19 AM:

We are planning on upgrading one of our houses to Digital with 3D capabilities. I have very little experience with Digital 3D and I am finding it difficult to advise the management partners on which 3D system to buy.

We will be installing a NEC 2000C with a NEC Zoom lens. We were quoted for a Master Image system but we have to buy it out right. Real D has no upfront cost but they take a cut of the ticket price and you are locked in for years.

Any opinions on Master Image or Real D? Thanks!

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-17-2010, 01:24 PM:

Welcome - you oughta look into Dolby Digital 3D which would work great with that NEC 2000.

Be the most cost effective move in the long run.

Good luck - Monte

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-17-2010, 01:30 PM:

Hi Preston and welcome to Film-Tech.

Personally and from my own experience, I would go with Master Image over Real D. I had big issues that were never resolved satisfactorily about our XD RealD system. Anything that was close up in the action just got lost as if it was unable to process it. The same shot in Master Image is great. Now, I only ever saw one RealD XD and that was mine and I believe it had issues. Perhaps other XD's were fine. I don't know but mine certainly didn't cut the mustard.

An added bonus is that you can just unplug these things and wheel it to another screen if you want...plus, of course and as you say, you own it outright whereas RealD want both your first and second child in their contracts. Seriously, those things kill three trees just for one contract.

Posted by David Favel (Member # 1125) on 11-17-2010, 08:52 PM:

Actually the choice for me is Xpand vs Dolby.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-17-2010, 09:14 PM:

Master image is WAY WAY WAY too over priced! It's a $6000.00 box... not $32,000.00! Geez, I could copy the data from the EPROM in there and build em myself for about 3K. I've worked with all the digital 3-D formats and still prefer Dolby over them all. BUt with Dolby you will be loosing about 60% of the light! The Dolby Wheel assy installation into the NEC 2000 is blazingly simple!

We recently had a Master Image filter wheel explode at one location which gave us second thoughts about their safety. Yes, it was one of the new type wheels with the green sticker! It sent shards of plastic 5 booths down as well as into the arm of the young lady that had just started the show. It ripped the safety cover over the wheel right off the motor! As a result of this we are replacing all the Master Image units with Real-D and to be honest everyone that was in attendance after the switch to Real-D completely agreed Real-D had a slightly sharper image hands down and I attribute that to the fact that on the Real-D you are projecting through coated glass on both sides of the Z screen. On the Master Image you are projecting through plastic. From a light standpoint both are about the same. The Real-D mount for the NEC 2000 is very slick... If you haev a deeply curved ascreen stick with the standard Real-D unit. Otherwise go for the high brightness unit. Installation time on the NEC-2000 for the standard Real-D is about an hour. Ditto for a Christie or Barco. Also... If you go with a GDC server it has built in Ghost Busting abilities that no other server seems to be able to do. So you can play non ghost busted content on it and not have any problem with ghosting what so ever. The GDC is by far the slickest server out there.

I have 4 Master Image units available and I'll make you a hell of a deal on one or all of them.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-18-2010, 01:44 AM:

While I absolutely agree with Mark on the cost of the Master Image being ridiculously high, I have yet to see Real-D ever best Master Image in image quality. Real-D ghosts, even when ghost busted...particularly if you are over-bright on the image when Master Image won't

Profit wise, even with the hefty price for the unit...if you do a cost analysis, your profit on a Master Image system versus Real-D will be higher after less than 2-years. That 50-cents/ticket adds up REAL fast. At just 100-tickets/day (average) for one year, you will pay Real-D over $18,250/year. So, by the second year, you will have spent more than Master Image...even if you have to replace a few discs. Real-D is typically a 10-year deal so its real cost is closer to $200,000/screen over 10-years. Master Image is closer to $4000/year over 10-years (factoring new discs at least once/year or more). It isn't really a close call...from a business stand point.

Now as to Real-D...unless you REALLY NEED THE LIGHT stay away from the XL version. It has a physical impossibility. It is trying to converge two identical images from separate vantage points...though only separated by about 6-inches, it makes it impossible to get perfect convergence in the vertical plane...which is highlighted by curved screens. You can get it close but ANY misconvergence comes off of resolution. With the standard Z-screen...there will not be any problems...it is the fastest install, though the flimsyest. Also, on the XL version...you better have a TALL port to get the top image out.

And Mark was generous on the Dolby light loss. Dolby is 10% efficient (you lose 90% of your starting light) by the time you measure through the glasses. In fact, depending on color correction, I've had it down to a mere 8%. Real-D is about 15% as is Master Image. Xpan-D is closer to 18% (nothing is in front of the lens or in the light path except the glasses). Real-D XL is closer to 28% (rather impressive, actually, for light...but STAY AWAY if you can).

