Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: CineAsset DCP creator software question

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Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-19-2011, 10:52 PM:

I'm using version 5.0.1 and am having some issues converting from MPEG2 to JPEG2000.

I can get the JP2K to work just fine with the projector in 3D mode but in 2D mode the colour space is all wrong like there's a confliction between the player and the projector.

Anyone else using this who can shed some light on why this is happening?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-21-2011, 03:21 PM:

No one? [Eek!]

Posted by Marcial Feliciano Ramos (Member # 1989) on 06-21-2011, 07:51 PM:

When preparing the files for 2D you are selecting the "Convert to XYZ" option?

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-21-2011, 07:55 PM:

Hi Marcial

Thanks for responding. Yes, I am. Are you using this software also? Have you had any issues converting an MPEG2 to a JP2K?

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 06-21-2011, 08:17 PM:

I downloaded the trial version of this just to mess with, and also add to my arsenal of software that I don't have time to learn to use.

I'd like to just create a brief clip that shows our own gift cards, and also a "Welcome to the Roxy" one that I could play at the beginning of the movie. Obviously, quite a learning curve here. But it'll be fun to try to figure it out.

Posted by Marcial Feliciano Ramos (Member # 1989) on 06-21-2011, 08:20 PM:

I was working with a mpeg file that was trying to convert it (2D and 3D) and always had troubles with colors. I did a lot of test and finally I found in common that Im using the Convert to XYZ option and that my source file is 24fps or 23.97fps and use the option Convert 23.97 frames to 24 frames. It works

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-21-2011, 08:22 PM:

That may be it. Stay tuned.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-21-2011, 10:34 PM:

That was it.

It now works on my two DSS-200's but unfortunately comes up as 'unsupported clip' on the DSP-100.

Any ideas?

Thanks for that Marcial! It must be the only thing I didn't try! [Eek!]

Posted by Jean-Marc Toussaint (Member # 4784) on 06-22-2011, 02:51 AM:

For those not willing to spend a fortune on the CineAsset software, I strongly recommend OpenDCP. It's free and works like a charm.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 06-22-2011, 05:41 AM:

Is your DSS100/DSP100 on the same system software version as your DSS200s? If not, upgrade the DSS100/DSP100 to at least 4.2.1 (3)...last I heard, there is NO CHARGE for that upgrade.

-Steve

Posted by Kris Verhanneman (Member # 5562) on 06-22-2011, 06:27 AM:

If your dsp100 don't play the clip it is in 25 frames/sec.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 06-22-2011, 08:24 AM:

Is it possible to have the files you're working with John supplied not as MPEG2, but as say, a 12-bit TIFF sequence?

Posted by Marcial Feliciano Ramos (Member # 1989) on 06-22-2011, 10:26 PM:

Try Steve suggestion of upgrading if you haven't. All our Dolby server are upgraded and the clips run well.

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 06-23-2011, 12:52 AM:

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm working on them. I'll let you know how it works out.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 06-23-2011, 07:09 AM:

Apologies but I'm puzzled by this; aren't DCPs mostly JPEG2000-based today, and having studied the CineAsset User Manual I couldn't find any reference to converting MPEG2 files to JPEG2000? Aren't these two distinct compression schemas?

Isn't the MXF wrapper going to be either MPEG2-based, in which case there might possibly be compatibility issues with current hardware combinations, or JPEG2000-based in which case there should be no problem?

Also, having read the literature, it is frequently explained that it should not be necessary to perform XYZ colour space conversion on MPEG2 material.

It seems like the most robust workflow for DCP creation currently is to start with a 12-bit TIFF sequence, perform XYZ colour space conversion, then encode to JPEG2000 (audio and encryption aspects aside).

Any comments would be appreciated as they might help others as well.

Posted by Jonathan Jensen (Member # 5870) on 06-23-2011, 10:29 AM:

quote: Brian Guckian
Also, having read the literature, it is frequently explained that it should not be necessary to perform XYZ colour space conversion on MPEG2 material.

It seems like the most robust workflow for DCP creation currently is to start with a 12-bit TIFF sequence, perform XYZ colour space conversion, then encode to JPEG2000 (audio and encryption aspects aside).

That is correct, it is not necessary to perform XYZ colour space conversion on MPEG2 material if you want to make a MPEG2-DCP, but you'll need another macro (because MPEG2 is in rec709 color space).

The J2K workflow you mention is indeed the most common.
MPEG2 is an outdated (INTEROP) container which should be avoided.
SMPTE is capable of handling more framerates than INTEROP. The problem is that far from all cinemas have updated their hardware/software yet, so one must be sure that the recieving cinema is SMPTE capable.

Even if your AV source is in MPEG2, I'd still recommend doing a J2K conversion. The biggest problem is to create the TIFF's correctly so they complyu with the standard.

I've tested multiple MPEG2 sources (4:3/16:9, PAL/NTSC, 24/25/30fps), using ffmpeg to convert from MPEG2 to TIFF's and do resizing/scaling.

