Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Using a cinema bulb in an NEC digital projector

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Posted by Travis Cape (Member # 466) on 06-06-2011, 04:58 PM:

One of the theatres I service installed an NEC 2000 projector last year. We originally were to have Real D XL and use a 3000 watt cinema bulb. There was an issue with getting the XL box, so we got the Z screen. I gave up at the time since we had to get back open.

Here we are now about to change to the third lamp. We did get the XL box installed. I also ordered optical port glass. This theatre runs 2D 95% of the time. I am still curious about installing a standard Osram 3000watt/hs. The screen is 30 feet.

Thanks Travis

Posted by Chris Knighten (Member # 5894) on 06-06-2011, 06:03 PM:

We run Osram 3000WHS XL bulbs in most of our NEC 2000's it will be plenty bright on a 30' screen. All you need to do is use the brass bulb adapter that is supplied with the NEC 2000.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-06-2011, 09:51 PM:

It all depends on your particulars. That is, what is the gain of your screen (silvers range from 2.2-2.4). You say your screen is 30-feet wide...are we to presume it is constant width for Flat and Scope?

NEC is the least light efficient but the Real-D XL is the most light efficient single projector 3D apparatus.

My numbers show that you need about 8000 lumens on your worst format (3D Flat). With the NC2000, that would mean the best choice on lamp is the Ushio DXL-20SN3 coming in at 9000-lumens. It is a 2400-hour lamp too.

The problem with using "Cinema" lamps is that their arc gap and electrode design are not optimized for the digital projector. You will likely get less light from a cinema grade 3KW than the digital 2KW. You'll pay more to light the 3K and have to change it sooner. Furthermore, the decay in light output on a cinema lamp is almost twice as fast (in the initial 100-hours).

You need less light for the 2D show (about 6400 lumens). Remember, don't set the 2D brightness to 14fL on a flat silver screen, it will look dark...go for 20fL and you will find that it have a nominal level much closer to the proper white screen.

-Steve

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-06-2011, 10:37 PM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Furthermore, the decay in light output on a cinema lamp is almost twice as fast (in the initial 100-hours).

Thus, a question on this: I've seen NEC's using cinema grade bulbs like the Philips/LTi LTIX-3000HEH and 4200HEH bulbs, yet these are listed in NEC's preferred list for usage as well as the Ushio and Osram brands.

Are these cinema or digital grade bulbs? Also, how is the NEC the least light efficent unit - bad light engine, or sorts?

Posted by Travis Cape (Member # 466) on 06-06-2011, 11:00 PM:

Thanks Steve,

It's common height 13' 6 x 30' 6 scope. We installed a silver screen from MDI.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-07-2011, 05:53 AM:

Okay...that changes things a bit but not the lamp so much. You don't have a 2.39:1 Scope image (it is too narrow so you must be cropping a bit in width).

Your worst format is 3D Scope...needing 8600 lumens, or so. Your best format is 2D Flat needing a little less than 4300 lumens. Again, the DXL-20SN3 is the best choice for this range.

Monte...define "preferred?" They are "approved." NEC is distributed by Strong. Strong distributes LTI/Phillips lamps...care to guess WHY they are on the approved list? Though, honestly, unless the lamps cause harm to the projector, (and fit), most any lamp should be "approved." The question is the light output of these non Digital lamps. Remember, it isn't light radiating from the arc that we are interested in, it the light throughput though the machine that we are.

The Helios lamps are not "digital" lamps. They are short gap standard lamps. They give an immediate satisfaction in the film application because they are brighter than they standard LTI lamp of the same wattage. However, what they don't boast about, is that their decay is also much steeper than a standard lamp. So, yes, in that first 100-hours, things look pretty good...but the light continues to dwindle at a pretty good clip.

The digital lamps coming out of Ushio are designed to get more light though the projector to begin with and to hold that light level longer too. A problem with say an XBO 3000W/HS lamp is that it does not know what lamphouse it is going in (film or digital, for that matter). It could be in an Ultra-80, Xetron, Kinoton....etc...all with different optics. A DXL-30SN3 was designed specifically for the NEC projector's optics to get the maximum out it. It doesn't fit the Barco, Christie or Sony.

