Film-Tech Forum ARCHIVE: Sony SRX-R220 illumination

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Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-09-2011, 04:07 AM:

Anybody here have first-hand experience with a dim R220?
I've got two houses that are identical. Same size, make, and model screen. Same projector (R220), and roughly the same throw.
Same lamp in both, in fact the dim one has a new lamp (symptoms existed before the lamp was installed).

The good house reads 8fL in 3D and 26 in 2D at full power.

The bad house reads 3.5 and 10 respectively and really looks terrible.

The PS converter is a bit worn in but no more so than the big houses which both read dead-on DCI spec or a bit over and those houses have bigger lamps and have run more hours on the optics.

The house in question has a brand new PRD (problem existed before PRD swap) as well.

Sony's first suggestion was try changing the PS converter. We'll see how that goes since it needs to come out anyhow, but just wondering if anyones experienced this before?

Posted by Ken Lackner (Member # 1002) on 08-10-2011, 05:02 PM:

I've had issues before, and cleaning the PRD significantly improved the quality and amount of light on screen. But you installed a new PRD, so that isn't the issue here. When I clean a PRD, I also inspect and, if necessary, clean each of the elements in the LRD. You inspected the PS Converter, so I'm guessing you inspected the rest of the elements in the LRD. Still, even if the elements in the LRD are dirty, that shouldn't be enough to cause the problem you describe. I wonder if there is an issue with the lens? You could try swapping with another house. Of course one of the first things to check is lamp alignment, but I'm sure you've already done that! [Smile]

What size screen are we talking about? I wonder if the screen could be pushing the limits of Sony's spec for maximum size. Also, since the other houses you mention use larger lamps, there is headroom here, so perhaps simply increasing the lamp size will solve the problem.

Please keep us posted. I'd like to know what the solution is when you find one.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-10-2011, 09:35 PM:

...are your bulbs black after 500 hrs of usage?

Posted by Mark Gulbrandsen (Member # 72) on 08-11-2011, 05:38 PM:

I was going to say... What illumination? [Embarrassed]

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-11-2011, 06:13 PM:

My 220's cook lamps black in 500 hours. Just before replacement time, I start noticing that the white white parts of the image now have a reddish look to them.

My 320's bulbs look like new at 570 hours.

What illumination? Monte, Mark, you read my mind!!

Posted by Tony Bandiera Jr (Member # 2365) on 08-11-2011, 09:41 PM:

One word:

Sony.

As Mythbusters would say, "Well there's your problem."

Anyone else find it odd the Dominic is having so many problems with lamps and illumination lately? Who the hell was messing with his equipment before he got there?

Posted by Jerome Holmes (Member # 5013) on 08-11-2011, 11:26 PM:

He's probably playing with his new spectrometer :-p

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-12-2011, 03:20 AM:

quote: Bruce McGee
My 320's bulbs look like new at 570 hours

What's your secret in keeping them clear .. took out the screen above the bulb that covers the EXH entrance?

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-12-2011, 11:28 AM:

No secret, Monte. They just do this. They have the exact same blowers on the roof as the 220's. Also running them at full power.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-12-2011, 01:05 PM:

quote: Jerome Holmes
He's probably playing with his new spectrometer :-p

You're absolutely correct, Jerry. I need to do both the downtown theaters still. I'm afraid of what I'm going to find in at the 3.

quote: Tony Bandiera Jr was the last to post
Sony.

I knew I was opening a pandoras box with this thread...

Yes, when I do PM on the machine I clean the PRD and at lesat inspect the LRD. Usually the first and last lenses in the LRD are what get dirty but yes, you are correct, they aren't typically going to create that big a problem.

I don't have the measurements for this screen in front of me as i write but it's one of the smalelr houses. Roughly 18' wide.
There's a 3K lamp in the projector (since we also do 3D) and the screen is identical in size to the house pushing 26fL in 2D mode.

quote: Monte L Fullmer
...are your bulbs black after 500 hrs of usage?

No. No they are not.
What lamps are you using?

We tried LTI/Philips and those seemed to go pretty fast. Our old "tech" decided to have the lamps turned off between shows as well.
At that time we would have lamps spontaneously stop striking within a day of the lamp alert coming up.
If they did last longer than that they were black.
The not striking thing went away as soon as we started leaving the lamps on between shows.

The blackness at age issue seemed to be mostly limited to the LTI/Philips lamps.

Now that I can comfotably check my light levels once a month I an be extra certain about what I'm getting [Wink]

In the house I'm using by comparisson to the dim house as well as the 2 larger houses I have:
3K lamp -- double the fL of DCI spec @ 100% power -- I'm running it lower a tad, not by much, and full power in 3D to get all I can out of it.

