Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Dolby 3D or XpanD

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Posted by Mike Moreno (Member # 4887) on 06-14-2011, 12:54 PM:

wich technology would you choose if you are going to install a 3D projector.

mike moreno

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 06-14-2011, 12:55 PM:

dolby 3D

Posted by Frederick Lanoy (Member # 5416) on 06-14-2011, 03:21 PM:

Go Dolby : great results on screen. Active glasses = too many issues.

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 06-14-2011, 05:48 PM:

Want to be able to change you 3D system from one screen to another, in less than 10 minutes -> XPanD.

Else, Dolby 3D/Master Image/RealD

my 2 cents [Smile]

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-14-2011, 06:01 PM:

Master Image and Real D are both polarized, so unless you have a silver screen in every auditorium, or you can change one in 10 minutes, you're still stuck with the original house.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-14-2011, 08:46 PM:

Active glasses such as Expand's have many issues but the results are amazing and no filters are involved. As for Dolby it all depends on how large your screens are. Dolby is not very practical on screens much wider than 40 feet although some have done it. Dolby will even tell you they do not reccomend it.

From an ease of operation standpoint Real-D has been best for my customers with large busy plex's with multiple 3-D screens. Glasses are free. I don't know what kind of deals they do on the adaptors south of the border, you'd have to contact them... Silver screens required and things will work better if they are curved. Severtson Screens are located in Tuscon and they have much quicker turn around because of recent plant size increase and modernization. Their silver surfaces are excellent.

Of course you can do 3-D without any glasses too...
3-D Without Glasses
I want to see everyone in an audience sitting there blinking their eyes that fast! [Wink]

Mark

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 06-14-2011, 09:12 PM:

Ahaha. Nice. Surely that was a joke, right? I mean, the video did not at all have the look and feel of your typical parody videos on YouTube, but they just can't be serious.

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 4784) on 06-15-2011, 02:55 AM:

I'd be cautious with Master Image. If something gets on that polarizing disk, it will either scratch it or create unwanted light artefacts on the projected picture (recent experience).
Dolby remains also my favorite but as Mark says, not recommended for large screens. It might be worth investigating Panavision 3D, as it uses the same kind of system but could be more interesting price wise. Glasses (or goggles in that case) don't look really hip. In both cases (Dolby and Panavision), projectors need to be modified to acomodate the rotating colour wheel.
If you go active, have a look at Eyes3shut. Essentially similar to Xpand or Volfoni. The cool thing about this system is that they don't use disposable batteries. Glasses are stored on racks that act as recharging devices so they are supposedly ready to go for 40 hours.

Posted by Catalin Balaceanu (Member # 3712) on 06-15-2011, 03:12 AM:

Haha! That's gotta hurt at some point.

As far as what 3D system to go for, we went for Xpand for the following reasons:
- no need to change your original screen (no need for silver screen)
- I wasn't THAT impressed with Dolby 3D - it's just a personal opinion, but I still had a slight feeling that I had anaglyph glasses on, while wearing dolby glasses.
- I was impressed with the Xpand picture quality
- Xpand has a better light efficiency then Dolby
- slightly lower price then other 3D packages
- now Xpand has included a number of glasses in the package (you can go for 150, 200, or whatever number of included glasses in the 3D package)

Ofcourse, every 3D package has its own pros and cons, which had been discussed all over this forum.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-15-2011, 06:17 AM:

One can go beyond 40-feet on Dolby BUT you better be thinking multiple projectors. And like with all gain screens, if you are installing a gain screen to improve the light throughput, you HAVE to curve it or all of your gain will be in the middle.

Ease of use...Dolby and Xpand are amost inherently automatic (with Xpand, if you are running a 2D show...just don't hand out the glasses). All of the Dolbys incorporate a means for automatically switching between 2D and 3D. Master Image can be automatic though the earlier mechanisms made that more difficult...the current ones are much easier BUT you will need an automation of some sort (or GPIOs that you can control easily and program as you need). Real-D is the least automatic, inherently. However Strong has developed motorized system for them (about a $1000) for either the XL or the Z screen (separate part numbers).

My personal preference is Dolby 3D BUT you do need to make sure you have enough light, it is the least efficient (8-10% throughput on a single projector system, depending on color correction). If you have side masking (wider scope image), USE AN ANAMORPHIC...there is a 23% light improvement from that alone.

-Steve

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-15-2011, 11:30 AM:

quote: Jean-Marc Toussaint
Glasses are stored on racks that act as recharging devices so they are supposedly ready to go for 40 hours.

