Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Which new 1080 projector to buy for BluRay projection

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Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 06-01-2011, 11:37 PM:

Ok, we need to get a better projector for those times when we screen BluRays at our theatre (which is happening more frequently). This digital/video realm is one that I really do not know much about.

The details:
Screen is 6 feet tall and ~12 1/2 feet wide when in scope mode (we have side masking). So, it is about 13 1/2 feet diagonal. The projector we have right now is located on a shelf that is in the auditorium bolted to the ceiling with a throw of 27 feet.

We only have 62 seats, so we are a fairly small auditorium.

We have had two recommendations:
-Panasonic AE4000U (~$2000)
or, as a step up from the Panasonic:
- M-Vision Cine 260-HC (maybe around $4000?)

But, if I start to read reviews my head begins to swim. And, of course, the Panasonic is for a home theatre so the reviews are mostly written by folks with a slightly smaller screen or shorter throw (but not always)!

Anything would be a step up from what we have had for a few years now: Panasonic PT-AX 100U. But, BluRays were not that common in the past (for us).

Looking for suggestions. Remember....I am a newbie in this digital world, so simpler explanations are appreciated. Thanks!

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 06-02-2011, 07:57 AM:

i am sure you'll get alot of suggestions, but first off take these things into consideration:

throw is 27ft and 16:9 fits on 11ft wide screen (scope movies will be letterboxed probably), that means you need a lens with a throw of ~2.5. most home cinema projectors have only one lens, usually in the 1.4-1.6 throw range, which means you'd probably have to reposition the projector much closer to the screen (another 10ft). projectors with long throw lenses are usually more expensive, and each lens is usually in the neighborhood of 1.5k$, depending on model.

If you have a decent screen, i would not worry much about light output at that width, a 270W lamp in the second projector would suffice, i'd not use less than 250W lamps. Also check how much these cost as you can be unpleasantly surprised after you buy a good pj on sale at a great price, but then realise lamps cost a fortune.

Also note, the first one is LCD, the second is single chip DLP. Each technology has some benefits over the other. I cannot for one stand single chip DLP because of rainbow effect. Newer models of single chip DLPs i've seen are somewhat better than those from pre-2008, but they come with a higher price tag (for instance the panny PT DZ series). for smaller screens if you cannot go 3chipDLP i'd rather have LCD.

From personal exp, have been happy with small Optoma PJs, small Epson pjs, small Mitsubishi, smaller Sanyos. There's a big market for these, but as said, if you have a throw of 2.5x the screen, it really narrows the field and certainly doubles/triples the investment.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-02-2011, 09:02 AM:

Since in the next few years the whole world will be digital I suggest you look in that direction and just use the D-Cinema projector to do the job when needed...

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 06-02-2011, 09:33 AM:

Mark,

I understand that. One thing I forgot to mention is that we are an arthouse. So, our films are less available in any format other than 35mm or BluRay at the moment. And, we need something now.

In a couple of years (at the most) we might not even be at this location and with this equipment. So, we are looking for the best possible presentation we can afford at the moment. D-Cinema would not make sense for us right now.

The Panasonic has a lens with 1.9-3.2 and throw distance of 4 feet to 59 feet so getting a full image in a our situation would not be a problem with this model (as far as I can tell).

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 06-02-2011, 10:01 AM:

We bought a 3 chip Infocus 777 modified by Kodak for pre show on big screens. It is only a 720p but very effective on small screens!

I would contact Kodak and ask if they have any left as they bought them in bulk a few years ago.

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 06-02-2011, 10:17 AM:

Hi Victor,

Sounds interesting. But, this will be for features not pre-show....so, not sure if that would work?

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 4784) on 06-02-2011, 11:57 AM:

I have the Panasonic. 12ft wide scope image, 22ft throw, so quite close to what you have. I am really, really pleased with the result.

Posted by Victor Liorentas (Member # 5272) on 06-02-2011, 12:11 PM:

Celine our screen is over 30 feet wide and we show dvd + Blu-ray when like you no 35mm print is available.
It is about half the pixels as 1080p but being a 3 chip dlp with great processing it looks stunning!
Since Kodak over bought these they may just give you a deal which they did us!

All out DCinema is best but...

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 06-02-2011, 01:27 PM:

i second the 777, a 3chip dlp at 720p will usually look better than a budget fullHD home theater setup. it is a bit on the bulkier side, and it did cost a bit when new, so might not be as interesting, budget wise.

otoh newer infocus like 5532 actually look good despite being single chip.

the panasonic with the right lens should be enough and will work great. Lens seems to be exactly what you're after for CS and flat. I would only be concerned for light output of one 170W bulb. do you have a higher (1.6+) gain screen? If you can demo it in a dark room, do it. I have no experience with panasonic other than their larger venue models, so cannot say. check how zoom is handled for a CS setting.

re

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 06-02-2011, 02:49 PM:

Yes, the 170 watt bulb concerns me too. But, I did get a good recommendation for this projector fror a trusted source. Nonetheless, looking for 2nd opinions!

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 06-02-2011, 05:32 PM:

According to the Projection Calculator on ProjectorCentral.com:

http://www.projectorcentral.com/Panasonic-PT-AE4000U-projection-calculator-pro.htm

You're only going to be getting about 4 fL on a 1.0 gain screen from that projector with the numbers you provided. The calculator is probably taking the Cinema 1 mode into account when you select the Primary Use as "Video/Games" so that 4 fL figure is probably pretty close.