-Steve

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 11-18-2010, 03:55 AM:

Oh here we go on the Mark exploding wheel crap again.

Yeah yeah its probably 2 grand to build but you know what. Why shouldn't they charge 20k for a system considering on what competitors are charging?

Oh and you can't sell those 4 used units because your asking price is more than what I would pay for a new one.

Calling GDC a slick looking server! OMG you crack me up sometimes. You have to stop. My stomach hurts. Quick someone call Bill Gates and tell him that GDC managed to get a copy of Windows 3.1 and build an entire server based around the GUI!!

Why don't you just do the right thing and sell them for 6k and set a good example for the other manufacturers [beer]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-18-2010, 04:19 AM:

..at least Mark is thinking about safety.

If I owned a theatre, I wouldn't want a device of any sorts that could have that potiental of physical harm (let alone facing lawsuits that would follow such an incident) to any of my employees no matter if that device is superior than to the next device.

Thus Brandon, when a disc blows apart and maybe similar situations might happen in your complex, please let us know on the outcome of your experiences.

I'd rather have a GDC than a Doremi - more user friendly.

-Monte

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 11-18-2010, 04:40 AM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
I'd rather have a GDC than a Doremi - more user friendly.

Dammit. I can't even argue that comment!

Posted by Preston Drum (Member # 5903) on 11-18-2010, 08:29 AM:

Thanks for your thoughts.

Sounds like Master Image will reap a better return on ticket gross- which of course drives most theatre owners’ decision making.

The exploding wheel is kind of freaky, but I'm sure it was a fluke? Right? Did you report the issue to the manufacturer? Did you get any comment back about the incident?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-18-2010, 08:58 AM:

To be fair, Mark is selling them (probably for an end user) at about $10K below new prices (USA pricing). So it isn't exactly stealing to offer used at 30% off. It wouldn't surprise me if the price reflects what the company paid for them versus what they have made off of them. The fact that you won't pay above $20K fuels more to Mark's point about the units themselves being over priced for what they are.

I have heard about exploding discs though I have not had one explode yet...I can certainly believe it...those things are bookin' when they are in show mode! I am surprised that they don't have some really good glass to cover the portion where the light enters/exits the top of the wheel...it would probably help with keeping dust out too. That would cut WAY down on the possibility of the wheel parts exiting the shroud.

If you are paying for glasses...Dolby 3D remains the cheapest, if you can do a good job of reclaiming them. If glasses are free, then Master Image wins but as Dolby's glasses prices keep getting lower...that gap is closing. Dolby's system has no consumable (though they have damagable) parts... Master Image's wheel does need to be changed periodically...depending on your environment. If you are concerned about technical quality...then Dolby and XpanD are the best as they use a white screen that won't over saturate colors and also provide a more uniform experience for all.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-18-2010, 09:00 AM:

Actually Master Image had little to say about the wheel explosion since the unit was out of warranty. They did send us a new sensor at n/c. I know of three that have done this now in my service area. Fortunately none that I had installed or sold. No injuries on the other two because it was well into the show and no one standing near it. Still a hell of a mess to clean up because it throws pieces of wheel clear into the next county. A new wheel is about 500USD. The way the plastic wheel is secures to the hub is uber retarted! Screw heads placed directly onto the plastic and tourqued to 12 inch pounds. There should be a metal disk over the plastic wheel and then the screws tourqued to 12 inch pounds against the metal disk. These things are so cheaply built!
On the other hand I also lost a Dolby 3-D wheel from a 6kw lamp explosion in a Christie CP-2000 a couple of years back. A glass shard fomr the lamp went right through the heat filter. The repairs to get that projector back on screen were 22K USD. Christie did end up covering that since the lamp had ONLY gone 14 hours over it's rated warranty and Christie specifies a typical 1000 hour life span for the CDXL-60.

@ Steve.... I think you'll find that with the Ghost busting software turned on in the GDC plus a Ghostbusted print there isn't going to be any ghosting. I didn't see any on the last two installs running @ 6fl. Megamind content was ghostbusted... but Avatar content was not. Neither had any hint of any ghosting at that light level. Screens were brand new Severtson and properly curved for the room by Franklin.

@ Brendan... You need to pull your head out of your ass. You come across as a total iddiott. Your customers probably read these forums too. Please contribute something useful in future posts [thumbsup]

.

@ Preston... Seriously consider Dolby 3-D if your screen is within what the NC-2000 can do. I have two systems of lately that are Dolby 3-D and the screens are 30 and 35 feet wide respectively. The NC-2000 works wekk with Dolby 3-D up to about that size. Both screens are 1.4 gain.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-18-2010, 12:07 PM:

The "current" MasterImage disc is held on by screws and flat washers (possibly thrust washers...that is what they should be though I like Mark's ring idea better...gives it that Norelco/Kinoton touch).

