This is topic 48fps (i.e, 'The Hobbit') in forum Digital Cinema Forum at Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://ft-forum.com/ft/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=16;t=000843

---

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 07-07-2011, 02:43 PM:
 
there's been relatively new news that the upcoming next Peter Jackson Middle Earth movie 'The Hobbit' is being shot at 48 frames per second - what does that specifically mean on the projection end - is digital projection able to present it as such, or will an upgrade happen?
 

---

Posted by Catalin Balaceanu (Member # 3712) on 07-08-2011, 04:18 AM:
 
Are they serious?! Do they really want their film to look like a spanish soap opera, or what?
I imagine that the more you get closer to 50-60 fps, the more picture movement will look like video.
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-08-2011, 06:15 AM:
 
It's not that new. We had a longish thread about this here:

Film-Tech high frame rate thread

Jackson is not shooting at 48fps just because he wants a higher framerate. Sure he knows the implications of 24fps vs. the common 'soap look' impression.

Cameron and Jackson promote 48fps for 3D shooting, where it might be a very different game than high framerate 2D.

Currently there is no DCI system installed that is able to play these 48fps 3D formats right out of the box. We will have to see how this will change in the future.

We might face a transitional situation where only high profile screens will be able to show 'HighSpeed 3D' after a considerable hardware upgrade. Maybe LIEMAX will take it up first. They have single inventory dual stacked pojectors in all locations (which makes 48fps 3D projection a lot easier) and they would probably not care about a server upgrade in order to promote their system over the competition.

I would also assume that Sony is able to pick it up early, because their split-screen RealD XLS and IMB features also should enable 48fps 3D capability with less effort than triple-flash systems.

The 48fps features can be converted to 24fps, even for 35mm presentations, with some special knitting concerning strobing/motion blur issues, so they don't risk too much.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Terrence Meiczinger (Member # 5059) on 07-08-2011, 10:48 AM:
 
Frame rate doesn't necessarily mean much in digital cinema. It is about how much data you can process and currently the DCI specification is 250mb/s. So, you could increase the frame rate and reduce the codestream size to compensate. You can only do that so much before image quality becomes an issue. Of course, there are other possible real world limitations and the software would have to support it.

I've tested the Dolby units well beyond 250mb/s. I'm not sure about the others, but I've heard some of the DoRemi's can barely handle the 250mb/s as it is.
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-09-2011, 04:42 AM:
 
I think the signal interfaces are more of a problem - HD-SDI already needs a dual connection for 24fps 3D. You would need IMBs, or dual-3G, or 4 HD-SDI connections to support 3D at 48Hz. And that means either SeriesII + an IMB + ShowVault, or another major hardware upgrade to server and projector.

Then comes the triple-flash issue for all TI based single-projector systems. Will they increase framerate to 48fps but decrease flashing to single-flash 96Hz? Not likely ;-) Will TI be able to push Series-II chipsets to full-frame 192Hz double-flash?
Will the 3D systems be able to follow without too much performance penalties?
Z-Screen/XL will probably loose more light and/or produce even more ghosting. Shutter-Glasses could be running out of spec. More MasterImage Wheel explosions ;-)

I would think that decoder bandwith is not even such a big factor, since so far it seems very few features have actually touched the limits. We are always puzzled to notice that most DCPs are rather small and use only around 50% of the available bandwitch for 2D and 3D. And since all servers have to be spec'd to 250MBit/s, I'm sure they max out at a decent higher rate.

I guess stacked Series-II/IMB and Sony will be first to support it. And probably digital IMAX. They need to be back on a marketing track where they can show they offer the better experience than the usual screens.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Jonathan Goeldner (Member # 4854) on 07-09-2011, 11:00 AM:
 
so, will TI address or make 48fps achievable in it's 4K DLP projector's. From what I can tell and your explanation Carsten is that it's both the server/processor and the projector have to be up to spec to achieve a 48fps 'feature'. Does the industry truly think that future movies will be shot in this fashion to warrant the necessary upgrades?
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-09-2011, 07:38 PM:
 
I don't know. The future of film aquisition is digital, and with digital memory, shooting at higher framerates is no big deal anymore. Cameron and Jackson each just bought 50 RED Epics with highres+high framerate capabilities, so they can shoot 48fps just as a safe measure for future presentation options.

Cameron says it would be no problem to upgrade existing servers or projectors,
but of course he still want's to play safe and have an option to 24fps downconversion. Originally he was even targeting 60fps. I know that there are efforts under way to standardize these higher framerates with DCI and SMPTE. How long it will take to enable the existing mix of installations with 48fps 3D - no idea.

Of course there would still be a simple way for single inventory - similiar to 4k DCPs, old servers could, with a minor software upgrade, skip every other two frames for a normal 24fps 3D playout without hurting the decoder bandwith margin.

Personally I have no problem with diversification and feature competition between cinemas. If some boast larger screens or better audiosystems or hotter nachos, they could just as well offer HighSpeed 3D where others don't.

Could be a real challenge for the established 3D systems, though, since hardly any of them is compatible with 48fps I guess.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-09-2011, 08:38 PM:
 
48fps for 2D is already in the DCI spec and I believe all players and projectors can handle that, right now (not as sure about Sony).

