Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Satellite receivers for live events -what do you use?

This is topic Satellite receivers for live events -what do you use? in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.

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Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 06-18-2011, 04:23 AM:

Long time no write. Been reading though...

First, I'm not sure if this should go to ground level but since it's equipment based it might fall into the digital side. The problem: we have started to receive live events via satellite in addition to recorded content in our cinema. The first live event did not go well (ended up looking unwatchable so we had to go to plan b and show a recorded event as a backup. Audience was happy, I think mostly because we talked to them through the problem, let them know instantly what was going on and kep them informed) and the other end of the transmission says levels were good, dish size is fine, everything looks good... the only weak link is the receiver box at our end.

We are in the process of trying to find a new receiver now, but cannot find information as to which to choose. Salespeople we cannot trust here, I want a professional opinion. Those of you who use satellite receivers, what do you use? Which ones work and have you thrown any out the window? Ours was a Vantage, and I won't even go into detail unless someone asks...

Please help us out. Our next live event is in September and we have the summer to make any upgrades. All we lack is the experience of someone who has been using this equipment for some time and can educate us a bit.

Thank you for reading.

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 06-18-2011, 05:31 AM:

Elise,

the answer is not that simpel to give.
first question you need to ask yourself: do you want to use live 3D or not? If you want live 3D, you more or less are stuck in the professional recievers.
If not you can take a normal topbox...

We have been using Topfield, Humax and other recievers. They all give us decend images.

Before deciding what reciever you would like to buy have a look at this white page: http://www.dtg.org.uk/publications/books.html
There is a part on coding the live feeds and I'm not sure we can configure those on humax/topfield.

For our live (2&3D) we have one like this: http://www.datacast.com/products/byfunction/video-receiver/superflex-pro-video-series

Neither the Humax Topfield or datacast can give you a perfect image if the reception isn't good (been there also ... seen it on screen...). You should speak to your local partner that sells you the rights to projects this live events. They should give you the correct equipment to get a decent signal on the reciever and on screen (and that way you have someone who to turn to in case of a probleme).

We use most of the time atlantic bird for the live content. Most of the time a good reception. When we need to lock on another satellite ...

Also try to find someone that can mesure the signal that arrives on the reciever. Not just on a free to air signal but really on the band on witch you recieve the live feed (during the test a few days before the real event). Maybe you just need a better coax cable between the LNB and the reciever or remove a splitter ...

Kris

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 06-18-2011, 05:39 AM:

Thanks for the suggestions.

Indeed measuring the test transmissions is tricky because they only do very few of those and about 10 days before the event an hour at a time, that gives very little time to try out different options, boxes and cables. Therein lies the problem. Since we can't test the new equipment but limitedly, I want to get the absolute top receiver, not a domestic model. Signal strength and dish size are good, says the helpdesk where the transmission comes from, and I'm inclined to believe them... it's the receiver salespeople I don't trust. Of course everyone says their equipment is the best, why wouldn't they? That's why I'm grateful for any info on what others use and if they've managed to get decent results with them.

I did look at that box you linked to, before I posted, looked good to me then. I'll take it as a good sign.

Tahnk you for the input and the links. I truly appreciate it!

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 06-18-2011, 05:43 AM:

Are you able to get a free to air signal on the reciever (current topbox)?
If so what signal strenght and quality does the reciever give you?

It could be helpfull to get some more info on what kind of satelite you need to lock and what kind of dish you have.

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 06-18-2011, 05:51 AM:

The current box gave us a goodish signal twice during the test transmission. We had another box (same make, different model that we got in the first place, the current was left to us as a back-up) that we switched to during that test, hoping to get a better signal and that box gave absolutely nothing off the same frequency. Switched back, and got signal again. TV-channels the lttle darling picks up like crazy but nobody's interested in those... at least we know it works, if badly.

Strength and quality were both in the 70-80% range with the box that got any in the first place. Since testing from the dish directly (according to our installator) looked very good, we can only assume it is the box that gives the variance.

We got our material from Intelsat 10-02 with a 110cm dish, which according to te transmitter side, is big enoug. Nobody would give me numbers on the strength of the transmission though.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-19-2011, 08:08 AM:

These given percentages do not mean much. Also, it is highly dependant on the receiver type wether it can cope well with medium quality signals.

How long is the cable run from the dish to the receiver? Do you have a quality LNB? Who did the installation? I don't think you absolutely need an expensive 'pro-receiver' - although, if you're willing to spend the money, no problem. But then I would probably go for a 3D capable pro receiver.

It is very important to have someone at or near the cinema who is able to understand receiption problems. A satellite system is highly modular, one has to think dish to receiver to identifiy potential problems. The good thing is, it is relatively easy to have individual backup components at hand at low cost, and it is also relatively easy to solve problems by changing components systematically.