As for ghosting...I've seen it on most all Real-D...including ghost busted version...sure it is much reduced but not gone. As for 6fL...are you measuring in the center? If so...that isn't really over bright as that is only 6fL in ONE spot. The vast majority is less...though with a curved screen it will be a bit better distributed. Then again, it depends on your curve...by proper, how did he do it?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-18-2010, 01:18 PM:

He most likeley follows reccomended curve calculations for D-Cinema as per Harkness Hall. Most follow their guidelines for D-Cinema screen curvature now. It is a much shallower reccomended curve for D-Cinema vs. what one might do for filum. There is a trade off on pixel loss along the curve vs. light fall off at the sides on a silver sheet and one has to be very careful when calculating this so both are not extreme. He did a pretty good job on the curve radius. DMD screen file masking was very minimal all the way around when I got done. On the sides and top just 5 to 8 pixels... more on the bottom curve but not more than 30 pixels at the worst point in the curve. And that is dam little loss! Projection down angle was only about 2 degrees!!

I am pretty sure that Harkness Hall came up with the doo-doo for D-Cinema curve. Bobby may have his own method to calculate it, you'd have to ask him. I don't know anyone else that builds and installs as many screen frames as he does. Not even Mulone. When we ordered the frames I discussed this with him and he said he had that all worked out and the curve was based on throw and room size. As it tirns out light distribution was actually quite good across the spread of the screen but of course there was considerable fall off in light level in the three front rows. They are just 200 seat rooms, Screen width 36 feet, throw about 72'. Stadium in back and 4 front rows on a slight slope in front of the stadium.

I guess you need to try Real-D on a GDC server. No one has seen any hint of ghosting at standard light levels. One would have certainly seen it in Avatar as it was a non-ghost busted print!

Mark

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-18-2010, 03:23 PM:

Mark, are you sure that only GCD offers ghostbusting capabilities? According to RealD instructions Dolby, Doremi, Qube, Sony and Kodak servers support it.

http://www.reald.com/3deqinstructions/

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-18-2010, 04:22 PM:

I believe that he is implying that only GDC's works.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
If you go with a GDC server it has built in Ghost Busting abilities that no other server seems to be able to do.

I can attest that on a Dolby server, it only seems to work so-so. I do wish that Dolby would come up with a "hot button" for setting it the Real-D mode rather than having to key in everything by hand (or use a Saved file).

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-18-2010, 07:59 PM:

Actually the prints are supposed to be ghost busted. I can't say for the others but the GDC has a key you need to get from them to turn on the 3-D feature and this key includes ancillary Ghost Busting. I believe there is even a box to check Ghost Busting next to the 3-D window. I'll have to have a look see at it agina... I'll take a pix of that page on the server. Perhaps the other servers have it too... but it actually seems to work here as does everything on the server. No visible ghosts even when running a non ghost busted print... Avatar.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-19-2010, 06:18 AM:

Mark,

Actually, it is the opposite...no DCPs are ghostbusted anymore. Only Real-D needed it and the industry did not want to dual inventory even DCPs...hence Real-D had to come up with a means to ghost bust in the server.

In the case of Dolby, they use the Dolby 3D processing but set all of the colors to perfect (no color correction or illumination balancing) and then change the negative coefficient to -.02 to ghost bust.

Since GDC (and others) also have the ability to do this (with GDC they have keys to turn on features, like Dolby 3D or ghostbusting)...that is how you activate it with them. I do not know if GDC does more than add in negative coefficients (adding a bit of negative of the "other eye" to subtract it off. They might.

Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-19-2010, 06:32 PM:

I will find out next week. What ever they are doing it would have to have Real-D's blessing. I suspect there is more going on than meets the eye...

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-20-2010, 07:15 AM:

I thought that the 3D ghostbusting was a Real-D patented procedure, I thought that server manufacturers were just implementing it.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 11-20-2010, 08:17 AM:

What would the effect be if a ghostbusted DCP is played on a system that does not need ghostbusted?

Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 11-20-2010, 10:38 AM:

Mark, none whatsoever. Not so long back, before ghostbusting was done in server, one of Dolbys 3D selling points was that it would work quite happily with a GB or non GB DCP.

I suppose in theory you'd have less crosstalk, but on systems where you can't see the crosstalk if they're setup properly anyway, who's going to know?

Posted by Marco Giustini (Member # 4544) on 11-20-2010, 12:14 PM:

You should have inverse crosstalk i reckon.