Rechargable batteries of any kind have a finite lifetime. After a period of time (greater or lesser depending on many factors) they will start accepting less and less of a charge, until they simply won't charge any more at all.

Of course, depending on the quality of the glasses themselves, the batteries may out-last the glasses anyway.

Posted by Mike Moreno (Member # 4887) on 06-15-2011, 11:46 AM:

thanks all of you guys

Mike moreno
[beer]

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-16-2011, 07:24 PM:

The current Dolby 3D is licensed from german company Infitec. Infitec has just demo'd an improved system with a much improved light efficiency - around or even better than RealD XL, and less colorshift.
It is not yet clear wether Dolby will also adopt the new system for cinema as a 'Dolby 3DmkII'. It will need new filter wheel and glasses so it's not compatible with the previous systems and cinemas would need full dual inventory (or replacement).
More players are entering the 3D arena.

- Carsten

Posted by David Stone (Member # 4846) on 06-17-2011, 01:20 AM:

HI Everyone,

It depends which way you look at it. Does anyone want to purchase a 3D system with the way 3D box office is heading. As an owner who writes the cheques, RealD is the only way to go. Yes you pay a license fee for 5 years, but they own and maintain it for free,how much does a dolby color wheel cost to replace, what is the cost to have staff wash and collect glasses at the end of each session, how do you ask a patron to pay for missing or broken glasses at the end of a session during collection.

RealD is a simple pay as you use system.

Cheers,

David.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-17-2011, 05:15 AM:

Because, in less than a year, you'll spend more with Real-D than you would have with Dolby. So yes you MAY end up purchasing equipment that you no longer need in a few years BUT it is cheaper to buy it and throw it away than to effectively lease the Real-D system for a year or more.

-Steve

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 06-17-2011, 01:36 PM:

You want a clean and simple system? Just use a dual projector setting with Master Image:
* the 3D kit is reduced to 2 fixed glasses... the cost has no relation with the wheel kit...
* you'll end up with savings with your lamps...
* and most of the time you could use to "smaller" projectors
All that ending with a direct economy in few months for most cases.

Of course, that means you'll end up with an "Poor's guy IMAX", but well, no more luminosity problem.

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-17-2011, 07:58 PM:

I have two Dual systems in service for two years now with no problems and lots of light.

The operator checks convergence every day just in case something has gone wrong.

2D films use only one of the two projectors.

Great solution.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-17-2011, 08:36 PM:

Those dual-projector setups -- are they two "complete" digital projectors? In other words is the cost about 2x as much as for a single projector? Or do they combine two of everything into one cabinet somehow? I'm just curious because I've never seen pics of such a set up.

Posted by Adam Martin (Member # 641) on 06-17-2011, 10:24 PM:

Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 06-18-2011, 10:37 AM:

I don't have pictures handy but one is is side by side (not ideal but the only option). The other is stacked Christie. Christie does not have the nifty option of back exhaust like the Barco shown so the lenses can't as close center to center as the Barco.

The cost of a second projector is not a lot more than a Master Image system and the individual projectors can be smaller for 2D presentation.

Also, you have a spare or maybe a 2D projector for an additional screen once if 3D goes away, again.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-18-2011, 11:33 AM:

Plus if one projector dies, you haven't lost your auditorium, only the 3D.

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 06-18-2011, 01:25 PM:

I know that this has been discussed somewhere, but I can't find it: does the 2-projector 3D DLP system work like 35mm 3D (silver screen with disposable polarized glasses)? Or is there a Dolby implementation (non-silver screen, glasses need to be collected and washed)?

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 06-18-2011, 01:54 PM:

Mike : These dual projectors setup are using "complete" DC projectors. In other worlds, yes you have to pay a second projector.

But consider the following equation for a given screen :
* buy a Christie CP2230 + Master Image Wheel Kit, and use 6 kW lamps
or
* buy two CP2220 + Mi fixed glasses kit + HD-SDI splitter, and use 3 kW lamps.
(or one 2220 by two 2210)

Could be break even pretty quickly...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-18-2011, 02:29 PM:

I would still advise AGAINST Master Image. They are nothing but dust suckers. Dust, dirt and grime... what ever is in your air... gets all over the filter wheel AND all over the front lens element. The dustier or polluted your location the faster it gets dirty. Expect to have to replace the filter wheel AT LEAST once a year, in some locations twice a year.... about USD $500.00 ea. I have a customer that has four... we've moved them all to one location now in order to actually phase them out in September.