That said, millions of people are receiving HD content everyday without reliability issues.

On of your employees should make himself familiar with the receivers. It is also advisable to have one or two spare receivers at hand. And some needs to know the receiver software in order to be able to adjust LNB/transponder settings if needed.
This special knowledge like needed for 35mm or DCI projection - if you do live broadcast showings, someone needs to make himself familiar with possible point of failures.

Best is to have a professional satellite installation service nearby willing to service outside normal office/shop hours.

Most cinemas I know in germany use commercial grade receivers, but have one or two backup receivers with easy setup menus. DreamBox is used a lot.

- Carsten

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 06-20-2011, 07:00 AM:

Thanks, Carsten. DreamBox is another name that keeps popping up in my research. It's obvious that there should be a person able to use ad tune the equipment available at the shows, that would be me. I learner to use the box that we had and this appears to be awhole other line of science that I'm required to learn [Big Grin]

I don't mind learning but I do hate learning the hard way, by mistakes.

The cable run is not that long, and definitely the shortest we can manage, no room to wiggle there. The installation was done by a small firm, and they are not exactly close by... which will create problems in the future, that I know. We have to find another tech in the area who will be able to help if needed.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-20-2011, 05:56 PM:

As I said, equipment ist cheap and easily swappable - have a second line installed, a twin LNB, a second receiver. Maybe also a smaller dish oriented for a consumer program satellite for simple crosstests.

In case of problems, it is necessary to systematically rule out potential points of failures. That's easier if you have redundancy in the system.

- Carsten

Posted by Kevin Markwick (Member # 2698) on 06-25-2011, 10:05 AM:

Elise,

If it's any help to know, we have been using the very simple cheap Fortec Star Innovation receiver with no problems at all.

The only time I've had issues is when I bought a second Humax PVR, to record programmes for "Encore" shows. NT Live, Met Opera all fine, but it would not lock onto the Bolshoi from Moscow, it seems the non default DVB setting of DVB S2 is the problem.

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 06-25-2011, 11:34 AM:

How many birds do you have to be able to read?

The best solution for your dish problem is to have one dish dedicated to each bird, however, that would be cost prohibitive if you had to install more than, say, two dishes.

You would use a protocol called DiSEqC (pronounce: "Die-Sek") to command your receiver to read from one bird or the other via a specially designed splitter/switch arrangement. If you have a DiSEqC compatible receiver all that is needed is to program the channels into the receiver. Once done, the system automatically reads the correct signal. From there on, it is literally a point-and-click operation.

The time, trouble, worry and expense of having a tech come out and constantly realign your dish will vanish. From then on, you only need to have a tech come to your venue approximately one time per year for preventative maintenance.

Second: Get good dishes!

Avoid those "Pizza Pan" dishes. They aren't worth crap!
Get a full-size (1.2 meter or larger) fiberglass dish or better.
Have it professionally installed and don't let the technician get away with just using a "Whistler" or a "Bird Dog" to point it with. Make him use an analyzer. It's a box that looks like an oscilloscope. With it, you can align the dish and LNB very precisely.

Aligning a dish with an analyzer is like aligning your Dolby Digital system with an oscilloscope.

Aligning a dish with a "Bird Dog" is like aligning your Dolby Digital system by using only the DRAS software.

If your technician doesn't have a satellite signal analyzer get another tech.
Try to get your tech to come to your venue when you have a live signal from the bird. Sometimes there will be a 24-hour test channel on your bird but some satellites don't. If your guy can't see a picture on-screen when he visits, you have no way to tell whether you really have your setup tuned in or not. Maybe 90% but, you never know. When you have customers in your theater, paying to see your program, you want 100%. (Or maybe 99.9%)

For your receiver, it all depends on whether you have a "free-to-air" channel or an encrypted channel. FTA channels can be received by nearly any kind of box. Encrypted channels might need specific box or a box that has a smart card. For that, you'll have to coordinate with your satellite provider. They are the ones to advise.

Our programs come FTA. We use Sonicview HD8000 receivers.
http://sonicviewusa.com

They have been relatively trouble free, the produce a good picture and are easy to use.

The only time we have had any trouble reading the signal was during exceptionally snowy weather but, since we have the bigger, better dishes in place, it takes a lot of snow to block our signal. On that occasion, we were still reading the satellite when other venues had lost the signal.

Then, again, they had pizza pans. We have real dishes.

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 06-26-2011, 06:56 AM:

I've been so focused on the receiver I didn't even think the dishes might be below par! Pizza pans [Big Grin]

exactly what kind of dish is that and how do I tell if the ones we have (we have two, and they're supposed to get any signal from about ten satellites...) are fit only for baking pies?