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 11-20-2010, 09:08 PM:

According to Mark (the 2009 version) Master Image is the best 3d system out there and blows the rest right out of the water....

quote:
How does it compare to other 3-D systems??? I have to completely take back what I said in my post above... This is NOT EQUAL to other single projector 3-D systems... it is FAR SUPERIOR... Simply put, this is THE BEST single projector 3-D I have seen to date and also the brightest. We acheived 5.7 fl with just a 4kw cinema type lamp (not a short gap) running at about 80%. I know there are downsides to Silver Screens which this system does require but the upside of the super high quality 3-D easily makes for putting up with the silver suurface. We hung a new type Hurley "washable" silver screen at this location in preperation for this install late last year. This screen has been tested by Master Image's technical staff whom themselves are involved with testing every toher 3-D system out there for DCIP.. in short they are way overqualified to do this sort of testing. Their conclusion was very positive and even Coke spills on this screen won't damage it's surface.

So combine the new Hurley Washable Silver Surface with the Master Image 3-D system in front of a full frame triple flash projector and you'd have one killer 3-D system that easily knocks the socks off the rest of em. This one certainly does.

Unlike you Mark I;m just a tech and don't run a company so my opinions arn't manipulated by what you are currently selling..

Irony.. Someone who calls someone else an idiot but spells the word iddiott. Its irony on a base level...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-21-2010, 06:15 PM:

Brendan...

My position WHEN the M.I. units went in was the same as yours... I was a tech working for another dealer. I since left that dealer and went on my own. And don't forget... the Real-D units are not sold by anyone.
Although it's image quality is still among the very best I don't want to want to put ANY theater personel at high risk just to run 3-D movies. As a result I can no longer advocate installing the Master Image unit. It is an extremely dangerous piece of equipment. Simple as that... In situations where there is enough light or where the cinema owner wants to own the equipment then it will be Dolby 3-D.

Mark

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 11-22-2010, 05:57 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
It sent shards of plastic 5 booths down as well as into the arm of the young lady that had just started the show.

Mark can you please tell us the location of this and the young lady's name who was injured. If this is as you say, its quite a serious matter and my boss has asked me to gather more information so he can investigate.

It is quite astounding that the lady did not file suit?

Thanks.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-22-2010, 07:15 PM:

I doubt that Mark would ever expose that detailed information of what happened and the outcome due to privacy and legal matters.

Your boss must respect these testimonies quoted by Mark and simply opt to go to other methods of 3D presentations.

And if he opts to go with Master Image, I'd find another form of occupation or another cinema to find place your occupation with since the matter of safety doesn't seem important to your present employer since he isn't confident with what Mark is explaining to the 3D world on the Master Image system.

(prob how the disc broke was due to harmonic vibrations in the disc itself during rotation. And without no outer harmonic balancer ring mounted on the outside to remove the vibrations, it finally let go at the weakest point and that would be where it's held down onto the shaft. Same goes on car motors with the harmonic balancer on the pulley: to absorb vibrations in the crankshaft - and the same results if the vibrations are not contained...total crank destruction.)

-Monte

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-22-2010, 07:52 PM:

Monte,

With all due respect to you and Mark, I could say on this forum that a Kinoton I know of in Melbourne suddenly started to shake uncontrollably during a screening and fell over narrowly missing a helpless projectionist but shards of sprocket residue were embedded in his right testicle.

According to you, I need provide no proof to that claim. It is just fact?

Now Mark may well be speaking the truth here, but it's not like he doesn't have history of back-flipping in his opinion on here every few weeks and embellishing his stories to make a point.

I believe Brendan (and everyone else running Master Image units) deserve to hear the story from the source and not just from one person in this big, wide world. If it turns out to be true then that's a major issue. If not, then Master Image would quite rightfully be pretty peeved about this coming up on this forum.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-22-2010, 09:14 PM:

I can say the incident happened in St. George,Utah. Beyond that it is up to the theater owner to give me permission to post the theater name. I will not post the young ladies name without her permission and at this point that does not really matter much as she is ok. Fact is the wheel exploded, fact is we found wheel remnants up to 100 feet from the actual unit, fact is that the force of the exploding wheel ripped the filter wheel housing right off the motor and destroyed the positioning sensor in the process. Although the unit is out of warranty M.I. sent out a sensor at N/C but wanted 3K USD for a new top assembly. I will simply re-tap out the holes for the next larger screws. The force literally pulled the threads right out of the metal. What I will do in the next day or two is to post photos of what is left of the filter wheel and other damages to the unit. With all my claims of exploding wheels I believe that it is certainly fair that you all get to see the remnants and damage. We did gather up as many pieces of the filter wheel as we could just in case a lawsuit occured from the incident. The young lady is ok and there won't be a lawsuit far as I know. I have heard of several other filter wheels doing this but only with the older style filter wheels (no green sticker). Stay tuned... the unit is at the shop and I will be there tomorrow or Wednesday and take photos.