As for NEC's least light efficient...well, it is on any given lamp size, regardless of who makes the lamp. Put a 4K lamp in an NC2000 and you get a whopping 11,800 lumens. Christie is doing that with 1800-2000 watts. Barco is doing it with between 2000-3000 watts. Yes, there is the uber-bright 4KW for the NEC that gets it to 17000 watts...for 500-600 hours. Christie is there with 3KW, Barco is there with 3KW on the B series or 4KW on the C series but lasting 1000-hours. You could make this comparison at any given lumen needed on any of their projectors...they just are not as light efficient as the other choices. Mind you, I have had ZERO problems with the NEC. They are not bad but they are not efficient. It makes them expensive to operate.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-07-2011, 09:28 AM:

I think NEC needs to go back and look at their numbers again. I just completed an install where back to back there is a Christie ZX running a 3kw lamp and an NC-2000 running a long life 4kw LTI lamp. Now there really isn't a 3kw short gap lamp made for the NC-2000 although there is one made for the NC-1500 that will work... but it costs more than the long life(1500 hour)4kw LTI or Ushio lamp. This long life lamp overlaps the output of both a 3kw lamp and a 4kw lamp and I have found it works better and allows the use of the lamp feedback in the NEC to maintain constant brightness. We can't use the ZX's lamp loc because the lamp is operating to close to the top end, @ about 88%. Oh and the screens are both 38 foot wide Severtsons, the auditoriums exactly the same... Sure the NEC is a little more to operate, I believe that LTI lamp sells for about $150.00 more than the CDXL-30, both are 1500 hour lamps... but the advantage of the overlapping 4KW lamp allows for a better presentation becuase of the constant light output being in use. With my customer it's all about presentation, not operating cost and presentation should always come first. The better presentation brings in more customers and there is no need to worry about trivial differences on lamp cost.

By the way I am also getting completely away from using any Ushio lamps at all. They are going all direct sales and visiting theater chains one by one selling lamps hence sticking it to their long time dealers big time.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-07-2011, 12:41 PM:

quote:
NEC is distributed by Strong. Strong distributes LTI/Philips lamps...care to guess WHY they are on the approved list?

...think, it spells it out right there..best leave it alone. (on a side note though: what caused the sale of LTI to Philips anywho?)

So, the secret equation here is: to find/use a bulb that matches the unit's optics then for best efficency then.

Like with sound: you find a system to match the
speakers ... "Gotcha!"

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-07-2011, 01:34 PM:

Monte... LTI makes the lamps specifically for the NEC. In all fairness I have had as good of luck with their lamps for NEC as I have had with Ushio's. They are also typically several hundred dollars less expensive...

Posted by Travis Cape (Member # 466) on 06-08-2011, 01:10 PM:

Steve,

Thanks for helping. Is an Osram 2000w.hpn an equivalent to the Ushio?

The screen may be only 13 feet. It was such a battle with Chuck, that I'm not sure who won.

Travis

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 06-10-2011, 07:29 AM:

"...Christie is doing that with 1800-2000 watts..."

... SD lamp: which is a very-short arc type. Lifetime ~1.5 lower compared too equivalent short arc.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-10-2011, 05:28 PM:

Hmmm....The CDXL-18SD is 100% warranty to 1750-hours. It gets over 11,000 lumens in an M or CP2210. You'll not get that light/life (combination) out of anything else.

The XBO 2000W/HPN is for the NC2000 (or NC1200) and will yield about 8000 lumens (1000 less than the Ushio). So Scope is going to be your tight format, light wise.

