Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Complaining Cinema Owners...

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Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-23-2011, 11:21 AM:

A friend keeps boasting that this is costing theater exhibitors a ton... Here are my facts which I told him and which you can all criticize all you want but they's the facts.

When you see 4K DLP you will see why. It embodies everything film can only strive to do... There are those that claim it is BETTER than 15/70 Imax... I donno about that though! So how does it cost more? It doesn't cost any more than... a very good theater sound system costs and which every theater SHOULD HAVE ANYWAY. Good theater sound systems or at least major parts of them also need replacing every 15 to 20 years. Digital costs about the same as a new 70mm projector from Kinoton or about the same as a 2 projector booth did with new JJ's. Lamp cost has already dropped as manufacturing quantities gain momentum and new lamps are being introduced all the time. One "digital" 2kw 2400 hour lamp from Osram costs only ~100.00 more then a 2KW CXL-20 cinema lamp. The projectors also typically use LESS power and typically require LESS maintainance.
* I forgot to mention to him that at least some of the maintainance can be done without ever having to visit the theater.

Mark

Posted by Scott Norwood (Member # 30) on 07-23-2011, 11:29 AM:

Where can I see 4K DLP? Is the equipment even for sale yet?

I completely agree about sound systems. Is there really any excuse for running a commercial movie theatre in 2011 with a 1970s (or earlier!) mono sound system?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-23-2011, 01:30 PM:

I've installed three of them so far. Very nice piece of gear and image quality thats almost scarey when you run 4K content. With 3-Dee you get 12 bit color over the standard 10 bit and 3-Dee looks much better as a result. The extra cost to go 4K at least with the NEC 3240/IMB Server is about 8 grand over and above the similar NC-3200 2K version. ~4.5 grand more for the basic projector and 2500 more for the 4K IMB version of the GDC server. I donno where other manufacturers have priced theirs yet. Existing lensing is compatable and generally you need to go 1 step UP in lensing as the chips are 1.38" instead of 1.2" and of course extra brightness occurs. Perhaps a really good choice for Drive Ins. There is always room for improvement in digital lensing and the real potential of 4K may not be known until a company like Schneider decides to produce some lensing for them.

Mark

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 07-25-2011, 03:16 AM:

Barco seems to supply two grades of lenses - cinema and post. For 4k, they suggest the more expensive post-grade lenses.

- Carsten

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-25-2011, 08:26 AM:

Carsten,

I believe the only difference might be is one is high contrast and one is just the normal lens. Christie offers that as well. I believe the only difference is that there is an aperature in the lens as they are not quite as light efficient. With NEC to gain higher contrast you just install the factory supplied aperature onto the input end of the integrator rod.
I am also seeing three brands of lensing now from NEC. N-Vision which is an Austrian Company. The usual Konica-Minolta, and Fujinon which I know Barco also uses. The N-Vision lensing appears to perform the best as far as sharpness and contrast but has the slowest zoom and focus motors. Fujinon is the fastest in that regard.

Mark

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 07-25-2011, 12:48 PM:

Looks like he really doesn't know the facts if he's only seeing it from the outside ...

Posted by Tom Bert (Member # 5719) on 07-26-2011, 09:23 AM:

Mark,

I'm surprised to read "and of course extra brightness occurs": is the lumen spec for the 3240 higher than for the 3200 ? If yes: how much?

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-26-2011, 09:44 AM:

Most are experiencing more light on the 4Ks due to the larger aperture (1.38" versus 1.2"). I don't know how well documented the real world gain is, however. I know one brand was putting up higher lumen specs in the literature before they had projectors.

-Steve

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-26-2011, 09:49 PM:

"I know one brand was putting up higher lumen specs in the literature before they had projectors."

