quote: Sam D. Chavez

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Logic is not always the answer here.

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In this industry? Surely you jest.
 

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Posted by Pete Naples (Member # 761) on 07-18-2011, 04:45 PM:
 
Well put Steve

William, at the end of the day, you pays your money, you takes your choice.

The Series 1s will be reaching the end of their supported life in around 5 years So if you do go for one, make sure that your longer term plan includes some whay of financing its replacement in the fairly near future.

I've customer who bought one of these second hand machines.... Not a great experience with it so far. I've also had dealings with a second hand server lately. Far too many issues for a refurbished unit.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-18-2011, 05:20 PM:
 
Barco has repeatedly told me they plan to support their projectors 10-years or so beyond discontinuation. In particular, the DP100 they said they planned on support through 2016...so if one is that old, then yes, as Pete said, some are in danger of parts availability issues.

Note, I brought up the DP1200-DP2000 in respect to Barco...they were in production until 2009...thus one has 8 more years on the parts plus they share quite a few parts from current machines. Note, I also still have Barco DP50s in service...it isn't like these things drop dead right away...however the discontinuation of support notice has been issued on the DP50 (and similar Christie vintage units).

As I said earlier...there are series 1 and there are series 1s...they are not all in the same state of usability and supportability.

-Steve
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-18-2011, 07:09 PM:
 
The relatively new DP100 power supply electronics are already no longer repaired. You have to buy a new power supply. Not exactly cheap as in a Strong switcher.

You are so right, there are Series One of several iterations.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-18-2011, 08:24 PM:
 
What Steve and Sam said!
There are indeed series 1 projectors that can not be upgraded at all! I bet Carmike has a bunch of them! If it's used Christies you're looking at get the DLP Interface interrogater software and check them. There is a sheet that goes along with the software... Use the software to see what your module's SN is on the projector's currently installed board and then look it up on the sheet. If you don't find a replacement listed on the sheet for your projectors current module then you can not update them and you probably won't be able to VPF them. As for used Series 1 I'd stay within the last year or year and a half of manufacture on those and you should be pretty safe... at least with Christie and NEC.
As for BARCO... they have been through too many versions of those stupid firmware controled SMPS boards. My first run in with one was when we upgraded the firmware in an early DP-100 and the firmware upgrade killed the board. We had to move the non operable board to another still working DP-100 and downgrade just the SMPS firmware and that restored the module back to operation. With Christie and NEC they use a more typical switch mode type LVPS that is very tightly regulated instead of one that is software controled.

As for parts... I have had little trouble getting any parts I've needed for any projector thats needed to be repaired but be prepared to pay big time weather it's Series 1 or Series 2. This stuff is just damed expensive! Some insurance companies offer "break down" insurance. I'd certainly consider that on a used Series 1. NEw Series 2 offers warranty extensions fomr just about every manufacturer for as ling as 7 (Christie) to 10 years (NEC).

Mark
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 07-18-2011, 09:16 PM:
 
This is all great info.. which is really appreciated.

Some have assumed that we want a series 1 to be capable of being included in a VPF deal but as far as I'm aware series 1's aren't being included at all in the VPF deal I'm being offered.

The choice for us is used series 1 OR VPF on new stuff.

We are actually trying to AVOID a VPF arrangement. We have the option to go for a VPF deal now but if we go down that route for a new series 2 machine we will need to make a contribution to the deal of around £15k with the balance being met via VPF payments. However, if we go for a used series 1 we can buy a machine outright for slightly less than £15k with no VPF.

Why am I not keen on VPF's? We are a part-time screen within an arts centre and some of our screenings may not even attract VPF's at all leaving us with a shortfall to make up in VPF payments (although I have been assured by the providers that the VPF deal would work for us)

In short, we find the VPF deal a little worrying having always financed everything ourselves in the past and paid for equipment outright. Maybe it's just our mindset we need to change?

In terms of what equipment we are going to be offered I can see from all the advice here that this really is not a black & white issue at all. I'm still waiting to have it confirmed but I believe we are going to be offered a Christie and that it's going to be around 5 years old - which sounds like it might be a bit risky according to what some have said here.