Posted by Brendan Penny (Member # 5041) on 11-22-2010, 09:20 PM:

Yes Monte I am taking this serious but something is wrong here.

I find it very interesting that this occurred without one of the two things happening.

1) The young lady sued master image into the next decade
2) master image released an engineering kit to make the unit safer.

I want to know what the green sticker represents in the eyes of MI.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-22-2010, 09:38 PM:

Brendan...

1. The young lady was obviously not injured so bad that a lawsuit occured and not everyone feels a need to take someone to the cleaners because of an accident. She pulled the pieces out of her arm and that was the last that I heard of it.

2. The green sticker represents the latest type of wheel as far as I am aware. If it is not then M.I. needs to have a plan in place to notify each and every theater DIRECTLY of a method to verify that the latest wheel IS indeed in place without waiting for a service entity to magically appear and check it. IMHO a green sticker is a pretty foolish way to mark a given version wheel, it could be engraved into the wheel with a vibrator engraver. The green sticker might not stick to the wheel!

3. I agree then M.I. needs to make these units safer!! The idea of putting screw heads with lock washers directly against the plastic wheel IMHO is a bad thing. The filter wheel housing is steel. The one on this unit is dented I just don't know how they can seal up that opening the light passes through so they are safer without causing a gob of light loss.

4. Lastly, I feel this board is the ideal situation to bring this to light(pun intended!). Someone else might have a brainsstorm to a simple solution. I still like the M.I. unit... it provides a super quality image on the screen.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-22-2010, 09:44 PM:

...and I bet that green sticker caused just enough off-balance to cause harmonic vibration to make it to come apart as it did.

On the lawsuit issue: Reminds me of a manager of an 6plex forcing the employee, who cut his head pretty badly on some unprotected ductwork in the booth, to get back to work and quit whining on his cut and bleeding.

The employee also did nothing towards a lawsuit, yet the ductwork was protected soon afterwards with foam padding ...

-Monte

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-23-2010, 01:12 AM:

I look forward to seeing the photos. MI had better be working on a solution to this.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-23-2010, 01:39 AM:

I don't have any direct contacts with Master Image, but anyone who is reading this that does, please ask them to register and post. I will push their registration though faster if they will email me.

Posted by Dick Vaughan (Member # 540) on 11-23-2010, 03:53 AM:

Brad
I've dropped a line to someone I know at Master Image to make him aware of this.

Dick

Posted by Richard Garbett (Member # 5658) on 11-23-2010, 07:27 PM:

Hello,

Just a short note from masterImage to make clear our response to this situation.

First and foremost we regret that a customer has had a negative experience with our product. We strive to make every theatre’s and every patron’s exposure to masterImage positive and of course safety is a top priority.

We have been working with the customer directly and plan a site visit shortly to research the incident fully and bring the system (which is in fact under warranty) up to specification. It appears that through a series of miscommunications an obsolete filter disc was used recreating a problem that had been fixed over a year ago. The system must perform as intended and our goal is a satisfied customer.

We appreciate feedback from this forum, even when it calls our attention to areas where R & D may be required. This is how we improve.

Richard Garbett

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-23-2010, 07:31 PM:

Hi Richard

Thanks for adding the status of MI's knowledge about this. We've not had our MI units for too long so are hopefully using the new discs, but what is it about the old discs and the new that differentiates them? What is on the new disc so we can be sure we have the correct ones installed?

Posted by Richard Garbett (Member # 5658) on 11-23-2010, 07:55 PM:

Hi John,

For easy, quick identification the new discs carry a small green sticker with the letters PC-OK to indicate they are manufactured from polycarbonate material they also have the part number PFDRC370-01 in white lettering on the disc along with a serial number.

All new systems shipped within the past 12 months have these newer discs fitted.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 11-24-2010, 02:21 AM:

quote: Richard Garbett
from polycarbonate material

..basically the same material that CD's and motorcycle helmets are made from?

Thx on this ... and good luck as always.

-Monte

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-24-2010, 10:57 AM:

We have a similar report of a MasterImage wheel bursting into pieces during operation in a german cinema.
They cleaned up the mess, replaced it with the spare wheel that came with the installation and continued the show. No one was injured this time.

So, yes, it does happen. Wether it qualifies for a 'real' Problem, I don't know. Our 35mm booth has some dangerous rotating gear as well.