It can be worked out mathematically if the specs of the existing optical chain is already known... kind of like designing a zoom lens. This is not something that is always measured and then published because optical designs can come very close to the target sought... although it obviously should also to be confirmed by prototype. The 4K NEC's that I've installed are considerably brighter then the same 2K counterpart is although I can't give a percentage of increase I'd estimate around 15 to 20% more light. The prism block's transmissivity is already a known thing as thats one of the targets used to design it. The glass used to make it is also a known factor. Some of the 4K projectors are just adapted 2K units usung the exact same lamphouse and several other existing items in the light chain. All it really requires is a slightly larger integrator rod and the 4K prism block and thus many existing 2K units can easily be converted to 4K quite easily. Even existing ICP modules will work if they have adaquate memory on them. To be honest if one is looking at buying large 2K projectors going to 4K is not that much more $$ and it's a good thing in other ways as well.

Mark

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 07-26-2011, 10:57 PM:

Of the projectors I've measured...none have hit their advertised lumen specs. In the fine print, they always stipulate that it was based on using the best lens possible and that variances of up to 10% should be expected...etc.

One must presume they all lie and hope they exaggerate in a similar amount. One manufacturer of DCinema projectors has different lumen specs depending on which document you look!

If I had the time/money, I'd love to measure them all with all the variants of lamps (yes merely changing the brand/model of lamp without changing the wattage can have dramatic changes in light throughput). It needs to be a 3rd party that just measures all of them the same way.

-Steve

Posted by Bobby Henderson (Member # 840) on 07-26-2011, 11:23 PM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
Very nice piece of gear and image quality thats almost scarey when you run 4K content.

Unfortunately Hollywood studios are still producing very little in the way of native 4K rendered movies. They have little incentive for doing so.

The amount of time in the theatrical release window is shrinking. There is no outlet for 4K in home theater. The prevailing attitude is 2K is good enough for things like Blu-ray regardless of the evidence that 1080p reductions from 4K and greater resolution sources look better than stuff scanned and rendered in HDTV levels of resolution.

It takes less time and money to render CGI, node based effects compositing and digital intermediates in 2K than it does 4K. New computing hardware and increasingly massive amounts of data storage make 4K work flows ever more practical, but those same performance gains also apply to 2K making 2K even cheaper and easier. So let's just keep doing everything in 2K!

Lately the rage with 3D (and doing all the 2D/3D conversion chores) has done even more to discourage rendering movies in 4K. Studios think they're going to do better creating dual 2K camera eye views than a single 4K mono-optical view.

If I see a theater trumpeting its 4K projectors in advertising I'm naturally going to be pretty suspicious of what's actually being shown on screen. 2K material blown up through a 4K projector is still really only 2K material. At least with 70mm blow-ups of 35mm film material the 70mm projection provided real mechanical benefits over 35mm (brighter, more steady image) and the 70mm prints were typically produced with higher standards. A 70mm blow-up would typically look better than the 35mm counterpart of the same movie. A 4K projector isn't going to do anything substantial with a 2K movie that a decent 2K projector wouldn't already accomplish.

In the end 4K is nothing to get excited about unless the projector is showing something truly 4K in resolution.

Posted by Mike Blakesley (Member # 26) on 07-27-2011, 02:49 AM:

quote: Bobby Henderson
The amount of time in the theatrical release window is shrinking.

Actually a couple of studios increased the average window by a few days last year, according to NATO stats. More like it's "holding steady." Given the supposed flop of the "Home Premiere" program so far, maybe the overall average window might enlarge a little now...we can hope. Not likely, but we can hope.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-29-2011, 01:18 PM:

@Bobby...2k content looks gobs better on a 4 k projector. Way less pixelization no moire effect with the screen perfs at all. 4k content will blow you away!

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 07-29-2011, 01:26 PM:

So, let's see: 4k. Has it really been only TWO titles available?? Louis

Posted by Mark Strube (Member # 4190) on 07-29-2011, 02:36 PM:

The trailer for War Horse is available in 4K, so I'm assuming that will be a future release?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 07-29-2011, 09:20 PM:

Much of the stuff from Sony is released on 4K. Warners and Paramout also release it from time to time. True Grit was the last big one that comes to mind and was Dream Works. As 3-D fades out somewhat 4K 2-D will become more common as there are quite a few of these projectors going in.