My business partner instinctively wants to go with the apparently cheaper alternative of a used series 1 but I'm not so convinced that will be the cheaper option in the long run - especially after some of the advice on here.

Much more thinking/calculating to do I think.

If anybody thinks we are being foolish not taking a VPF deal, then please do say so. All advice appreciated!
 

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Posted by Kevin Fairchild (Member # 4985) on 07-18-2011, 09:21 PM:
 
My 2¢.

If you do end up buying the old series 1, make sure the CINEMA pays a higher price. I don't know if I would bother with all the chains of VPFs if I would only recoup $15k. So have COMPANY A buy the projectors at $15k, and have the CINEMA buy the projectors from COMPANY A at $35k.

I hope that makes sence, and of course this is all based on whether you can get VPFs on those old projectors. If you can upgrade to GORE, I don't think you will have a problem.
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 07-18-2011, 09:44 PM:
 
Hi Kevin, I probably wasn't clear, or it's quite possible that the VPF deals are different in the UK.

£15k is only our 'exhibitor contribution' (25%)to the VPF deal total cost.
We don't get the £15k back at all.

Do your VPF deals in the US cover the whole cost of the kit or only a proportion of it as here?

If we buy a series 1 this will not involve VPF's at all - it will just be an outright purchase.

We are currently fundraising...
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 07-19-2011, 12:39 PM:
 
This post will be way off-beam William compared to the other (saner) contributions, but it might be useful all the same .

With a Series 1 machine you are locked into the current poor 2K standard in addition to the other issues. Now here's the thing - "digital" is as much a cultural (and political) phenomenon as a technological one...the "D" word seems to open all kinds of doors that "Film" no longer does.

So - what if you simply endlessly repeat the matra that "The Future is Digital" and indeed "The Future is 4K" to your funders (public, private or both), until they come up with enough money to enable you to purchase a 4K projector and server outright?

Crazy as it may be, it seems that if you simply repeat these assertions often enough they seem to work! Arts organisations in the UK as elsewhere (my own country included) have all bought into the groupthink that digital is "necessary", "important", "vital", etc. - so why not use this to your advantage?

It seems like money is actually no object with digital - and it would be interesting to see just how far public bodies etc. are willing to support their pro-digital beliefs in financial terms.
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 07-19-2011, 01:21 PM:
 
Brian, actually I don't think what you're saying is necessarily that wide-of-the-mark.

We have missed-out on previous funding handouts such as the UK film council DCN funding as we were not full-time. Despite the (wrong) public statements at the time by UKFC that anybody could apply, we couldn't because we were not full-time.

Since then we have also missed-out on more UK film council funding simply for being in the 'wrong' area.

We've seen all around us benefit from funding - even a film club in the same arts centre as us got £10k for DVD projection.

So, now I'm inclined to agree with you - we need to get on the 'digital is best' bandwagon and are currently looking at forming a charitable structure specifically to raise funds for new equipment. Being charitable is likely to make us eligible for more funding than we are at present.

Along the lines of your suggestions we have just had our first 'fundraising' screening for digital equipment. We were very open about what we needed and the fact that it was going to be digital. The local press covered us and we raised £500 towards the fund on our first modest screening. Trouble is, it could take us at least a year to raise a substantial amount towards new kit.

What do you think of VPF deals Brian?
 

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Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-19-2011, 07:37 PM:
 
Nothing "said" can be actioned on later in a court. Get everything in writing, especially if someone says that an old projector is elligible for anything.

At the least, you would want your money back. Louis
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 07-19-2011, 09:52 PM:
 
Series 2 projectors and server prices are dropping steadily and are actually quite a lot less than series 1 goods cost just 2 years ago.

Go for the series 2. I agree with Brian.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-19-2011, 10:25 PM:
 
Yes, the Series 2 projectors are also considerably simpler inside than series 1 was. Less to break = better reliability.

Mark
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 07-20-2011, 08:41 AM:
 

quote: William F Green

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What do you think of VPF deals Brian?

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Apologies as I know very little about that area I'm afraid, but of course there is great expertise available here.