The tech did have a machine to test the signal but I didn't ask what the thing was called. I knew there was a stupid question I neglected to ask.

We have DiSEqC in play, and theoretically after the channel was found it was a point and click thing. How weather sensitive are these things? There was a rain front coming in when the signal dropped off. But we can't have anything that sensitive to rely on, this is Finland! The weather's good about three weeks a year!

I keep wondering if we should go back to only recorded material. On the other hand, this is only the first setback.

Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 06-26-2011, 12:02 PM:

"Pizza pans" are the small dishes that you see mounted on homes, used by such outfits as Dish Network and the like for "cable television".

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-26-2011, 08:24 PM:

For cinema live broadcasts, they recommend at least 100-120cm dishes. Should be easy to tell wether you have a dish that size.

However, Finnland is far north. Maybe large dishes like that are quite common there even for consumer installations.

- Carsten

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 06-27-2011, 12:11 PM:

scared me there for a minute [Big Grin]

no our dish is 1,1m and the broadcast side says that's enough. So, back to receivers then. You have given me some ideas, thank you guys! You'll hear me reporting come end of September and the next live go. It's either whine whine or victory dance, and crossing my fingers for the latter.

What seriously surprised me about this opera venture by the way, is that the audience doesn't seem to care if the performance is live or recorded. Why has it been marketed as such a big deal? We had bigger crowds for recorded titles easily than the first live, and all I've heard them say points to the same; they don't care how it comes to the screen, as long as the content is great. I wish soeone had told me this earlier, might not even have stressed about getting a dish installed in the first place.

Posted by Mark Hajducki (Member # 1732) on 06-27-2011, 06:32 PM:

quote: Elise Brandt
What seriously surprised me about this opera venture by the way, is that the audience doesn't seem to care if the performance is live or recorded.

The general impression I got from customers for similar events was the opposite (that the live aspect was important). Some of the shows sold out 6 months in advance.

If using recorded shows it is essential to make sure that there is a strictly limited number of shows, otherwise it will not be able to command a high ticket price.

--

In terms of dish size you are probably one of the furthest sites from the satellite, being quite far North and East from it so you may need to go large still.

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 06-28-2011, 12:54 AM:

My impression was exactly the same -that live is the important part to customers, and will add something to the event that recorded content will not have. For our site at least... after all, audiences differ greatly, and opera shows in cinemas are relatively rare here, only one big chain started it, then us (not chain and privately owned), then a second, smaller chain. They trust in live, we went recorded for the whole season except for the last one.

Everything I had heard before starting pointed to the live aspect being the important thing. Oddly enough, people did ask if our content was live or not, and when hearing no, it did not slow the tickets running out the door any. We did do only two shows per title, to keep the exclusivity factor in, surely. I thought I would hear more about "why isn't it live, when will there be live" I just heard... well, thank you's and praise for the content. It seems that for this particular audience we cater to, live isn't the thing, the experience is. After all, it's totally different if you just show the content, or build around it and make it bigger than the particular title you're showing. We're giving a red carpet treatment to every opera night, and pamper the customers silly. That might be why our non-live does so great.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-28-2011, 07:32 AM:

Elise - this may look as a stupid suggestion - but in many countries, satellite TV is also considered as a hobby/DIY issue - so there are many books available on installation, setup,etc. You may look one of those up in a bookstore or Amazon to make yourself more familiar with terms, components, optimizing setup, analyzing problems, etc.

That will give you a much better background against the usual 'it worked last time, why not now?' situation.

- Carsten

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 06-28-2011, 11:54 PM:

An excellent idea Carsten, I think I'll do that. Instead of getting hung up on not knowing enough, why not learn! *slaps forehead* sometimes the obvious eludes me, it seems. Books!

Posted by Jeff Kane (Member # 6372) on 07-05-2011, 09:39 AM:

Another matter to investigate beyond the modulation (DVB-S2) is the chroma subsampling. Most receivers can only receive 4:2:0, but some feeds are broadcast in 4:2:2. A 4:2:0 receiver tuned to a 4:2:2 broadcast may decode audio but provide no video, may show a 'green' screen, pixel garbage, or all of the above.

If you want a true 'non-consumer' receiver, you'll need to be looking at Tiernan, Alteia, Scopus, Tandberg, etc. These all cost major $$$ and are royal pains in the &&& to set up. From what you've said they also sound like overkill.