4K lamp, (roughly) 36x17 screen, exactly at DCI spec @ 85% power currently.

4K lamp, same as the other, exactly at DCI spec @ 99%.

The lamp alert is up on all 3 of those machines. The highest of which was nearing 600 hours I believe. With no striking, flickering, and only slight discoloring on the envelope.

I have noticed some houses more so than others get a little black spot on the front top of the envelope where as others just don't. Perhaps they don't get hot enough.

I feel like it's an airflow thing. Even though we're pushing the > Sony-recommended 550cfm, the 4200w lamphouses are warmer than I'd like them to be.

I could continue rambling but I'll stop now.
[beer]

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-12-2011, 01:29 PM:

quote: Dominic Espinosa
The blackness at age issue seemed to be mostly limited to the LTI/Philips lamps

I even had black ones with Ushio lamps ... bet it's an exhaust issue then ...

Posted by Louis Bornwasser (Member # 3063) on 08-12-2011, 02:02 PM:

SONY, I understand, is about to introduce a DARKNESS meter. Their's will read higher than anyone elses. Louis

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-12-2011, 02:51 PM:

Yellow lamp alert .. definite time for a pull since that means they've passed warranty hours ...

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-13-2011, 12:50 AM:

Monte, does anyone really ever pull them at exactly warranty hours?

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-13-2011, 12:57 AM:

We do .. Mandatory company policy. Any red tail lights or flashing yellow status lights means bulb changeout pronto!

For if a bulb blows and takes a reflector due to going past warranty, the person in charge of bulb maintainence could face termination since the person failed in following company policy.

Thus, I'll catch them when they've got 10 or less hrs on them before warranty hours expire.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-13-2011, 11:39 AM:

That's scary.
So far *knock on wood* in my humble 10 years I've never had a lamp blow in-service that wasn't a dud.
I wonder how many circuits don't change lamps at warranty.
It seems like it's always been the routine everywhere I've worked.
At Wallace I remember we had a policy about not running them past warranty hours, but it would take months to get a new lamp so if you had 2 go around the same time. You'd have to wait and see just which one ws in worse condition (they wouldn't order more than 1 of each size spare, we had 13 screens and it was a new install so all the lamps were close together for a while).

But I digress. If it's not flickering and not dim. I'll let it go for a while. Let's not get silly though. If it's in service more than a year, I'll probably swap it. No sense tempting fate THAT much.

P.S. I just had a horrible nightmare someone with a Film-Tech polo came to one of my locations and nothing was working properly [Eek!]

That was intense...

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-13-2011, 03:10 PM:

quote: Monte L Fullmer
Thus, I'll catch them when they've got 10 or less hrs on them before warranty hours expire.

And with it being digital, I imagine you could have it send you an email when it gets within X number of hours of warranty.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-13-2011, 04:00 PM:

I wish ... I monitor these things on a timely basis, esp when the hours are getting up there, just that when it gets real close and have the time is when I'll do the pulls.

That's what nice on the NEC units is the warning time- like 50hrs -(and flashing tail lights) before warranty expires on the bulb.

quote: Dominic Espinosa
If it's not flickering and not dim. I'll let it go for a while.

But as with all xenon bulbs, their effective light output is within the first 50% of the bulb. Then, the light color begins to looks "blah" until the pulls. And with digital, having a bulb that goes "blah" really looks bad since the natural light reflection off of the DMD's isn't a true color match, ... and esp. with 3D .

Sure, I bet you can run 4K bulbs 300 + % past warranty hours (I've seen CXL 40 bulbs with over 4k hours on them and the envelope still looks great - contacts inside are definitely worn though ..) and they'll never explode and flicker, but just hate to see how the light output looks like..

Film can get away with it with flickering and other stuff that goes on with a tired bulb, but it can really offsets a digital presentation and a flickering bulb in a digital unit is something you DON't want to see the results on the screen.. why of the necessary pulls at warranty.

It can be a bit insane at times... - Monte

Posted by Bruce McGee (Member # 131) on 08-13-2011, 07:50 PM:

I have an image of an exploded lamp in a Sony at work. It's not a pretty site. That reflector looks like it vaporized.

Posted by Brad Miller (Member # 2) on 08-13-2011, 08:09 PM:

Monte, putting the "make believe" Sony thing aside, your findings are exactly opposite mine. I can take a bulb from a film lamphouse that is flickering looks awful and put it in a digital and it looks great. (No doubt there is still flickering going on, but the integrator rod covers it up. The instant I see a flicker in digital, no matter what the hours are it is coming out.)