Also top-rate Integrators / Installers in the UK like Bell Theatre Services, Omnex Pro-Film and Sound Associates should be able to advise further.

BTW - suggestion: try at all costs to keep your 35mm equipment in situ also
 

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Posted by Elise Brandt (Member # 5552) on 07-21-2011, 02:14 AM:
 
Jumping in as a fellow European.

I have to say I hate the idea of the VPF servitude, but that depends greatly on the terms. Will "they" have a say in your programming? What does the fine print say -will you be able to make the VPF quota issued to you? They assure you that you can, but they don't know your business as you do. Can you really? What will the penalties be if you don't?

The series 2 is what I'd go for, if the terms are acceptable. You get the maintenance as well in that deal, that's very attractive. What worries me is... well, if they're ready to include a small part-time cinema in the deal, they stand to gain something from it. Maybe it's from the goodness of their hearts but me, I don't think so.

I'm just too suspicious of the VPF deals, maybe because we haven't needed one thanks to the governmental grants -type of situation we have here. Who proposed the deal to you? Is it a non-profit entity whose goal is to leave no one behind (good guys) or a financially-angled third party?
 

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Posted by Larry Zuverink (Member # 1483) on 07-21-2011, 10:10 PM:
 
Remember also if your even remotely thinking about 3D, Series 1 needs to be upgraded to do full frame triple flash. Also I know that the majority of Christie Series 1 are not HDCP compliant if you plan on doing Alt Content.
 

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Posted by John Gavin (Member # 5949) on 08-02-2011, 02:04 AM:
 
Series 1 projectors have at least, Cinelink 1 encryption. I
cannot see anyone being denied content with a Series 1. There are
still thousands of them installed around the globe. The issue
would only be with new VPF installs, where there is a requirement
that the equipment be DCI certified ( though this is not yet
being enforced ), at some point it probably will be.

That said, I would as mentioned, want a killer deal on the Series
1.

As for 2K or 4K, to the customer no one will see any difference
on moving image. That is why there is a push to higher frame
rates for 2D and 3D. No point in spending money if the customer
cannot tell the difference.

Disclaimer: This post is my opinion, nothing more.
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 08-02-2011, 09:02 AM:
 
I am extremely grateful for the opinions offered here - I am grappling with all of our options at the moment (it feels like a monumental task for a small company such as ours) and once I've got a better idea of all the options open to us I will report here in case others find the info useful.
Should know more this week..
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 08-03-2011, 12:44 PM:
 
We have now been offered the following used kit:

Christie CP 2000s
or
NEC NC800

both of these come with Doremi servers, Cine IPM but do not include a lamp!

Now most people are saying we should go for the Christie but it's not a straightforward choice as a new long-throw lens would have to ordered making the Christie well over £21,500 (before tax) which seems a heck of a lot for a series 1 machine to me.
Additionally the Christie needs 3-phase power which we DON'T currently have in the projection room. Bearing in mind that the venue we use can be hostile to changes (such as installing 3-phase) it starts to look as if the Christie is not a viable choice for us.

The NEC operates from a single phase supply but uses horribly expensive lamps. But it's also cheaper than the Christie and has a lens that can do the job (waiting for confirmation on that) for no extra cost bringing-in the total purchase to £15000 (plus tax).
Now I know from talking to people this last week and from info here that the NEC's light output is more limited and it's very unsuitable for 3D but neither of these is a problem for us.

The third potential alternative is that there might be a Christie CP 2000M available from somebody else but I really don't know the price yet. Single phase supply and semi-portable format.

Does anybody have any thoughts on the above options?
Thanks!
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-03-2011, 12:55 PM:
 
But....

Which CP-2000? There are several variations M, S, SB, etc and several variations in rectifier. The Thyrisistor based rectifier in the earlier CP-2000's has it's own problems and quirks and can cause it's own visual artifacts. What was the date of manufacture of the projector? Does it have EFIB or FFIB? Have you run the Christie Interrogator software to see what type of interface board it has? To see if it can even be updated to the Gore style board or not which the studios may eventually require be installed in all Series 1 projectors (some can not be updated) and if it's HDCP compliant or not... some later interface modules are HDCP compliant. Figure as much as an extra 3500 USD to install the Gore update plus labor.