Mark

Posted by Scott Jentsch (Member # 1681) on 08-01-2011, 04:12 PM:

Resolution is just one measure of quality, so if there are other benefits to the new 4K systems over the 2K systems, such as brightness, contrast, and other aspects of picture quality, those should definitely be considered when making such an investment.

If going to 4K is an increment of cost that is justified by those other aspects, why not? And who knows, maybe the studios will catch on to 4K when they get tired of tooting the 3D horn...

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-01-2011, 09:54 PM:

At least with NEC once you are at the NC3200 to go to the 4K 3240 is about 7 grand more give or take. So it would seem foolish for anyone buying an NC3200 not to spend the extra cash for the one that has more future possibility.

Mark

Posted by John Gavin (Member # 5949) on 08-02-2011, 02:44 AM:

One of the issues for 4K is the 250Mb/s bit rate. 4 times the
image size and the same max bit rate. Same compression. For a
really detailed image, the 2K image could very possibly be of
better quality.

I suspect any perceived improvement in image quality is a result
of improved projector technologies as much as the resolution
itself.

Posted by Carsten Kurz (Member # 5396) on 08-02-2011, 09:19 PM:

J2k excels at higher signal frequencies, so, 4k at the same bitrate as 2k is not as bad as it may sound. Given the fact that most movies to date do not nearly max out the DCI spec, I wouldn't care about the current limits too much.
To me it seems J2k was an excellent choice. You could complain about all possible aspects of DCI projection, but visible codec artifacts?

- Carsten

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 08-03-2011, 10:26 AM:

quote: Mark Gulbrandsen
At least with NEC once you are at the NC3200 to go to the 4K 3240 is about 7 grand more give or take. So it would seem foolish for anyone buying an NC3200 not to spend the extra cash for the one that has more future possibility.

Just wondering, Mark - what would the additional lens cost be, if one accepts that a lens with a better MTF is a good idea?

What is the price differential between say, the two Barco lens ranges that Carsten mentioned earlier, or say, higher-contrast lenses compatible with NEC projectors?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-03-2011, 12:23 PM:

Personally, I didn't have too much to complain about with the standard lensing. The image is fantastic with it. Probably as good as one would get from a Zoom lens with more than a dozen elements in it. As to the difference in lens pricing, I honestly don't know, you'd have to call them or your local dealer and ask. I also don't know if the actual lens used in the studio series has a higher MTF then a standard one does but by simply adding an aperature in the lens it can have that effect as well as increase the apparent contrast range. Personally, I am hoping that Schneider comes out with some lensing for the 4K format and they would probably be primes. The nice thing about the NC-3200 and 3240 is the lens mount that is attached to the lens makes switching lenses very easy. Schneider have a few D-Cinema lenses now but not very many.
Mark

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 08-03-2011, 03:39 PM:

Many thanks, some Primes would sure be nice!

Good point re. apertures; although now that I think of it I seem to recall a point made before that the gap between the DMD micromirrors is larger with 4K DLP so perhaps one needs to be careful not to bring about a re-emergence of e.g. the screen door problem through being over-zealous with resolution and contrast.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-03-2011, 04:21 PM:

The gap actually has to be much smaller as the chip is only .18" larger diagonally than the 1.2" chips are.

Posted by Brian Guckian (Member # 1678) on 08-04-2011, 07:08 AM:

Many thanks indeed Mark, I'll go back and see how I got that wrong.

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-04-2011, 02:19 PM:

@ Louis....

No, there have been at least a half dozen per year since Sony released their first 4K projector. A few other studios also release 4K DCP on their big titles. In addition some 70mm classics have been scanned at 8K resolution and are also available to show in 4K. 4K has kinda been put on the back burner because of 3-Dee but now that that is loosing strength and people like Jimmy Cameron are pushing higher quality we will probably see more 4K content per year in the comming years.

Of course "back in the filum days" we didn't see but an occasional 70mm title either... and just on big shows. In these digital days 4K would equate to there being a 70nmm release. Best part is you don't have to switch the gate,trap and lens to do it! Give 4K projection a chance... it's only been available in quantity since right after Cinema Con!

Mark