I have a feeling whoever spec'd your projectors failed to do the job properly to account for bulb degradation.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-14-2011, 12:59 AM:

quote: Bruce McGee
That reflector looks like it vaporized.

..same thing in a BARCO module when a bulb goes - nothing exists.

I attribute our dark bulbs due to poor exhaust - not enough CFM's ... yet, the airflow from the seal blowers seems sufficient, but something still isn't right.

..but, what do I know since I've had no formal digital training, thus some of the stuff that I've been posting here, once again, has been told to me.

Looks like I really need to be a part of many digital installs to really get the skinney on all of this to be more accurate in saying things...

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-15-2011, 04:09 PM:

Monte,
The major manufacturers all offer some type of training for maintenance on the machines.
Sony's I think is the cheapest, ironically.

I could b**** for a while about where they let us down after installation, but one of the most mature things Sony has done, in my opinion, is fixed those issues and admitted where they messed up.
Namely support.
The infrastructure now is phenomenally better than it was 2 years ago. The NOC is MUCH more helpful and knowledgeable than the old Sony support folk.

But I digress. They can teach you most of what you need to know in a 2 day maintenance course, assuming you know very little. The rest is really just experience with the machine.

Having to tear them down once or twice a year for cleaning/parts replacing (our booth air is FILTHY!) has taught me quite a bit that most all manufacturers (not just Sony) arrogantly overlook (except when trying to sell you their service plan).

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-15-2011, 04:22 PM:

Oh, do agree with the experience thing - it's all on your own.

thx - Monte

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-15-2011, 08:49 PM:

NEC/Strong probably are the "cheapest" in the training department...I've heard nothing but "expensive" when it comes to Sony training.

Barco is probably the most comprehensive of the lot. Including what must be done to keep it well maintained. In fact, their software will tell you just what needs to be cleaned and when.

-Steve

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-21-2011, 04:52 PM:

Well. I've learned my lesson about respecting the lamp alerts!

The alert came up last week and the soonest I could get to it was Saturday morning. I was going to anyhow because the light level was dropping; at full power we were getting 14fL in 2D and 4.5 in 3D. And I like to keep it around 16fL in 2D.

Well, as I opened up the cover on the lamphouse I heard a crunchy sound...

Less than 100 hours over and it exploded in the middle of the night after the projector was set to standby.

Yowza.

I'll also add, this is the first time I've ever had a lamp explode in a lamphouse in the 10 years I've been doing this.
I'm still baffled that this lamp was so close to the warranty period still.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-21-2011, 05:00 PM:

Ka-ching!

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-21-2011, 05:06 PM:

Eh. Knock on wood, but they haven't charged us for most of the parts we've had to replace on these bad-boys.
Optical blocks and PS converters come to mind. Though it's really the design that limits the optical block life to ~2 years.

Interestingly they're sending out Sony lamphouses in place of the stock Ushio lamphouses they shipped the R220's with. Same design but with a Sony tweak.
Most notably the front support which SUCKS now.

However the light output on this machine is drastically improved with the Sony module vs the Ushio. So that's nice.

Posted by Steve Guttag (Member # 268) on 08-21-2011, 06:13 PM:

They give you free parts on a lamphouse with an exploded lamp that was over-hours?

Wow!

Posted by Chris Slycord (Member # 4239) on 08-21-2011, 06:40 PM:

I think he means "so far, they haven't made us pay" rather than "we aren't going to pay on this particular incident." I could be wrong, though.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-21-2011, 06:48 PM:

"woo...!" ...tons of money for the reflector alone.... "ouch"

Interesting that it would go while on standby .. unless the bulb accidently got left on and the exhaust was turned off.

That's the biggie with large wattage bulbs: you get them out right after warranty since the quartz can get so weak due to the high heat.

Bummer on this one.

Posted by Dominic Espinosa (Member # 2122) on 08-21-2011, 07:48 PM:

Yeah.
I see no reason we wouldn't have to pay for the new reflector.
Now, personally I don't think we should have to pay for the entire lamphouse. I asked specifically for the reflector but Sony is mandating swapping out the Ushio houses for theirs for whatever reason.

Monte, I ran an SMS snapshot and reviewed all the logs. The machine played out to the end just fine and was placed into standby by the operator.
If the exhaust was turned off but lamp left on the machine would've thrown a temperature error within 30 minutes and shut down.
Likewise if the lamp failed during operation a ballast error would have shown up as well.
Only thing in the log was the media block not being able to set the clock...which happens to us a lot, now that you mention it.

Anywho... Yeah. Sucked. We missed 2 shows of Conan.

Posted by Monte L Fullmer (Member # 2797) on 08-22-2011, 08:44 PM:

...you'll get those two shows back down the road... Good Luck