For sure pass on the NEC as it ONLY takes the very expensive Cermax style modular xenon lamps... About 2K USD each! What would you do if this lamp company shut down? The projector itself is actually pretty decent though and quite light efficient because of the modular lamp. For some reason or other there are lots of NC-800's in Europe.

The Christie M is a good projector for the right job. It accepts interchangable lamps and also accepts 1kw and 1.6kw short cinema type lamps. It can easily light up a 20' wide screen with a 1.6kw cinema lamp to spec on a 1.0 gain screen. I've done it several times myself. But from another view point the M was only made for a brief time period... about a year and a half... and it is certainly the odd ball in the Christie Series 1 line up. PArts will certainly become scarce much quicker. The 2kw lamp (or is it now 1.8kw) is also pricy and has a short life span.

So from your present line up I'd be far more inclined to pick the CP-2000 even though the lens costs more. I'd say shop around for the lens some where else! Any lens from BARCO, NEC or Christie will fit the CP-2000. If it turns out to be an S or SB all the better. There are also so many of them around that parts should not be an issue for quite a few years to come.

Mark
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 08-03-2011, 01:32 PM:
 
Great info thanks Mark.
It's a Christie CP2000-S we are being offered and I didn't know that lenses from other machines would fit.
One engineer/installer here has told me he thinks that the Christie could be made to operate from a 220v single phase supply although maybe not the ballast/rectifier.

Apparently the Doremi DCP 2000 servers supplied have the latest FIPS compliant media block fitted and the FIPS upgrade to the projector itself is available at £2000.

I'm not sure about HDCP compliance though and I have asked about this as we do screen a fair amount of alternative content. Doesn't a CINE IPM unit make a connected proj HDCP compliant or is HDCP compliance required right through the chain?

How do the prices look? Fair?
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 08-03-2011, 02:50 PM:
 
I think the prices are reasonable (don't know enough about the HDCP issue unfortunately).

I think the real issue is how to bridge the gap between the STG£ 15K you are able to contribute and the STG£ 21,500 plus you really need to make things work whilst avoiding VPFs.

Is there any way a Grant could be obtained from the local Council, etc.? You've already commendably done some fundraising and I wonder if top-up grant funding could get you over the finish line.

You could try to economise in terms of projector choice, but as Mark points out, you then pay over the odds for items like lamps.

A Series 1 machine is clearly a compromise, and you may have to replace it in a few years time, but it looks like this is going to be the best option in terms of total finance available and your situation (apologies as I'd missed the fact you were a 60-day-a-year venue, which essentially Voids comments I made earlier in this thread).

In terms of installing 3-phase power, again I would have thought that if your hosts were informed you are "going digital" then any opposition should evaporate. In the bigger scheme of things, it shouldn't be a major issue. Any "bodging" in this area should certainly be avoided.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-03-2011, 02:51 PM:
 
These prices sound pretty high to me. 21,000 Pound Sterling is roughly $42,000 for a Series One. This is just for the projector or including server?

I agree with Mark about the NEC and the M is probably too small for your application. The M is now called the model 2210 series two and is essentially the same mechanical bits, right Mark?
 

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Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 08-03-2011, 03:04 PM:
 
Sam, I think that's for the projector, server and alternative content interface; AFAIK it's part of a deal on surplus equipment currently being offered in the UK.

The offer price for this package is a bit lower than quoted on account of William having to look at a different lens option for his theatre.
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 08-03-2011, 03:19 PM:
 
Yep, that's right it's for the server, projector, cine IPM and is part of the deal Brian is talking about.
Without the additional lens cost the Christie 2000-s would be £17,000 and the NEC £15,000.

Sam, not too sure if any projector is actually too small for us as we only have an 18ft (matt white) screen but with a long-ish throw, hence the extra lens cost.
W.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-03-2011, 04:37 PM:
 
Go with the Christie. You don't really need the GoreBoard upgrade now, you can do the upgrade later if you're really short on money now. The CineIPM should make up for most 'HDCP' needs for alternative content for a while.