As a result, unless you've got a really high-gain screen, I think you're going to be throwing a very dim image on the screen.

Home theater projectors aren't torches to begin with, but you can do some things to help the situation.

An anamorphic lens will throw some extra light, but you'll need a projector and possibly a video processor to do the necessary hoop-jumping. Not a huge deal, just something that you need to make sure is working through the entire chain.

There are projectors that produce more light, and I would definitely be looking in that direction. While more expensive than the $2000 Panasonic, you should get a better looking image on the screen.

The M-Vision projector you mentioned has better numbers in the Projection Calculator when it is set to "Data/Text" as the Primary Use, but it sinks to 5 fL in "Video/Games" so you're close to the Panasonic again.

Something like the JVC DLA-RS50 is going to pump out more light, but the price is going to set you back quite a bit more. My guess is that an RS40 would do pretty good as well.

Running any projector in its high-lamp mode will increase brightness at the expense of bulb life and with some projectors, proper colors.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-02-2011, 06:12 PM:

It is probably outside your budget, but take a look at the Christie HD6K-M. I have worked with the larger version (HD10K-M), and the picture is amazing on a 30' screen. Unlike the D-cinema projectors, it has a good built-in scaler, which means that you will not need to buy and install an external unit.

Posted by Bajsic Bojan (Member # 4928) on 06-03-2011, 01:26 AM:

the 3chip christies are not in any way suitable for bolting on the ceiling of the auditorium (noise, size,...) and of course the 6000 Lm are complete overkill for 12ft screen.

If christie is an option, the LWU420 is a real nice 3lcd and would fit more than perfect. Since you're in canada might be they are cheaper and more available [Smile]

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-03-2011, 10:58 AM:

I think that's California, not Canada. Nevada city?

Google rules.

Posted by Celine Negrete (Member # 5531) on 06-03-2011, 08:48 PM:

Correct, California, not Canada.

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 06-04-2011, 09:03 PM:

Well I have had no complaints with my panasonic AE 100E for blu ray projection yet with my fleet of outdoor movie screens, I only use it for the ones that are up to 16ft wide. For the larger screens I use it in presentation/ bright mode (2000 lumens)rather than the much darker movie mode (600 lumens). There have been issues with that model of projector and I had to send it in for a service for both iris and rare random purple flashes when connected through hdmi.

One of the big advantages of this projector is its very wide zoom range, 2 to 1. An inexpensive 3 chip lcd 1080p replacement with a similar zoom/ lumen could be found through Epson.

My AE100e unit is now close to 2000 hours on its bulb and is 1/2 as bright as when I recieved it. Instead of buying a new bulb I bought a new brighter 3000 lumen Optoma 720p 3D ready DLP unit. I have also got the 3d adapter and am waiting on some panastereo glasses. The Bluray 3d is very impressive .

The main issue with single chip DLP is the rainbow effect, which is not noticed by the majority, recent technology has however reduced the effect to occasional. The early technology I personally found the effect was very distracting but not so today as long as the image is not over bright.

As yet my outdoor business does not need to upgrade as most people do not choose to sit close enough to the screen to see an advantage nor supply the film on blu ray. When I run HD people always comment on how high quality the image on my 720p machines etc. I personally am looking for any reason to upgrade [Smile]

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-04-2011, 09:40 PM:

Celine, there are theaters getting rid of their portable preshow projectors in favor of running the preshow through the big DLP projector. Grab 2 (or 3 or 4) of those and stack them! You'll get all the brightness you need for little cost AND if one fails, the show keep running (darker).

Posted by Cameron Glendinning (Member # 3516) on 06-05-2011, 03:26 AM:

After thinking about it the Panasonic 4000 with its auto lens zoom for cinemascope would probably be the best choice even, if you have to mount it somewhere else (which I have not checked).

As your screen is home sized at 12ft wide I'm sure it would only need one machine but I would probably not use the "Movie" setting in the menu of the projector. On a panasonic the brightest setting is "Dynamic".

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-09-2011, 07:00 PM:

The Pana 4000 indeed has a nice lens memory for easy flat/scope changes. But it is NOT bright enough even for this small screen. It might deliver a decent image with a fresh bulb. If you're not concerned about the best colour reproduction, you may still run it in dynamic mode (which is what you probably do with the Pana AX 100 all the time). Then change the bulb around 500-1000hrs.

The problem with most HomeCinema projectors is that they are optimized for contrast/black level, not brightness. Yet there are some units in the 2000-4000 Lumen range (uncalibrated), although most of them DLP units.

If you had an AX100 mounted in the auditorium so far - how did you adjust between flat and scope features?

Also note that every projector with that zoom range output quite some more light in wide lens setting than in tele setting. So setting the projector as close to the screen as possible also helps. That however, usually means ceiling mounting, which in turn means that you need a device with lens automation/memory - if you don't mind the scope image being smaller than flat.

Still - you will be disappointed after you replaced the AX100 with FullHD unit in the 2000-3000US$ range. The improvement will be not too impressive. If the LCDs are not faded, the AX100 still delivers an excellent image with a fresh bulb.

- Carsten