It may well be that MI offers superior 3D quality compared to RealD.
But some of the technical issues around it can not really be called superior - construction, cleaning schedules, etc.,

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-24-2010, 11:15 AM:

I had a talk yesterday with Paul Panaway of Master Image. He did confirm the unit was still under warranty... something the city manager for the chain had been told otherwise. Paul will be sending out a new top end to replace the damaged one at no charge. I can install it... or he can... what ever. We did come to the conclusion that at some point the new style disk (of which I just happen to have a video of it being installed on this very machine) was probably burned by someone failing to turn on the M.I. unit before starting a presentation. It doesn't take long to burn the filter wheel at it's stopped point! Paul speculates and it makes sense that someone put one of the old disks back on the unit so they could continue running that day and no one was ever told about it. There WAS very definately a new spare polycarbonate disk with a green sticker in the booth as well. I speculate someone trying to cover things up or what ever... However... in this case the old disk or disks should have been discarded when they were removed but were not!! Why they were left in the booth by either the past dealer or by the now past southern technician no one knows. The other issue this unit had that several of us noticed was that the hub had some run out to it, this caused the disk to wobble and an ensuing vibration. The past technician had discussed this with Richard but the tech never followed through to have a new top end sent out. Just one reason he is the past technician and the past dealer is now the past dealer! This unit has since been replaced with a Real-D attachment at the request of the theater owner for something more fool proof.

As I mentioned to Paul... several things still have me scratching my head.

1. I still have to wonder wonder how much actual engineering went into the design of this unit? IMHO Uncle Rube had nmore to do with it than anyone else... if it has been well engineered from the get go then the acrylic wheels would have never made it to a theater and this incident would have never happened.

2. Some better clamping system to secure the disk to the hub. On all the units in this chain they are merely screw heads with lock washers. Any three year old knows that you don't place a lockwasher or screw head directly on thin plastic and then torque it down as M.I. specs call for!! Paul did inform me however that this has been changed to now including flatwashers with the screw and lockwasher and he will send me several sets to replace all the existing screws on other units. But I say how about doing this one better and doing it right to begin with... A tech is not necessarily going to be the one replacing this disk. The theater manager, or booth manager is PROBABLY NOT going to have the proper torque screw driver that M.I requires. A more certain way needs to be brought out to secure the disk... something like a round metal plate that acts as a clamp over the disk and is secured down by the screws. Paul mentioned he thought that just this sort of thing was stuck somewhere in engineering and he would check.

3. Notify all theater locations either by e-mail or USPS when there is any sort of update that should be done to the unit(s), especially any pertaining to the safety of the operating personel. Any Manager worth his spit is going to be quick at ensuring he has zero down time on his 3-D screens.

4. This is 2010, not 1910! What about auto start of the wheel to prevent the filter disk from being burnt? This is pathetically easy to do on any of these units and something I will do once the units are out of warranty if M.I. doesn't come up with some sort of retrofit. All one has to do is wire across the start switch in the unit to a spare set of contacts in the NA-10, CA-21, eCNA-10, etc. automation. Why was there never a terminal strip or jack on the side of the unit to facilitate hooking this up?

This is my list... IMHO the units and company still have a way to go to get there but the communication I have had so far with Paul has been positive(as have been past experiences with paul)... lets see what if anything comes out of it.

Addendum: Due to the bad weather here I did not get pictures yesterday. However I do have one from when I had to repair work to the lens the next day. This incident did some major damage to the barrel of the lens and it would no longer zoom. Luckily no damage was done to the front glass element. I was able to repair the barrel although it took considerable time... and the lens is now working perfectly again.

At this point since M.I. is going to take care of this under warranty other pictures are not really necessary.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 11-24-2010, 11:35 AM:

Yes they are necessary Mark. If you are going to come on here and make a huge stink about something claiming you have pictures of this disaster, back it up.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-24-2010, 12:07 PM:

I'll still be more then happy to post them although I don't feel it necessary since M.I. has completely acknowledged the incident here.. The photo above is one of them. When I get over to the shop I'll take pics of the damage to the wheel and the unit but that isn't going to happen today. Oh... and where did I claim to already have pictures... I said I can go take pictures of the stuff.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-24-2010, 01:10 PM:

Please note...the MI unit does have an idle speed for when sync is lost as well as the running speed...so there is no need for the disc to be burnt via douser. Now, if you are going to turn the disc off (manually) then you are going to have problems with user error.

MI has address the subject of automating the unit, somewhat. The current unit (the only one I'm familiar with) has a set of automation terminals. It provides for raising/lowering starting and stopping the disc. We have programmed it into an eCNA-200 (same programming applies to eCNA-10 and eCNA-5) to automate the positioning and operating of the MI. As such, it is more automated than most Real-Ds since NO user intervention is required. All of our Show Start 2D cues lower the unit, all of our Show Start 3D cues raise the unit and start the disc.