Unlike in the US or under VPF-contracts, this GoreBoard upgrade is not mandatory in Europe (so far).

3phase shouldn't be so complicated to install. If you limit yourself to single-phase machines just because you hesitate to install a 3phase socket - that is not wise.
Get a certified electrician in-house and let him evaluate options and cost.

Although 15.000 GBP is a very attractive price for a full operational DCI system -
the NEC will turn out very expensive once you have to buy new lamps. The additional lens for the christie won't hold up long against lamp cost for the NC800.
Most people with a NC800 seem to regret that decision quickly - search the forum!

21.000 GBP is roughly 24.000€ - that is one third of the price of a new system with similiar parameters/class. Not a bad offer.

Check the EFIB/FFIB board issue - if the board can't do full-format triple-flash, you might have to reconsider the lens choice if you want to do 3D (you have to zoom further in on non-triple.flash capable projectors). If you are absolutely sure you don't need 3D, then ignore.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Frank Cox (Member # 6258) on 08-03-2011, 06:36 PM:
 
Upgrading single-phase power to 3-phase can be amazingly expensive. A few years ago when the whole digital cinema thing was just getting started I asked around a bit and was told that I would need 3-phase power for a digital projector. I checked with Sask Power and an electrician and was given a ballpark figure of between $12,000 and $18,000 to get 3-phase power in my theatre.

Ultimately I didn't have to get 3-phase power and I'm obviously pretty happy about that.
 

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Posted by Sam D. Chavez (Member # 1841) on 08-03-2011, 06:41 PM:
 
I cannot make an informed opinion on prices outside the USA and Canada, but series one projectors are very difficult to sell here.

I've seen them sold for 10 to 15% of new prices. There is nothing even close to a real list price here as there is heavy price competition here.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-03-2011, 06:54 PM:
 

quote: Frank Cox

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Upgrading single-phase power to 3-phase can be amazingly expensive.

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quote: William F Green

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Most buildings here (apart from those intended for industrial use) do NOT have 3-phase power and to bring 3-phase in from the street is likely to cost in the thousands or tens of thousands (and there is a waiting list of months & months for this type of work).

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Three phase domestic installations are unusual, but not unknown. If you want more than a certain number of Amps, I think it used to be 100 A, you had to have three phase. This would mean all but the smallest industrial and commercial buildings would have it. Is would seem odd that a cinema, even a small one, would not.

Something that I have seen in the past, is all three phases taken into a building, but only one, and the neutral of course, connected to anything, which makes it quicker and easier to provide a three phase supply in the future if required. I've never seen this in a domestic installation, but I have seen it more than once in small shops.

There are several types of three phase converters, both static and rotary, but the cheap static ones will not be suitable to run anything other than motors, and each will only work over a very limited power range. All these things consist of is an auto transformer to step up 230 V to 400 V, or whatever the local Voltage happens to be, and a network of capacitors which combined with the inductance of the motor windings provides enough of a phase shift to give the third phase. However, the three phases will not be at 120 degrees to each other, this system cannot provide a neutral, and the incoming neutral cannot be used with the output, and since one phase will be at, or close to, earth potential, another will be at 400 V from earth, rather than the 230 V in a proper three phase supply.

One place that I worked in some years ago had one of these things driving a small lathe, and I wouldn't recommend it, for anything other than a motor of the specified power rating, and operating under constant load. Under certain conditions the performance can be improved by connecting a large pilot motor, not driving anything, in addition to the required load. Even with this, these converters are only suitable for running other motors, they won't work at all without a motor connected, and they work very badly when the main load is something other than a motor, of something close to the specified power rating.

A rotary converter, or a three phase inverter, might be able to operate a projector, but I wouldn't try it without approval from the manufacturer.

In the UK all three phases almost certainly run past your building, if not actually into it, unless you're in some very remote area, so the cost of getting proper three phase might not actually be that great compared to the total cost of a digital cinema installation, and it's certainly the only way that I'd want to do it.
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-05-2011, 09:56 PM:
 
Steve... I have two CP2000 SB with type 4 interface boards that are hdcp compliant... There is an ~800.00 credit given on that board. I don't see any need for the type 5 board. 800 bucks is 800 bucks in this case x 3.
 

