Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Need advice on 3D system to choose!

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Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-11-2011, 07:01 PM:

Hello.

This is my first post.
I work in a movie theater in lisbon and we are about to upgrade ou digital projection and we need to think 3D.

Screen. White Matte 1.4
15meter wide by 6metrs high
Projection distance 31 meters

I´m having problems choosing the 3D system.

As far has projectors go i´m thinking either Christie CP2230 or the Barco DP2K-32B.

Have a sailsman trying to fix me with barco DP2K-23B with the dolby 3D system, but i think this is noto good enough for the screen size.

in the other side i have another one who says i need a active 3D sistem with the Christie CP2230.

I suspect one is not enough and the other is to much.

Right now i´m using an old Barco DP-90 with a Doremi dcp 2000.
It works but so dark, you se why we need to upgrade.

Thank you

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-11-2011, 07:46 PM:

Both Christie and Barco models you mention will produce enough light for Dolby 3D if you use the largest bulb; 6,000 Watts if I recall.

Have the dealer do an estimate on maximum 2D light output. Hopefully, it comes out to 50 or more FL. Figure 10% efficiency for Dolby 3D to be on the safe side and you will have 5 FL which is a good starting # so you have room for the bulb to age, the screen to darken, etc,.

You could go to a 1.8 gain screen to improve the light to the audience.

The active glasses work well but the glasses are still quite expensive and battery powered.

The Dolby 3D system has the best quality IMHO, color-wise and the glasses are less expensive than ever before, now that the Cat. No. 832's are available.

Posted by Chase Pickett (Member # 5975) on 04-11-2011, 07:48 PM:

Could an option be a CP2230 with RealD XL? We have this set up, and I'm quite happy with the results. In my opinion, the Christie CP2230 has no equal for light efficiency. Well others come very close, but in my experience the Christie is the best.

Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-11-2011, 08:09 PM:

"The RealD Cinema System is the device of choice in cinema auditoriums under 45 ft in screen width."

The screen we have is 50ft. Could this be an issue?

Thanks again!

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 04-11-2011, 10:33 PM:

That quote from RealD's website is specifically talking about their standard system that uses the Z-Screen. If you look at the tab for the XL Cinema System, you'll notice they say it can be used with screens up to 80 feet wide.

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 04-12-2011, 02:48 AM:

Sorry but please forget RealD. When you sign with them it will cost you more in the end.

When you do want a passive system without dolby you can still go to master image (cheaper and no extra costs after you bought it).

But if you can, go with dolby.

I have a very pleasant memorie of the time we used that 3D system. As said before by others on this forum Dolby 3D is the best 3D on the market. You may just need to change your screen. The Barco will give more then enough light for your purpuse (ushio or osram 6500W bulb) but try to stay away from silver screens.

Another last remarque, activation or de activating the 3D option on the projector is just a matter of seconds (I do miss that now).

Take a look on this forum. There was a discussion over what were the actual costs of different 3D systems.

Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-12-2011, 07:05 AM:

The problem with the dolby, at least this is wht the dealer is saying, is that i need 45000 lumens to use it.

He sent me this christie calculator with all the numbers to prove to me that the only system good for me was the XpanD.
I just don´t want to be robed, cause the XpanD is realy expencive!!

And the dolby is very good price and doesn´t need the silver screen! I just have to be shure it wil do the job with the projectors i had in mind!

By the way, the projection throw is 101ft!! don´t i loose a lot of light there??

I should tell you we are not a comercial venue. we do mostly premiers and film festivals with directors and producers often present, so we need a good system. But we are also state funded, and right now there is no money.

Dificult balance i know, so you see wy i need independet advice!

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 04-12-2011, 10:13 AM:

You can go to 6500W with the 32B. The 1.2" DLP projectors seem to be more light efficient than the 0.9" ones and you get a lot of light out of a 32B!
I don't know what the Real-D licensing looks like in Europe, in N. America it's very popular but the glasses are free I think. The XL system is good for quite large screens, I don't think Master Image has a comparable product.
Dolby is excellent. No argument there. The glasses cost more than Real-D or master Image, you need a glasses washing system and staff to operate it plus some security to limit glasses loss.
XpanD is uses quite expensive glasses - you don't want ANY to walk away - and on top of the washing you have battery issues. My opinion of XpanD is that it's perfect for industry screening rooms where a silver or high gain screen is not desired (due to the degraded 2D image) and the clients are unlikely to steal the glasses... not so great for a commercial cinema.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-12-2011, 11:45 AM:

I agree with Dave above.