I wish the unit had discrete start and stop commands rather than a toggle...too easy for things to get out of sync and it is a needless situation.

For the record...we have had one disc that was not properly balanced and it shook the unit pretty good but it did not destroy. I don't know what MI does to balance the discs but at the speeds they are turning, it doesn't take much to get one out of balance.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-24-2010, 04:21 PM:

Steve...

It's only the first show of the day that actually matters. The booths get powered up by perhaps the manager and then some one else arrives at work and starts the show... if they do not know to put the unit in run, even slow standby mode... or if they forget... then the disk gets burnt. There is also a new version 2.2 firmware that will be installed in these units as well in the next few weeks. They're good units... and it sounds like they have done some work towards doing what should have been done in the first place.

The unit here had ~.05 run out on the actual face of the hub before the disk exploded. Now that run out is almost zero... go figure. It's been knocked back into alignment!! You can imagine how voiolent the explosion of that wheel was to dent the lens barrel the way it did.

Mark

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-24-2010, 04:39 PM:

So Master Image have sent out the new wheels with every new unit for 12 months. The cinema replaced a new version of the wheel with an old, used and super-ceded version of the wheel and it exploded. No winder she didn't sue MI, but I'll bet there's a case there for something against the cinema operators.

I think the only real ongoing concern is that all MI owners and operators are informed of the need to change to the new wheel if that hasn't happened already and that MI should replace the old wheels free of charge to those cinemas still running them and warn them to destroy the old ones.

Perhaps that's already been done.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-24-2010, 05:17 PM:

Believe it or not...my original reason for automating it was to get the wheel to stop completely as well as take the human factor out of it. With the wheel spinning...even in idle it is still a dirt collector.

I would also love having an automatic cleaning mechanism...a special mode that would slow the disc WAY down and have a set of cat wiskers that came in and lightly knocked the dust off.

-Steve

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-24-2010, 05:28 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
I would also love having an automatic cleaning mechanism...a special mode that would slow the disc WAY down and have a set of cat wiskers that came in and lightly knocked the dust off.

That would be a neat addition. Even a super slow 'jog' option would be great so you could do that yourself without disengaging the whole thing.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 11-24-2010, 06:19 PM:

Despite numerous and loud cautions about NOT cleaning the disc while it is spinning...and without admitting it...I have had to change a disc due to just that! The evidence was all over the place...the microfiber cloth looks like someone was using it to weld it was so burned...the disc was scratched pretty good too (concentric and spiraling scratches). I figure the cost of replacing the disc will be the ultimate teacher for them on that!

I only hope they don't get hurt before they really learn!

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-24-2010, 08:10 PM:

@ Steve...

Unfortunately most of the time is is more then just loose dirt... grime and grease also build up on the filters. Even in buildings with ventilated poppers. I suspect the same will happen over a much longer time period even with Dolby 3-D filter wheels.

@John...

More importantly the old Acrylic disks should be destroyed with a hammer even before they are discarded! Then there is no way they could make their way back into use. In this case it may have been put back on because it was the only one they could find laying around. The parts cabinet is kept locked up in that booth for very good reasons.

Mark

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 11-25-2010, 03:09 AM:

considering that several people at Master Image are ex Imax they might want to think about using the old antistatic bars or the static masters to remove the static buildup that attracts the dust in the first place

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 11-25-2010, 03:54 AM:

Gord, these things spin at such a high speed they MUST attract the dust and dirt. You can look at the beam and see the dust being sucked in to it.

That's why I'd like to know why there cannot be optical glass on either side of the image area. Solves two big issues I have with the units...having to clean the discs three times a week and not sucking the dust in in the first place.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-25-2010, 05:06 AM:

Everyone knows what this cleaning schedule means in real life - most systems are NOT cleaned often enough and suffer considerable image quality issues. And IF you clean them often enough, the wheels will also suffer from cleaning scratches.
So much for MIs superior 3D quality. They should send out new wheels every 2 months on a fixed schedule.

Another issue on RealD: A few mention the possibility to burn a MI disc when it is not rotating in front of the lens.