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Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-06-2011, 05:08 AM:
 
Mark, I agree with the Type-4 board...the Type 5 board has been for VPF deals...type 5 is identical to the type 4 except it has the "security enclosure."

However, he was mentioning an older projector than the SB so he would not have a type 4 it would be a type 2 or 3. Christie's plan is basically send you a board of like type...just with the security enclosure. And they would give you a credit for that (all they are doing is wrapping the older boards with the enclosure and sending them back out.

Given the above option...I would skip sending the non type 4 board back and just get a new type-5 (all that is available now as a replacement part) and get HDCP compliance (as well as DCI compliance). And that was essentially the question...the ability to play BluRays...which any player issued in 2011 or beyond will no longer do HD component. Thus the desire to have an older series 1 projector become HDCP compliant too.

-Steve
 

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-06-2011, 03:28 PM:
 
Steve... Agreed!

Also, re: The three phase convertor... I would only reccomend the rotary type for this purpose as the winding generating the third phase leg is substantial enough to maintain the proper voltage on that third leg, they are typically 95% efficient. Static convertors generally have a lower voltage on that third leg becvause of power loss through the phase shifting components that are generating the third leg. They are typically 80% of the input voltage which in the case of a motor is no big deal but in the case of a rectifier may cause unwanted artifacts on the DC.
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 08-10-2011, 10:20 AM:
 
The issue with 3-phase is that we are currently in a local authority operated multi-use 'arts centre' which DOES have 3-phase entering the building but not in the projection room.

There are all sorts of issues that make it difficult to get 3-phase into the projection room. Plus the venue is somewhat hostile to changes like this (or any changes in fact) unfortunately and so I have to be sure before I even ask them about this. We had a huge battle (and I mean a HUGE battle) to even get and additional port installed for LCD projection - so, installing any additional equipment has to be done with the minimum of fuss (ideally just plugged-in).
For this and other reasons we do expect to move all of our cinema operations to another venue in future - which may or may not have 3-phase easily available.
It makes decisions so much harder at the moment when we don't have full control over the venue we are using.

In terms of equipment - despite some significant short-comings we are veering towards the NEC for reasons of compactness/convenience. Does anybody know how many hours the expensive NEC lamps run for?
I've been assuming 500 hours which would give us about a year and a half's operation in the current 60-day-a-year venue but could work out as a major cost if we ever went full-time.
We are mindful of the advice given here on the cost of operating the NEC and have also made an offer on a Christie CP2000-M for that reason.

You can see that we are favouring 'portable' or at least move-able machines, and again that relates to our desire to leave the current venue as soon as a better alternative is found.

Regarding spares availability, I don't have a problem with the 2000-M being made in relatively small numbers as we have been operating (in addition to the venue above) a portable 35mm machine for the last 10 years with NO spares available in the UK - and we've managed pretty well on the whole having never lost a show due to tech failure.

Why is there an issue with the earlier projectors not being HDCP compliant I wonder? We have a 5 year old LCD projector which is compliant and so I must admit the HDCP thing has come as a bit of a surprise.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-10-2011, 11:54 AM:
 
Well, HDCP is a consumer-type-interface. All Series1 lacked it in the beginning. There are cheap ways to circumvent it, but the GoreBoard Upgrade for the Christie solves multiple issues at once.

You may contact NEC about any options regarding the NC800. That machine is bright enough for your screen, so, the higher cost for the Christie could easily be spent in quite a number of replacement lamps. If you only operate 60days/year, the NEC is probably better suited, given all the other implications. After all, it gives you a full working 2k DCI setup for 15.000 GBP. Any yes, it IS more portable. Maybe your 60 days a year will even let you explore other locations in between. Much easier that with your current 35mm gear I guess.

Usually I would always prefer the Christie 2000 against the NC800.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 08-10-2011, 01:13 PM:
 
Thanks Carsten. What are the 'cheaper' HDCP options you mentioned? An HDCP compliant HDMI switcher maybe?