Supposedly the Azbox line can do DVB-S2 and 4:2:2 in 1080p, but I have no experience with them. It's not likely, but IS possible the test transmissions were done 4:2:0 but live was sent out in 4:2:2. Stranger things have happened. [Big Grin]

Final thought? The dish size is great, but make sure you have more than a consumer LNB and that the dish is aligned as perfectly as possible. Consumer LNBs can have pretty considerable frequency drift with temperature, and feeds tend to be harder to lock than normal TV muxes, so frequency stability is important. Good luck!

Posted by Randy Stankey (Member # 64) on 07-05-2011, 10:32 AM:

quote:
Pizza pans exactly what kind of dish is that and how do I tell if the ones we haveare fit only for baking pies?

Pizza pans are stamped out of metal, about 50-100 cm in diameter and, sometimes, people try to use them to receive satellite signals.

I understand cost constraints and that people think that it's easier to use small, lightweight dishes for satellite but it's a false economy when you're playing shows for paying customers. Cheap dishes might be okay for consumer use in the home but not for theaters.

The first dish we got for our satellites was a pizza pan. I tried to convince them to get a better dish but we got a pizza pan anyway. It received an "okay" signal. Within a few months, the dish blew down in a windstorm. It was a "See! I told you so!" moment that convinced them to buy a better dish.

The signal quality was much better and it has withstood several windstorms which were worse than the one that blew down the pizza pan.
We now have two dishes. First, for redundancy, in case one dish has trouble. Second, in case we need to receive another program, we can just have the backup dish pointed at another bird and we won't have to upset the other.

And, yes. The LNB is just as important as the dish. Cheap LNBs are not really cost effective when it all comes out in the wash.

My main point is that people tend to spend money on only what they can see. People can see the receiver. They can see the projector and they can see (hear) the sound system. But the dish sits on the roof where nobody can see it except the poor guy who has to climb up there to brush off the snow in the winter.

Because they can't see it, people tend to ignore the dish and they'll try cut costs by buying a cheaper one but, in reality, the dish is the most important part of the chain. Without a good dish, you can buy the best receiver in the world but it won't matter.

Moral: Don't buy cheap dishes.

Posted by Jeff Kane (Member # 6372) on 07-05-2011, 03:06 PM:

An example of good:

Prodelin 1.2m

An example of pizza-cheap:

Cheap 1.1m

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 07-11-2011, 12:41 PM:

Pizza. Big pizza, put a pie is a pie no matter what size. Did get a second look and no mistaking it, it's a pan.

I'll cross my fingers and hope then. Good thing is, no big winds out here, what we call a storm is a light summer's breeze for you guys. I'm more worried about snow... and heck if I'm going to be the one to climb up there and shovel...

Just wished to share the desperation. I've literally gone through this in my sleep for months and it's seriously not funny anymore.

Posted by Paul Willmott (Member # 3904) on 07-19-2011, 12:33 PM:

I noticed that Kevin has had problems with a Humax receiver on ballet broadcasts. Has anyone else had the same problem - we are still trying to resolve it but so far no luck. Every other broadcast and normal channels (including those using DVB-S2) all work fine. It looks like we may have to purchase an alternative receiver.

Paul

Posted by Flemming B. Nielsen (Member # 6356) on 07-22-2011, 01:10 PM:

Hi
I just finished a test for "Live Koncert - André Rieu" earlier today - and now have a bit time to comment.
Don't be afraid of the pizza-pan ;-)
We have been doing live operas/football/ballet since dec.2009 - about 1 a month.
We have a 1.1m pizza-pan and a Humax HDCI-5000 reciever.
We have not had any problems with this setup.
Today during the test, it rained heavely - no problem.
Only once did the weather cause os to loose signal - that was during a very bad thunder/rain storm last month.
Our local cabel supplier lost signal as well (3m dish) - so there wasn't much that could have helped.
I have often realigned the dish to other satellites using only a Whistler (and google-maps). One day I had the tech check it out and he noted that he couldn't have done better. Mesuring movement of the outer rim of the dish - the whistler can sense a difference og down to 5mm.
Always have some known channels from the satellite, so you can test that the dish hasn't moved before a transmision test.
Another good thing, would be to have a phone number to another cinema, showing the same show. Any problems - check if they have the same problem. It is very reassuring to know that others are experiencing the same as yourself.

Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 07-23-2011, 05:23 AM:

Many thanks for that. This Humax -do you record at the same time as you're showing or not? This might be the issue more than anything else, in our situation. Thanks for the assurance!

Yes it would be great to have contact with another cinema showing the same content at the same time, alas we are the only ones in Finland getting this at the moment. Maybe in the future thought, some other places will hop on board [Big Grin]

and I might find out what the nearest cinema showing the same stuff is. Might be the UK though.

Posted by Flemming B. Nielsen (Member # 6356) on 07-23-2011, 07:21 AM:

Hi
Our Humax can't record, so atm we do live only.