-Steve

Posted by Travis Cape (Member # 466) on 06-10-2011, 08:35 PM:

Thanks Steve, the prices I have gotten indicate the Ushio being $200 more than the Osram.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-10-2011, 10:30 PM:

They are not the same lamp. Nothing, at the moment, beats are meets an Ushio in terms of light and holding its light. They also have a far better track record on not exploding, as compared to Osram.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-11-2011, 01:21 AM:

Ditto, Ushio/Christie cannot be beat by ANY other bulb. Sure they may cost a little more, but just do the math. The light levels they put out vs. the cost of hour of operation and the whole "not exploding" aspect makes them THE choice.

[ 06-11-2011, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Brad Miller ]

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 06-11-2011, 05:12 AM:

quote: Steve Guttag
Nothing, at the moment, beats are meets an Ushio in terms of light and holding its light. They also have a far better track record on not exploding, as compared to Osram.

quote: Brad Miller
Ditto, Osram cannot be beat by ANY other bulb.

I assume you meant Ushio here, Brad. Right?

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-11-2011, 12:51 PM:

Ummm YES. Old age and lysdexia sometimes catches up with me. [Razz]

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-11-2011, 01:24 PM:

Ah hum, While I won't disagree they are the best I've had issues with a number of CDXL-60s including one explosion. As for Ushio you will both be crying soon as they are in the process of taking over all dealer accounts one by one and going direct sales. Great lamps, stupid buisness practice. I refuse to support that sort of company.

Regarding constant light for the life of the lamp... This isn't an issue with any brand of lamp if it is sized correctly and lamp feedback is turned on. If you rely on lamp per channel all you can do is hope and pray it will stay constant... but it won't no matter who's lamp is installed.

As to the origonal question regarding using cinema lamps... Yes, there is usually one that will work. It will generally end up being a larger lamp than if you use a short gap. Probably the best combination was the XBO-1600 in a Christie M.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-11-2011, 03:26 PM:

While it is true that one can use a form of constant light output (Barco's works the best and I've tried all three of the DLPs), it does not change the reality that if you use a Cinema lamp, by 100-hours in, the projector will have had to increase the lamp by 20% to hold the brightness it started out with. A DCinema lamp (at least Ushio/Christie) will not drop by that much until closer to 300-hours in and then have a shallower slope on its decline. Another reality is that as the current is turned up to maintain brightness, the greater the decay/darkening of the lamp.

As for Ushio...we will see. They have been up-front with us, thus far as to who they do direct sales with and who they go through dealer for. They have yet to step on our toes as we were VERY early adopters of their lamps for all of the digitals (including Sony). They have even referred people to us.

I have too used the CXL-16 in the CP2000-M with pleasing results. Christie has formalized that sized lamp with the CXL-14M (note, it does not get the "D" in its name). the CXL-14M does not require any adapters like the 16 does.

As for the lamp "feedback" on the NC2000...I'm unimpressed, thus far. In fact, its whole means of measuring the light seems a bit unimpressive (at least one can calibrate it). I've had it give a "maximum number" when the light coming through the projector was completely wacked. Barco has everyone completely beat on this. One calibrates the CLO for each format...thus it sets to fL regardless if there is a 3D adapter in front, the lens is zoomed...etc. And comparing its setting versus a calibrated meter...it is more than close enough (within a couple 1/10s of a fL). Barco also won't go above 100% on its CLO...like others will do so the lamp will never be overdriven.

-Steve

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-11-2011, 03:45 PM:

Now curious: if the Barco is on the CLO mode (which is a pretty slick feature for this unit..) and you still have to pull the bulb when it's close to warranty even though the light output is great, then what is the advantage of having this feature?

-Monte

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-11-2011, 04:30 PM:

Mark, given your post above, I am now at a loss as to figure out why you support who you do since it is a direct contradiction.