Thinking about a RealD Z-Screen that is never rotating, but positioned the same, do we expect it to last any longer? Does anyone know wether Z-Screens have already been replaced due to blinding issues? How do we measure and control 3D separation efficiency on the various systems to detect degradation? What about Dolby wheel aging and color fading (think about where the Dolby wheel is actually operating).
I would think that Dolby wheel color fading can be compensated to a certain amount by the projector color correction schemes during regular calibration intervals. But the stereo separation may still suffer - only that it is vastly higher on Dolby 3D in general than for RealD/MI and as such probably won't show in real life.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-25-2010, 10:17 AM:

Almost all original Z screens are still in use today. The few that are not are the result of site closures. Considering that you can hold your hand directly in front of a D-Cinema projector lens that is running a 6kw lamp shows how well filtered the light is. and it takes quite some time to burn a MI filter wheel. If a Z screen is installed properly the image passing through almost fills the entire screen. As a result any heat is well spread out. There is also a fan inside the Z screen to provide some extra cooling. Hopefully Dolby wheels won't fade... They are not supposed to. But ifthey do it's uber expensive to replace it.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-25-2010, 10:50 AM:

If anyone has a Z-Screen in operation for a longer time - would he please look at it without the projector running to see wether there is any segmenting/shadowing between inner parts usually lit and any outer parts not lit by the image?

Would be interesting to know if something is visible. This thing still eats a lot of light, it's physical or chemical structure is probably more complex than that of a MI filterpatch, so you would assume quite some aging.

Only that the area lit by the image on a Z-Screen typically is a lot larger than the area usually lit on an MI wheel (am I right there?), which would bring down the local energy density considerably.

But still, consider a 3D only screen running all day...

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-25-2010, 11:40 AM:

Yes, I am well aware... they all are doing it in the server to eliminate dual inventory. There are Dolby's, Doremi's and GDC's that I install and maintain.

The Z screen is just two LCD screens stacked. The advantage it may have over the plastic filter wheel is that it is encased in optically coated glass. If you watch the Z screen while it's processor boots up it does some wierd things rather quickly.

I've been happy with the results from both polarized systems. The Z screen is just lots more fool proof and very easy to keep clean. Dolby 3-Dee is still the best overall to go with if you can get the customer to front all the $$$$. Stacked 3-Dee is still the ultimate.

Mark

Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 11-27-2010, 04:22 AM:

Hi everyone,
I agree 100% with Mark about some people's agendas clouding their judgement. You read some articles and wonder why some projectionists make comments about equipment they didn't buy, but their theater's owners did, that seem in someway impact on their lives.
What really counts for me is what the punter thinks and I have never seen a forum where the punter is complaining about ghosting in a RealD presentation.I have never had acomplaint
All systems have their pros and cons, but in my view RealD has the advantage that it is their equipment and they replace it if it fails at no cost to me...does any other system after warranty provide this ?
RealD also provide web content,lobby posters for free, and soon exclusive content for RealD customers such as Carmen 3D which opens other markets. My arthouse competitors either don't have RealD or no 3D at all.

Cheers,

David

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 11-27-2010, 08:45 AM:

'Ghosting' is something the average punter is not explicitly aware of. Like a lot of other aspects in 35mm oder digital presentation. Yet projectionists and buying owners should have an eye on these things.

Few people have ever complained about classical 2D projection making them feel sick. 3D on the other hand is constantly under fire. One should make sure that your own theatre is not part of the 'bad 3D experience' lot. Not that I say RealD gives bad 3D experience. But given the high profile of DCI specifications and calibration, 3D systems are currently installed mostly without proper QC. Who has ever seen a channel separation measurement after an install?

We have recently learned that a certain common antireflection coating on portglas reduces polarization efficiency considerably.
Screen properties for polarized screens?
Just too many variables in my opinion.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 11-27-2010, 11:35 AM:

quote: Carsten Kurz
Just too many variables in my opinion.

Think Dolby 3-D!

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 11-27-2010, 11:35 AM:

1) Not having a complaint doesn't mean not having a problem. Lots of people simply don't complain even when there's a noticeable problem.
2) If I go to your theater a few times and then to another a few times, I decide which one I like better. I don't neccesarily decide based on which one I complained about the most.
3) I used to work at a location that had RealD and for a while I worked there and for my current employer that has a Dolby 3D house. So I compared the image of the two watching the same movie and the Dolby unit was significantly better.

Posted by Jon P. Inghram (Member # 4125) on 11-27-2010, 04:03 PM:

I believe the Dolby color wheel use dichoric filters, which means they shouldn't fade at all.

And I'm amazed anyone would actually try to clean a MI disk while it's running... I found them quite disturbing to even stand near while running at full speed.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 12-07-2010, 08:30 PM:

A final note on this incident. Richard from Master Image came to my shop today and installed a brand new top end on the unit. All is now well with it and we plan to put the unit back into service at a new digital location for Tron. We also concluded that there were still brand new old style filter wheels at the old location the disk blew up at and that one of those was installed on this unit for what ever reason and then it ultimately exploded. There was still another brand new old style filter wheel in the package along with a new style green labeled filter wheel that I grabbed when I took the unit up here to Salt Lake City. At any rate those working at the location damaged a wheel and installed one of the new but old style filter wheels. The extra old style was broken up and discarded.

Mark