Yes, we are far more likely to be able to find another venue that can accommodate the NEC than 35mm or larger DCP. We know of one cinema here that uses the NEC 800 mounted in a box on the front of a balcony completely removing the need for a projection room at all (server etc is in a small room behind the screen). In fact they told us that the extra space this gave to seating made the difference between profit and loss.
 

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Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-10-2011, 05:10 PM:
 
A Switcher would still forward HDCP to the projector and would not make a difference.

If you get the Scaler with the NEC, they cheapest way to connect HDMI/HDCP sources is a HDFury->Component/RGB inputs.

- Carsten
 

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Posted by Amanda Mundin (Member # 3386) on 08-11-2011, 01:29 PM:
 
We have an NEC NC800C, when we install the lamps it always tells us we have 1899 hours remaining on the lamp, but we tried to achieve this with the first bulb we had and when it got old (16-1700 hours) the lamp turned itself off in the middle of a screening, this happened a couple of times, so ever since we've pulled the bulbs out at 1500 hours. One bulb didn't make it and packed up at around 900 hours, when this happened we spoke to our supplier who told us they are only warranted to 500 hours. We've had the NEC for nearing 5 years and I will say that the only real problem we've had with it is the lamp, turning itself off, or struggling to strike when it gets older, and as already mentioned lamp cost which is a little more than £1,100 including the 2 filters that you change at the same time.
We also have the Christie CINE IPM, which allows Component video input which is how we input DVD & Blu-Ray on the odd occasion we have used them.
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 08-12-2011, 08:18 AM:
 
Hi Amanda, this is really useful info, thanks.
One of the reasons we finally decided on the NEC was that another cinema known to us has been using one for several years with no significant problems and stated that they were perfectly happy with the machine.

You might be surprised to learn that your lamp life is actually much better than I was expecting!

I was actually budgeting for/expecting a worse-case scenario of a lamp only lasting 500 hours in total. So the fact that you have easily outstripped that (albeit far less hours than you would ideally like) is a pleasant surprise to me.

Quick question - do you have the lamp 'module' re-lamped rather than having a whole new module? Is the 'module' a reflector with the lamp pre-aligned?
Do you keep a spare lamp in stock and do you send the units back when you are supplied with a new module?
I'm hoping to get final agreement/pricing on the NEC today - still trying to get a lamp included (even a part-used one)!
P.S. Is that the Ritz in Belper?
 

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Posted by Amanda Mundin (Member # 3386) on 08-12-2011, 11:34 AM:
 
Yes we are The Ritz in Belper, we have the re-lamped modules, we also have a spare, to get that we had to buy a whole new module at over £2,000, although I believe the price now could be £3-4,000 to get a whole new module, it depends how prepared you want to be in case of failure. You could operate with just one unit if you're happy to not have a back-up, just order a re-lamped module, change it out and send the old one back. You would have to compare the purchase price of a second module to how many screenings you may loose if the bulb won't strike one day.
The only other thing to consider purchasing a second hand series 1 projector that is no longer made is how long NEC will continue to support the projector by making parts for it, perhaps someone with more knowledge could answer this. Some people seem to suggest that the life span for a digital projector may be around 10 years, which if true may mean that both ours, and possibly the one you buy if it is ex.DSN may only have 5 years of useful life left possibly?!
 

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Posted by William F Green (Member # 3192) on 08-12-2011, 12:41 PM:
 
Have finance confirmed today for our NEC!
It's coming with a re-lamped module but at least it will be a new lamp.

Amanda we've considered all of the potential pitfalls of a used series 1 machine (and considered a lot of advice offered here and elsewhere) and it still looks like the best option for us anyway at this point - and the NEC the best series 1 option considering the installation limitations we face at the current venue.

We are really regarding the current purchase as a medium-term problem solver and expect to be looking at alternatives in around 5 years time anyway. Although, having said that we are likely to get many more years of use considering the number of days a year we actually operate.

I believe re-lamped modules are around £900 and as you say a full new module is around £2.5k
 

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