3D at 48fps on a single projector is not currently a defined spec. In fact, 3D is very weak on specifications at all. It clearly took the industry by surprise. Then again, as it seems to be losing market share by the month, it may be a non-issue.

I see no reason for a triple-flash 48fps. Once you get above 60Hz...perceptible flicker becomes nearly non-existant. Double-Flash (4:2 in modern parlance) would be very sufficient as it would get the flash rate up to 96/eye or 192Hz total...I wonder if TI planed on that as a possibility in the current series 2 (both 2K and 4K)...it is really just an internal bandwidth issue. Which is why early series 1 machines could not do full-frame triple flash...it was just never planed.

Then again, I've seen some systems (early series 1s) use 4:2 on current 3D and the flicker is on the order of film (makes sense as it is just 48Hz). I'll have to check, but I think 3:2 is available on TI machines. If so, then the bandwidth issue is solved as it will bring us back to 144Hz maximum (72Hz/eye). Dolby will likely need a software upgrade for the DFC100 to think of it as 3:2...it would likely see the pulsations as 6:2 since the frequency would be the same.

For sure, 3D at 48Hz will require software updates on the players...I would be very surprised if there were hardware limitations on any current system since they can do 48Hz with 2D...all they need to do is put out 48Hz on each HDSDI line.

-Steve
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-10-2011, 05:50 PM:
 
Steve, if we do not need to care about double or triple flash at 48Hz - why did TI bother around full-format-triple flash for series II at all? If more than 60Hz is 'enough' and double flash be sufficient, why didn't they simply stop at double flash?

It's evident that even 144Hz is on the edge, as can be seen on 120Hz 3D consumer 3D Systems which still shows noticable flickering. It would be ridiculous to upspeed aquisition framerate to 48Hz in 3D and then present with 96Hz parallax switching.
HighSpeed 3D causing even more headaches?

They already now have to switch back to 10Bit 4:2:2 for 3D/48fps, and need Dual-Link for 24fps/12Bit 4:4:4. HD-SDI is spec'd to 1,5GBit/s per Link. How do you expect to simply double that bandwith with a software update on both servers and projectors? Just leaving aside possible similiar issues with Cinecanvas, Cinelink, Watermarking, etc. We are not talking about new equipment, but upgrading existing gear.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-10-2011, 06:29 PM:
 
Cartzen...remember at double flash, we are only at 48Hz (each eye). Triple flash gets it above 60 Hz (72Hz, each eye).

The switchback as to do with the need for both SDI lines...one for each eye. Color took the hit since the second line in 2D is just 0:2:2 chroma. It is too bad that 3G was not adopted on the SDI side of things...it would deal with 4:4:4 on 3D and reduce 2D to just a single SDI line.

As I said, 48Hz was already in the DCI spec and all players are capable on 2D...for 3D, I see things currently topping out at 30fps but this is likely more software related and possibly hardware (older systems will likely have more hardware limitations than current ones).

-Steve
 

---

Posted by John Gavin (Member # 5949) on 08-02-2011, 03:13 AM:
 
Terrence,

The Doremi servers were software limited to 250Mb/s. Some packages
released did not conform to the DCI spec ( over 250Mb/s ) and they
may have caused an issue with older software. But currently the
decoder software controls have been adjusted, so that the decoder
can handle greater than 250Mb/s.

I think for higher frame rate 3D, new IMB's will be required and
a updated DCI spec with higher bit rates, frame rates etc.
 

---

Posted by Paul Gordon (Member # 3320) on 08-02-2011, 07:31 AM:
 
So will there be any 35mm prints of the Hobbit? If not The Hobbit could be the film/DCP that finally kills 35mm. Its going to be a huge film, bigger then Lord of the Rings maybe bigger then Potter.
 

---

Posted by Olivier Lemaire (Member # 5579) on 08-02-2011, 07:21 PM:
 
it was an hobbit that finally defeated Sauron... so, who know, Jonathan is probably right!
 

---

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-02-2011, 09:06 PM:
 
Since 'The Hobbit' is shot at 48fps, it can be converted to 24fps Film.
It is planned for release in 2012 - sure we will also see 35mm prints.

AVATAR 2 - I'm not so sure.

- Carsten
 

---

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-05-2011, 07:55 PM:
 
A video posted about shooting in 3D at 48fps.

Here
 

---

Posted by Keegan O'Brien (Member # 6539) on 11-05-2011, 08:27 PM:
 
I wish Jackson and company would stop spreading the deceptive 5K resolution of the EPIC. But, The Hobbit is, along with The Dark Knight Rises, my most anticipated movie of 2012. Can't wait to see the story on screen, and witness how Jackson handled 48fps.

I suppose this will be the first film A/Vphiles will flock to D-IMAX theaters as opposed to 15/65mm.
 

---

Posted by Mark J. Marshall (Member # 1409) on 11-06-2011, 07:08 PM:
 
Can digital IMAX show 48 fps?
 

---

Posted by Keegan O'Brien (Member # 6539) on 11-06-2011, 09:22 PM:
 

quote: Mark J. Marshall

---

Can digital IMAX show 48 fps?

---