Posted by Dave Macaulay (Member # 813) on 06-11-2011, 05:02 PM:

The only advantage of CLO is that it maintains screen illumination as the lamp ages. You have to size your lamps properly to get the light output in the operating range of the lamp of course. It won't do miracles: often the "best fit" lamp will still be at max power (and not quite bright enough) for 3D scope and/or at minimum power (and over the ft-L spec) for 2D flat. For a pure 2D screen it works very well. The best way to manage a 2D/3D screen would be to have two lamp modules with a big 3D lamp and smaller 2D one to swap them but I've never seen this actually done. The Barco light sensor is in the light engine and once the calibration against screen ft-L is done, it's very accurate and changing the lamp or complete lamphouse module doesn't affect it.
You shouldn't change a lamp only when it's not bright enough... once you hit warranty hours there are two problems: the lamp gets more and more likely to explode, and you don't have warranty mirror replacement if the lamp does explode. Different projector's lamphouse mirror costs vary but none are "cheap". It can thus cost a lot to run an over-hours lamp, while the expected saving is not really much if you calculate a per-hour lamp cost.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-11-2011, 05:56 PM:

That's right: I forgot about that, for there are some cinemas that do run Barcos will have two modules with different wattage of bulb in each module assigned per each presentation format...and the system remembers the hours per each bulb in use.

Just changing the bulb in a module is somewhat more extensive than doing any of the others.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-11-2011, 07:13 PM:

quote: Brad Miller
I am now at a loss as to figure out why you support who you do since it is a direct contradiction.

The one you are thinking of won't go around you if they know who your customers are, they have also sent biz our way as well... FYI: All three projector manufacturers will sell direct to a customer you don't normally service. BARCO is probably the worst offender of that... that lady at BARCO...can't remember her name... is also the most obnoxious of the lot. She lost a huge sale last year to a major Midwestern chain just because she kept pestering the theater chain owner. He got sick and tired of her calls and went with a different manufacturer.

Mark

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 06-12-2011, 05:54 AM:

Some of this is really "old" information. Louis

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-12-2011, 10:20 AM:

Ah hum, While I won't disagree they are the best I've had issues with a number of CDXL-60s including one explosion. As for Ushio you will both be crying soon as they are in the process of taking over all dealer accounts one by one and going direct sales. Great lamps, stupid buisness practice. I refuse to support that sort of company.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-12-2011, 10:43 AM:

Nice cut-n-paste Mark...just reinforcing Louis' statement?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-12-2011, 10:48 AM:

Just answering Brad's question. The Ushio thing is actually quite new as they now have two people in the field actively persuing your accounts via jet travel. They had an internal re-organization of the sales division before Cinema Con which included the addition of new roaming sales people. This is new news, not old news.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-12-2011, 12:51 PM:

You just posted it TWICE on the SAME PAGE.

BTW...we've had meetings since CinemaCon...so far, no problem.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-12-2011, 06:40 PM:

I believe that eventually you will. Once the theaters you sell to find they are quite a bit less expensive then the direct sales things begins. Fortunately Christie does not do this YET with their lamps.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-12-2011, 07:43 PM:

We'll see, I guess.

Posted by Charle Shen (Member # 6335) on 06-15-2011, 10:21 AM:

HI Chris,
We did not run osram lamp in NEC2000. But osram says there are two lamp types: 3000W HS XL and 3000W HS LA, what is the different ?
thanks.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-15-2011, 05:37 PM:

"XL" - Extended life, and the "LA" - for digital applications.

Posted by Charle Shen (Member # 6335) on 06-17-2011, 10:30 AM:

hi everyone,
where to buy ushio DXL-40SN with best price ?
thanks to be informed.

Posted by Laila Napinas (Member # 6347) on 06-22-2011, 03:32 AM:

I agree with Steeve and Brad.
Quality wise, Ushio lamp surpass others.

Posted by Laila Napinas (Member # 6347) on 08-08-2011, 10:58 PM:

Hi, Charle.
U can inquire at Ushio Singapore office.

Laila

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-09-2011, 08:54 PM:

I've had fantastic luck running the LTI 3000 watt Helios on 2-D screens up to about 32' wide 1.4 gain surface. Inexpensive lamp and 1200 hour life. Watch for Osram to release a 2kw digital short gap lamp very soon. 2400 hour warranteed life.