If you're looking to buy then go Dolby if you're looking to play then pay then go with Real-D XL. Other than stacked projectors the XL still produces the best contrast range of the filtered 3-D systems and it rivals the contrast range of 2-D. Dolby can't do as much contrast range because of inherent limitations of the color bandpass system.

Steve G. has not presented very clearly the outright costs on the systems...

The cost of Real-D vs. Dolby. The cost of purchasing and installing Dolby 3-D is out of your pocket... eventually recouped from the surcharge. It is cheapest to install on BARCO projectors... The cost of Real-D is out of the ticket surcharge only, usually .50 cents per ticket, or depending on what you have negotiated with them... The equipment is supplied free to any CBG member so it is actually zero out of pocket dollars up front AND the entire time you use it. You make a little less surcharge but you still make some and if you are not using the Real-D equipment and running 2-D you don't pay anything.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 06-18-2011, 05:02 PM:

Interesting on that dbl BARCO setup is that the top tail light is red while the lower one is green ..

.. top one needs a bulb change?

Posted by Gordon McLeod (Member # 33) on 06-18-2011, 05:27 PM:

port and starboard image ?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-18-2011, 09:31 PM:

No, with BARCO it would be mroe likely to be Bow or Stern images.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 06-18-2011, 10:21 PM:

Mark, weren't you on the Master Image marketing department several months back and all down on RealD? Then at one point I'm pretty sure you were talking about how terrible Dolby 3D was. Am I remembering incorrectly, or has your opinion changed again?

Dolby 3D is the winner in EVERY category except for those that are unwilling to deal with rewashable glasses and freak out at running higher wattage bulbs. It is the best picture and by FAR the highest profit of any of the 3D systems. Remember it runs on a WHITE screen! [thumbsup]

Master Image is the best for people that want disposable glasses.

With RealD you can actually lose money and it has the worst 3D image of them all.

Them's the facts.

Posted by James Westbrook (Member # 3690) on 06-19-2011, 01:27 AM:

The red tail light may be a communication error between it's computer and other components inside that top Barco. That might not be unusual on the two projector set up. MIGHT not be.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-19-2011, 08:23 AM:

quote: Scott Norwood
I know that this has been discussed somewhere, but I can't find it: does the 2-projector 3D DLP system work like 35mm 3D (silver screen with disposable polarized glasses)? Or is there a Dolby implementation (non-silver screen, glasses need to be collected and washed)?

You can have 2-projector 3D with Dolby 3D as well. There are special, non-segmented filter wheels availabe from Dolby. It's a bit unusual, but cinemas with a Dolby commitment and a large auditory use it. Usually you wouldn't choose Dolby if planning a new large screen, but I have noticed some cinemas installing it temporarily e.g. for showing AVATAR.

Good thing about dual-projector setup with polarizers: It's license free, you only pay for the silver screen and the second projector. Also, the static circular polarizers have better stereo separation than RealDs electronic switchers.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-19-2011, 08:39 AM:

Why wouldn't you use Dolby on a "new" large screen? Silver screens suck on many levels (color, light distribution...etc). Using 2-projectors solves much of the light issues with Dolby on such screens. Furthermore, it naturally cuts the light way down on 2D so both 2D and 3D are in a better range.

-Steve

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-19-2011, 03:02 PM:

Because the light drop is just too much for a large screen, even with the largest bulbs. And a dual projector Dolby 3D setup is extremely expensive, also to maintain.

I don't like silver screens, but for large screens there is not much choice in my opinion. I guess I would even choose Volfoni/shutter glasses over Dolby then

Let's see how Panavision or the new Infitec performs.

- Carsten

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-19-2011, 06:35 PM:

I would go with a dual projector Dolby 3D, easily. It will be the best looking picture. Going with two projector gets you up to more than 20% efficient...only beaten by Real-D XL but without the drawbacks of Real-D and the XL box.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 06-19-2011, 08:04 PM:

Steve.... I have to laugh... One side of you pushes two projector Dolby 3-D while the other side of you talks about the drawbacks of the XL (misalignment because there are no other drawbacks..). Now get it straight please! Any two projector 3-D system is going to have misalignment that would exceed the XL specs by a ten to one margin and even greater the shorter in focal length you go! How many of both have you installed? Most of the XL's that I have done have aligned perfecfly at center and to within half of the three pixel Real-D spec at the sides and several were perfect! A couple have been at the three pixel spec. And once adjusted it stays put. Even as close as you can get stacked Barcos or brand C or brand N you'll see in excess of 10 or more pixels of reg error on all 4 of the the sides when the center is dead on. Frankly there is no comparison. Also, Dolby still requires a gain screen... you and I of course would use a maximum of 1.4 however... Dolby reccomends a 1.8 gain MINIMUM and one can assume that Harkness has sold a ton of the 2.2 gain surface for Dolby. That 2.2 gain Harkness surface of which I had one and only one experience (Thankfully) is actually worse than a silver 2.0 gain as per the hot spot. I think in the every day theater with either Dolby or Real-D you are not going to see a whole lot of difference in light distribution.... At the end of the day though that XL based projector is going to have much much lower lamp and electricity cost... In many cases one could buy and use the mid sized projector over needing the larger one that takes the 6 or 7 kw lamp you'd need for Dolby. Oh and the twice as expensive lens. I love Dolby's 3-D effect and the color is very acceptable but from a cost to operate standpoint I'd bet that Real-D XL and Dolby 3-D on a 45 foot wide screen would be exactly the same. As far as owning it... makes little difference really. I don't believe either will become door stops in the booth as 3-D is here to stay but we will certainly see less product down the road and that Dolby will have a much longer payback time as a result.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-19-2011, 10:29 PM:

quote:
Steve.... I have to laugh... One side of you pushes two projector Dolby 3-D while the other side of you talks about the drawbacks of the XL (misalignment because there are no other drawbacks..). Now get it straight please!

Laugh at your ignorance! In an XL system, you are projecting THE SAME IMAGE and trying to overlap...any mis-alignment comes off of resolution. In a dual projector system, you are projecting two DIFFERENT images. Any misalignment comes off of 3D accuracy. You are trying to compare apples to wrenches...there is nothing to compare...try again.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Also, Dolby still requires a gain screen... you and I of course would use a maximum of 1.4 however... Dolby reccomends a 1.8 gain MINIMUM and one can assume that Harkness has sold a ton of the 2.2 gain surface for Dolby.

Blah, blah, blah....again BS. I have multiple installations with Dolbys on MATTE WHITE SCREENS! I have them on curved gain screens. It is all about the size of the screen, light available and design of the system as to what you "need."

I could definitely see how a 2.2 Harkness "Pearlux" would look as bad as a Silver, in terms of hot-spot as a 2.2 Silver...though color rendition would almost have to be worse on the silver. Then again, if curve the 2.2 Pearlux to an R=2/3 - 5/6 Throw it would probably yield a reasonable distribution in the horizontal plane. It would still be gainy vertical (one would see a bright band of light in the center from side-to-side and then falling off as one goes to the top/bottom. As always, the lower the gain, the better.

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
At the end of the day though that XL based projector is going to have much much lower lamp and electricity cost...

Yes, that is true...but a much higher per-show cost. At $.50/ticket...how many ticket sales does one have to have before they far out paid the cost of the lamp/electricity of Dolby? It isn't a close call, Real-D is THE MOST EXPENSIVE SYSTEM out there. Do the math. If a theatre AVERAGES just 100 tickets a day (not even a show) over the course of a year (some days not so good but during the summer, much more...so an average 100/day). At 50-cents a pop, that comes to $18,250.00 to Real-D. Thus, in less than a year's time, Real-D is already more expensive than a single projector Dolby 3D system...even with the more expensive lamps. Real-D typically has a 10-year contract. That comes to $182,500.00...I believe I've heard there are 5-year deals...it is still $91,250 on just a measly 100 tickets/day average. In less than 2-years time, Master Image is less expensive that Real-D...even at their absurdly high price for the mechanism.

Personally, I do think 3D is heading away and regardless of if they become doorstops...Real-D will be more expensive than either Dolby or Master Image to the exhibitor if 3D lasts even one or two more years (which I think it might).

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
If you're looking to buy then go Dolby if you're looking to play then pay then go with Real-D XL. Other than stacked projectors the XL still produces the best contrast range of the filtered 3-D systems and it rivals the contrast range of 2-D. Dolby can't do as much contrast range because of inherent limitations of the color bandpass system.

Oh...and what is with this pseudo-science? Contrast "range" do you mean "ratio." Either way, in a theatre, the limiting factor is going to be the maximum white the system can put out versus the darkness the theatre can achieve while still meeting fire codes. Since the spec for 3D remains at 4.5 +/- 1, the Top of range is set. Now, the lower the gain of your screen (until 1.0) the better your contrast ratio is going to be over the entire surface...Real-D is hosed there...they are always going to be down at about 1.5fL in the corners. Since Real-D starts ghosting first, they have an inherent limit on how bright they can go.

Not to worry...when the wind blows a different direction, I'm sure you'll have a different recommendation for all.