It can be done, but it's a bit of a pain until you know which settings to use for which material... but that's the fun part - figuring out how to make it work [Smile]

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 06-25-2011, 08:17 AM:

Yes, the feature/compressor settings for MPEG-2 are a multitude of those for J2k. Most DCP creation packages use only a few standard and safe DCI presets for J2k. Thus, you can be sure that the image stream can be decoded without errors.

For MPEG-2 DCPs, ideally you would want to not recompress original MPEG-2 content to 'a different' MPEG-2 to preserve time and quality - however, then you end up with a DCP containining an MPEG-2 stream that might produce errors during decoding. Also, very often MPEG-2 files contain the audio as well as other PID tracks, so you would make sure it has been properly demuxed.
There are also a few projector setups around lacking the proper presets for MPEG-2/REC709 presets.

As such, coding J2k is certainly preferrable.

People used to think that with MPEG-2 capability mentioned in the server specs, you could simply throw any MPEG-2 files to the server to be played. That's not true - you need DCP creation software, frame rate/sample rate conversion, possible deinterlacing, upscaling, etc.pp.
After all, the extra effort to create xyz j2k, even if time consuming, doesn't add much to it in the end and should be preferred.

- Carsten

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 06-25-2011, 05:16 PM:

Gents, many thanks for that info - the MPEG2 to TIFF conversion is the bit I was missing, sorry if I sounded like a "doofus" as they say in the US (or whatever the Australian equivalent is [Smile]

)

Posted by Terrence Meiczinger (Member # 5059) on 07-01-2011, 02:14 AM:

quote: Brian Guckian
It seems like the most robust workflow for DCP creation currently is to start with a 12-bit TIFF sequence, perform XYZ colour space conversion, then encode to JPEG2000 (audio and encryption aspects aside).

In a typical digital cinema workflow, a DCP is created from the Digital Cinema Distribution Master (DCDM). The DCDM is 12 or 16-bit uncompressed TIFF image sequence in the XYZ colorspace and 24-bit PCM 48/96khz sound in a wav container.

The DCP process would then encode to jpeg2000, MXF wrap, encrypt (if desired), create the reels and the associated XML files. In practice, there is overlap between where certain parts are done, for example most DCP software will do the XYZ color conversion.

Posted by Kore Pendragon (Member # 6361) on 07-07-2011, 10:43 AM:

Its nice to see your version of cine asset works! [Frown]

After re-installing the software and re-downloading it i have finally given up after being told my computer doesnt have qtmlclielt.dll
It does have it so i have ended up shipping my film clips else where to be rendered.
Any ideas to why my computer will not run it? [Confused]

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-08-2011, 07:28 PM:

Well, we're nearly there...

As stated before, the DSP-100 will only play in 24FPS whereas the 200's will play multiple speeds.

We had a movie booked the other day that was booked as 'digital' but the distributor's version of that and ours obviously differed as it turned up as an MPEG2. I managed to create a DCP from that OK with the software. Looks great. I still have to work out the audio channels as it's only L/R but it's fun working it all out.

I've also worked out how to create our own MPEGS in 24fps (they were indeed at 25fps) but haven't tested the results on screen yet. I'm sure that was indeed one of the problems.

Annoying, but fun. Many thanks to all who've contributed in any way to this thread. Much appreciated.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 07-08-2011, 08:27 PM:

Anyone try grabbing an HD trailer from apple or hdtrailer and run it through cineasset. Curious how the program works with video & if something was processed as mpeg2 could you run it in the mix with an MP2000 file or would it require a different color space.

Thanks!

Posted by John Wilson (Member # 269) on 07-08-2011, 08:29 PM:

Once it's converted to JPEG2K it's no longer an MPEG so If you create the added file as a JPEG2K it should just slot into the playlist.

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 07-08-2011, 08:59 PM:

Thanks John.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-09-2011, 05:10 AM:

The recoding is only time-consuming, but not a problem. As far as I know, all high-quality HD trailers like the official Apple Quicktime trailers come in 24fps just as the source material. Check XYZ colour conversion during the conversion, and you have a perfectly DCI compliant file.

If you need to convert 30/29,97Hz (NTSC) and your player does only support 24fps, like the DSS100, you'll be in trouble. 30/24 PullDown on progressive material is no fun.
25Hz (PAL) can just be slowed down on the audio side, the 25Hz image sequence will just play fine at 24fps.

- Carsten

Posted by Alan Gouger (Member # 543) on 07-09-2011, 02:51 PM:

Carsten I am wondering if a gamma conversion would take place leaving the apple trailer unusable if XYZ were chosen.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-09-2011, 07:56 PM:

You can gamma correct in the same XYZ conversion process if needed.

This will never be a perfect conversion anyway, since the high compression artifacts of the original compressed trailer and the 8Bit colordepth will become more visible on the big screen with a 12Bit format. Banding, etc.

To my knowledge, DCI has a gamma of 2.6, vs. 2.2 for common controlled computer screens/OS. That difference is certainly visible, but not a killer for most content.

If there is a Quicktime, Flash, WMV, etc. trailer available, it is very unlikely that there isn't a DCI/DCP version, so why bother with possible conversion imperfections at all?

- Carsten