You need a second opinion on light calculations. I don't believe your dealer is taking your 1.4 gain screen into the equation. 1.8 would be better for Dolby.

Dolby offers many very attractive packages that include the glasses as part of the price. The latest glasses now sell at pretty low prices making it possible to get the price to good customers down to $13.00 or so.

Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-12-2011, 01:36 PM:

So i´m thinking cp2230 with the dolby 3D system.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-12-2011, 02:07 PM:

The Barco model you mentioned is very good as well and there are many Barco projectors close by as is the factory.

The Barco may come out a little less expensive as the Dolby 3D kit can be ordered as part of the projector.

Both are very good and each has its set of advantages.

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 04-12-2011, 03:39 PM:

quote: Fenando Caveira
By the way, the projection throw is 101ft!! don´t i loose a lot of light there??

For all intents and purposes, no. Other than some slight loss in longer focal length lenses, the throw is irrelevant in terms of amount of light needed. It is the screen size that matters.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 04-12-2011, 04:30 PM:

On this occasion only size matters! Screen size.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-12-2011, 04:31 PM:

Fenando: Try to find a Dolby 3D cinema in Portugal, Spain or France to judge yourself. It is true that Dolby is probably the best system as far as quality is concerned. But it will eat most of the light that your expensive 6kW bulb throws out. Your screen is not too large for it in general, I'd say though.

There is a cheaper and better alternative to XpanD - Volfoni. They have better glases, no licence cost - and you can even rent it for a start into 3D. If it works for you - keep the rental, or buy it. If it doesn't work, return it and make a new decision - you loose nothing.

Panavision makes another system similiar to Dolby 3D. It was said it is more light efficient than Dolby 3D. Some tests I read seem to suggest this is not the case, however. Their licensing is more or less the same as the other big players. Panavision is a big name, but they just started with their 3D system.

Anyway - there are more options than the three or four best known systems.

Look up Disneys list of approved 3D systems!

- Carsten

Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-12-2011, 05:04 PM:

by the way, the room sits 827 people witch makes the active system a very expencive option...

this is the disney list:

REAL D
DOLBY
MASTER IMAGE
XpanD
NESTRI
Eyes3Shut
IMAX 3D
3Din
Panastereo
3DGE by VOLFONI
Etoniq
3D Tech
Sony SRX-R320S
Panavision Digital 3D System
DepthQ
Hi-Shock

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-12-2011, 07:32 PM:

For Dolby 3D...you'd need a 2-projector system on that screen.

Presuming it is a 1.4 gain screen and allowing for 25% lamp decay over the life of the lamp...you'd need 60,358 lumens if you didn't use an anamorphic lens or 49,363 if you used an anamorphic lens.

If you have a 1.8 gain screen. you'd still need 47000 lumens for Scope (no anamorphic or 38,394 with an anamorphic). With a 1.8, you'd finally hit 5.0 fL on FLAT, however with a DP2K-32B running a 6.5K lamp.

If you go with a 2-projector solution, you can drop those lumen requirements by OVER half (no dark time).

Going to a 2.2 gain white...and using an anamorphic you would just barely have scope with good light BUT...with ALL of these gain screens, you only hit the light in the CENTER of the screen...everywhere else is notably darker...the higher the gain, the worse the result. You can curve the screen to significantly widen the hot spot BUT you will then start cropping many pixels at the top and or bottom center of the image as the barrel distortion grows.

So...2 projector remains the best Dolby solution for your venue. When running 2D, alternate projectors (only one needed at a time) to keep the hours similar.

Steve

Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-12-2011, 09:20 PM:

i don´t have enough space for 2 projectors.
so i guess i´m stuck with an active 3D system...

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-13-2011, 04:10 PM:

Volfoni rental would be 'cheap' even for this amount of seats. Other auditoriums like this would probably use RealD(XL) with their disposable glases. But then you also need a huge inventory of RealD glases - and one of those dreadful silver screens ;-)

I had a Volfoni demo today. The glases are excellent. Their size and weight even comes close to passive glases.

The new (2nd generation) Dolby glases are crap. They are going down that way...

- Carsten

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-13-2011, 04:41 PM:

Advice - read the rules and fix the title of this thread before I delete it. [Big Grin]

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 04-13-2011, 05:38 PM:

Quick side question: Can the original poster go in and change the title of the thread after the "editing time limit" expires?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 04-13-2011, 05:43 PM:

Titles can be edited...not content.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-13-2011, 06:11 PM:

Well, in the beginning even Dolby didn't reccomend much larger than a 40' wide screen for their own 3-D system although it was inevitable it would end up on larger screens down the road. Dolby's system although very good is not going to be a cost effective system to operate on a 50 foot wide screen. You should take a serious look at the Panavision 3-D system. It works similar to Dolby's but is far more light efficient than Dolby's is.... On the Panavision systems being demoed at Cinemacon there was very little light loss when wearing the glasses vs. not wearing them. It also installs the same way Dolby's does... with a spining filter in between lamphouse and integrator. The gasses are a bit funky but their design intention is to block out any stray light. Wash more or less the same way as Dolby glasses...

As for Real-D... with a properly curved and angled screen there are very few lost seats. The X-L affords efficiency and aligns fairly easily adn stays where you put it. I believe it's purchase price is somewhere up there with Master Image and they also make a wide angle version of it for super screens.

All in all if it were my theater I wouldn't put 3-D on a screen that large! With the "Window In" effect that digital 3-D provides I feel a 50 foot wide image is way to large to "take in" for most viewers.

Mark

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 04-13-2011, 07:33 PM:

Panavision's is approximately 7% more efficient than Dolby's.

RealD has the worst quality, but you are definitely correct it doesn't eat up much light at all (XL version).

Personally, I recommend Dolby as it has THE highest return rate on investment and is absolutely the most profitable system with little upfront cost.

MasterImage is also recommended, even though the upfront costs are a bit high, it does have the benefit (at least for the time being) of free disposable glasses...but MasterImage also has rewashable glasses which is very smart on their end.

Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-13-2011, 08:11 PM:

Ok.
Acording to some of the posts here, the dolby system won´t work unless i use 2 projectors, witch i can´t do.

So i´m left with an active system. the Xpand seems to be the best one in light efficiency. the return of the glasses won´t be a problem. storing them either.

the biggest problems is money. but if i can prove that this system is the only one suitable i guess it will jus be a question
of how much the city wants this theater to have 3D.

Posted by Chris Knighten (Member # 5894) on 04-13-2011, 11:45 PM:

We went with DepthQ it is similar to Real-D but you pay for it up front like Master Image. If I remember right the MSRP is $22,500 you would have to call DepthQ to find out specifics. There are no contracts to sign with this unit.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 04-14-2011, 03:40 PM:

Expand might be your best choice because they are not that far from you. However I seriously reccomend that you investigate it very well... like ask other theaters about theor experiences before you sign on the dotted line. Most of the Expand systems in the States have been pulled because of way too many issues with the glasses and the glasses are simply way to expensive. It's an impressive suystem that works well on a white surface but may present too many operational issues. With the release of Dolby's new glasses plus the laws in some countries forbidding the use of recyclable glasses I see on the near horizon Dolby providing disposable glasses.

Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-14-2011, 05:11 PM:

the problem here is that there are only 3 dealers in portugal, and they have all the market. going to spain or france to watch a movie is not an option. diferente reality here (unfortunatly). So anywhere i go i´ll only see dolby or xpand! it´s sad i know:(
All the decision i make will be base on you´r experience and my good sence.
right now, i´m inclined to choose the dolby system and assume i´ll have a lousy 3D. but since i´ll only be showing 3 or 4 a year i think i´ll take the risk. Get a exelente projector (CP2230 or 2k-32B) and hope the 3D presentations won´t be too much of a flop!
i´mean...if i can get 9 or 10 FL out of it i think i´ll be happy!

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 04-14-2011, 05:32 PM:

What does you keep from Volfoni? Nearly zero upfront cost (emitter installation).
You only pay them money when you actually sell 3D tickets.

Better and lighter glasses than Xpand. They have an office in Valencia - and spanish language website ;-)

http://www.volfoni.com/Contactos

Dolbys new glasses are crap.

Polarizing and shutter technology is not patented. Dolby and Panavision glasses are, they are complicated to make, and they always sacrifice glas size/viewing angle for cost and technical limits. On the opposite, you get shutter and polarizing glases from dozends of suppliers, there is a competition going on that Dolby 3D users will never benefit from.

- Carsten

Posted by Fenando Caveira (Member # 6223) on 04-14-2011, 06:34 PM:

i´ll look in to it carsten thank you.
The only obstacle i can see is the probable increase on
the price of the projector if i don´t buy the hole pacage.

They are all a bunch of loobiest mobsters!! hehehe